Newbie with camera identification query / advice

[Dominic]

Hello everyone, I'm new here and would firstly apologise in advance if I do anything wrong with posting messages or break any forum rules in doing so - this will be through my ignorance and not intentionally.

The reason I'm here, apart from my general interest in mahogany cameras, is to ask advice about a large format camera and accessories I've acquired recently.
I'm fairly sure it's a W.Watson & Sons example and perhaps a 'Popular' or 'Premier' model. It's got a large tripod with it, a TT&H lacquered brass lens with rotating waterhouse stops, a box of Marion plates, a heavy red photographer's hood and several double dark slide holders.

The camera is unmarked (except for serial number 10049 stamped underneath), is beautifully made, as are the slide holders and overall is in exceptionally good condition. There is also a hard leather case with a Watson label pasted on the inside top cover. The leather case is in poor condition unfortunately.
I was wondering if anyone wouldn't mind helping to positively identify it for me. I would say that I deal mainly in art but have an interest in these cameras too and may sell this one.

I'll try to work out how to add a photo......!!

If none of the above irritates or offends I would be pleased for any response. Many thanks.

[Oren Grad]

Hello everyone, I'm new here and would firstly apologise in advance if I do anything wrong with posting messages or break any forum rules in doing so - this will be through my ignorance and not intentionally.

If you haven't already done so, please read and make sure you understand the Forum's rules on valuation requests and for-sale postings.

[Dominic]

Hello, I certainly will read the rules again however I would say that I'm not asking for a valuation (only advice on identifying it) nor am I definitely selling the camera and certainly not doing so here. Thanks.

[Steven Tribe]

This is a nice set with original (or contemporary!) tripod/case and plate holders.
The identification is difficult because these cameras can have identical or almost identical features - even when they have different names on them. This is because there are 4 kinds of cameras:

1. cameras that have been made and sold by the "name" on the camera.
2. cameras that have been made by an anon. maker and sold by a dealer without adding his own name.
3. cameras that have been made by an anon. maker and sold by a dealer who has put his name plaque on the camera.
4. cameras that have been made by an anon. maker, had a label put on it by a well known "camera organisation" and then sold by a retailer (Bloggs & son, Norwich).

It be a mistake to think that every camera sold by the "famous names" was made in their own workshops. They used the sub-contractor system, from the few UK camera makers who had dozens of skilled stáff amd machines.

If you post more photos of the details of brasswork and mahogany, it might be posssible to identify the group of cameras it is related to. Earlyphotography.co.uk has quite a listing.

[Tin Can]

Yes, I would also like to see more detailed pics.

Just for my own education.

Congratulations on a nice set. Cases are often in terrible shape as they have done their job protecting their contents.

I hope you use the camera as it looks ready to go!

[Alan Gales]

That's a pretty camera. I'd set that up in your living room as decor. Take some family portraits with it and hang them on the wall behind it!

[Dominic]

Thanks for your comments Steven, Randy & Alan. (Not sure if I'm supposed to reply to each of you individually, I've not been on any forum before).
Yes, I understand there were sub-contractors involved in making these cameras and I guess it makes sense that the subbies wouldn't fit a nameplate for the 'parent' company.
The thing is, this camera is so well engineered and the finish is really superb - even the brass screw head slots are all alinged in one plane. Would a 19thC sub-contractor work to such high standards? Perhaps they might.
Anyway its a lovely piece of work and in excellent condition, the only fault I can see is that one of the hinge pins for the rear screen frame is missing, I'll replace this.
As for your suggestion of using the camera, this made me smile as I haven't a clue where to start !
I had a look at the website you mentioned (and others) and there are certainly a comprehensive selection of cameras there. The nearest I could find was the Watson & Sons 'Popular' model, sold in various sizes - this one has plate sizes of 8 /12'' x 6 1/2''.
Here are some (poor) photos which may help with I.D. Thanks again.139844139845139846139847139844139845139846139847

[Steven Tribe]

"would 19th century sub-contractors work to such high standards?"

Yes they did. Although the UK makers of Gandolfi are well known for top quality, the generation before them were just as good. They had the advantage of quite high production levels where individuals could specialise in specific work with the mahogany, which was still of very good quality in the 1880's and 1890's. There was eventually concentration in the camera world and quality deteriorated rapidly.
That being said, your example of a side-support, tailboard, full plate camera is absolutely exceptional - both as regards manufacturing standards and current condition.

[IanG]

Like Steven said identifying these cameras can be difficult, however it's not a Watson it has some brass-work they didn't use. It may take a lot of searching and be cjhance befeoe you identify who manufactured/sold this camera

Watson and Gandolfi tailboard scammers were similar to those of Perken, Son & Rayment, where Gandolfi had worked. (Gandofi sub-contracted for Watson).

Ian

[Dominic]

Hi, that's interesting Ian.

I wonder if I'm allowed to cut & paste a link to a website that shows an image (drawn) of a Watson 'Popular' camera which, to my inexperienced eye, is an exact copy of my camera ?

[IanG]

Yes you can post a link, however the Watson Popular camera (http://historiccamera.com/cgi-bin/librarium2/pm.cgi?action=app_display&app=datasheet&app_id=1352&) is similar but not identical.

The brass-work that holds the camera to the tailboard is different. So are the front features.

Ian

[Steven Tribe]

No problem - only with the original copyright!

Many of this type of camera were actually mono/stereo which could be used for landscape stereo photos in the horizontal orientation. The lens board could be in the far left and then in the far right. Takes about 30secs, so of no use for portraits!

This needs a fancy plate holder or a deviding septum in the middle of the bellows. With the later system, there are obvious central cut-outs underneath the camera rear.

[Dominic]

Here:

http://www.historiccamera.com/cgi-bin/librarium/pm.cgi?action=display&login=watsonpopular

[Andrew Plume]

yes of course you can - this frequently occurs on here

andrew

[Dominic]

I'd agree that the front standard features are slightly different however some (admittedly not all) of the brasswork is identical - surely this means it is of direct or indirect (sub-contractor) Watson manufacture?
I'd also say that the boards, side support, bellows construction and positioning are as close to the Watson example as they can be.
I don't mind what make it is but there's no denying my camera is remarkably similar to the 'Popular' model, so much so as to make no difference.

[IanG]

Yes in practice it's very similar to a Watson or Gandofi but it's not made by a sub-contractor it's a completely separate manufacturer. Similar cameras were made in India and Japan before WWII as well as by other UK manufacturers.

Ian

[Dominic]

Ok, very interesting.
I've learnt lots about these cameras this weekend - thanks to you chaps.
This is more likely to be 19th century though isn't it - simply because of the design features?

[Steven Tribe]

Yes. The tailboard style with square belows became less popular than the tapered bellows type around the turn of the century, I think. Not so in Germany, where the tailboard reigned supreme with mahogany/walnut/teak large format cameras. The side-wing design was most popular around 1890.

[IanG]

Watson Premier (square bellows) tailboard cameras were still being made & sold after WWII and with book form backs, half plate only. The Acme field camera though had the option of a spring back, they stopped production around 1960 although Gandofi the subcontractor still made similar under their own name.

Ian