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adelorenzo
18-Sep-2015, 14:41
Someone near me is selling a commercial Neschen cold mounting/laminating press quite cheaply. It looks like a good setup for mounting prints but I can't seem to find any information on what pressure activated adhesive might work. It seems like 3M 568 adhesive (http://www.3mcanada.ca/3M/en_CA/company-ca/all-3m-products/~/3M-Positionable-Mounting-Adhesive-568-60-96-cm-x-12-24-m-24-in-x-50-ft-?N=5002385+8709316+8709380+8710660+8710823+8711017+8711729+3293797112&rt=rud) works for most types of prints but, from what I can tell, it is not recommended for fiber prints. Does anyone have any suggestions?

bob carnie
19-Sep-2015, 06:14
Not recommend for Fibre prints is correct.. but good for most other prints including inkjet.
try Drytac that is who I purchase my hot and cold mounting supplies from.

LabRat
19-Sep-2015, 06:53
Adding FYI;

For those who are producing long term prints for collections, the present thinking is that most conservators are against dry (or wet) mounting, as older prints were mounted with different methods, and many have turned out to be a problem, as the mounting materials often have fared worst then the prints themselves, and prints are difficult (or impossible) to remove when mounting materials need replacement (or start damaging the print)...

Granted, today's materials are being made (better) for the long haul, but it's not the future, yet...

Now, most conservators are OK with simply hinging the top edge of a large bordered print (under the overmat) with museum tape, so easy to change later...

You now see unmounted FB prints at museums/collections that are reasonably flat under overmats & glass...

Steve K

Randy Moe
19-Sep-2015, 08:37
Adding FYI;

For those who are producing long term prints for collections, the present thinking is that most conservators are against dry (or wet) mounting, as older prints were mounted with different methods, and many have turned out to be a problem, as the mounting materials often have fared worst then the prints themselves, and prints are difficult (or impossible) to remove when mounting materials need replacement (or start damaging the print)...

Granted, today's materials are being made (better) for the long haul, but it's not the future, yet...

Now, most conservators are OK with simply hinging the top edge of a large bordered print (under the overmat) with museum tape, so easy to change later...

You now see unmounted FB prints at museums/collections that are reasonably flat under overmats & glass...

Steve K

Yes, I see those unflat FB prints often now, it is very noticeable.

Perhaps real artists, which I am not, should make at least 2 prints. One rigid mounted for display and one as backup and tie them together somehow, so they stay together.

Whenever I restore an old print, I scan, fix, print and mount the new over the old in the same frame.

On the rare occasion I make a 'good' wet print, I always make another or 2.

Whenever a student in my darkroom makes a good one, I always tell them make 2 more right now! They give me a look, and then do it. Nobody is ever sorry.

bob carnie
19-Sep-2015, 08:43
My take on this interesting topic is that any print showing in gallery or museum is a DP - Display Print - which is different from PP- Printer Proof, AP- which is Artist Proof, and then Edition Print which is numbered.

So I always mount the DP for best viewing and when sales are made the client is left with the decision to mount or not...

IMO there is nothing worse than a wavy print light behind glass.

The new materials are indeed a different breed of adhesives but caution on the long side for collectors is important.

If someone is buying a piece for the sheer love of the image, and want to display it , not mounting is an issue. specifically regions of the world with huge humidity changes year round.




Adding FYI;

For those who are producing long term prints for collections, the present thinking is that most conservators are against dry (or wet) mounting, as older prints were mounted with different methods, and many have turned out to be a problem, as the mounting materials often have fared worst then the prints themselves, and prints are difficult (or impossible) to remove when mounting materials need replacement (or start damaging the print)...

Granted, today's materials are being made (better) for the long haul, but it's not the future, yet...

Now, most conservators are OK with simply hinging the top edge of a large bordered print (under the overmat) with museum tape, so easy to change later...

You now see unmounted FB prints at museums/collections that are reasonably flat under overmats & glass...

Steve K

Kirk Gittings
19-Sep-2015, 10:55
For those who are producing long term prints for collections, the present thinking is that most conservators are against dry (or wet) mounting, as older prints were mounted with different methods, and many have turned out to be a problem, as the mounting materials often have fared worst then the prints themselves, and prints are difficult (or impossible) to remove when mounting materials need replacement (or start damaging the print)...

While that is true in theory, I have over 200 prints in 26 different public collections-all the silver prints were dry mounted and 90% purchased and not a single time has there ever been a mention of any kind about the dry mounting.

adelorenzo
19-Sep-2015, 22:22
To mount or not to mount? Some good discussion here, thanks everyone for the replies. My issue is that I can never get fiber prints totally flat so I'd like to mount them before framing or otherwise displaying.

Bob - Thanks for the info, I'll check out Drytac. I was hoping you'd respond after I watched your video on cold mounting. I'll post it here in case it is helpful to others:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GefItu0V154&list=LLgrksPvSKTlAgVc_sQiUAGg&index=1

Doremus Scudder
20-Sep-2015, 01:58
[QUOTE=adelorenzo;1276478]To mount or not to mount? Some good discussion here, thanks everyone for the replies. My issue is that I can never get fiber prints totally flat so I'd like to mount them before framing or otherwise displaying.

I dry mount.

My take on the whole mounting issue is this: My prints are trimmed carefully to exactly the borders I want and then get dry-mounted (with buffered, removable dry-mount tissue) onto a cotton rag buffered board. My signature goes on the front, print info on the back. That package is my art work, not the print. If the lifespan of the print/board combination is less than the print alone, so be it. I don't want my work displayed any other way than perfectly flat on a board.

As far as the original question is concerned. I've never heard of a cold-mount adhesive that was recommended for fiber-base prints. If there is one, that might be a good alternative to heat mounting.

...so, is there?

Best,

Doremus

bob carnie
20-Sep-2015, 06:20
Just to be clear this video is showing a lambda flex print being mounted , not a fibre base print this video demo would not work for wet fibre prints.


To mount or not to mount? Some good discussion here, thanks everyone for the replies. My issue is that I can never get fiber prints totally flat so I'd like to mount them before framing or otherwise displaying.

Bob - Thanks for the info, I'll check out Drytac. I was hoping you'd respond after I watched your video on cold mounting. I'll post it here in case it is helpful to others:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GefItu0V154&list=LLgrksPvSKTlAgVc_sQiUAGg&index=1

bob carnie
20-Sep-2015, 06:30
Hi Doremus

No there is not a cold mount adhesive that is archivally recommended- some may post wet glue to masonite- very old method and not good on any level.
I wish there was.


Your method of trimming the print exactly is the way I use to do print presentation, we would open up the window of the Matt to allow signature lines . I saw a very large show of Ansel Adams prints
at Light Impressions in Rochester that was done this way and unfortunately there were issues on the edges, this show made me move from this style of presentation.

The problem in the past with this method, is that the edges over time will frill and crack .... Today I add a generous border to the image and mount and open the window so
the signature if wanted can go directly on the white border around the image area.
This border is quite large in most cases, to allow for any mounting issues on the very edges- if this happens the problem is at least an inch or two from the image area.
Also by including a large white border you can get away with not mounting as the border under Matt helps the print lay flatter. Mural prints require mounting in all cases IMO.






[QUOTE=adelorenzo;1276478]To mount or not to mount? Some good discussion here, thanks everyone for the replies. My issue is that I can never get fiber prints totally flat so I'd like to mount them before framing or otherwise displaying.

I dry mount.

My take on the whole mounting issue is this: My prints are trimmed carefully to exactly the borders I want and then get dry-mounted (with buffered, removable dry-mount tissue) onto a cotton rag buffered board. My signature goes on the front, print info on the back. That package is my art work, not the print. If the lifespan of the print/board combination is less than the print alone, so be it. I don't want my work displayed any other way than perfectly flat on a board.

As far as the original question is concerned. I've never heard of a cold-mount adhesive that was recommended for fiber-base prints. If there is one, that might be a good alternative to heat mounting.

...so, is there?

Best,

Doremus

adelorenzo
20-Sep-2015, 16:13
Just to be clear this video is showing a lambda flex print being mounted , not a fibre base print this video demo would not work for wet fibre prints.

Can you elaborate on why not? I'm new to this whole cold mounting thing but from what I can tell the press I'm going to look at tomorrow is similar to that one, just not as wide.

N Dhananjay
20-Sep-2015, 16:22
I guess the other point over here is that accelerated aging tests show drymounted prints faring better - the drymount may not have been as archival as the print but it offered one more barrier against atmospheric pollutants. Lack of permanence comes in many forms - poor processing, choice of materials, atmospheric pollution etc etc. and balancing different things sometimes leads to choices like these. Cheers, DJ

Doremus Scudder
21-Sep-2015, 02:12
Hi Doremus

No there is not a cold mount adhesive that is archivally recommended- some may post wet glue to masonite- very old method and not good on any level.
I wish there was.


Your method of trimming the print exactly is the way I used to do print presentation, we would open up the window of the Matt to allow signature lines . I saw a very large show of Ansel Adams prints at Light Impressions in Rochester that was done this way and unfortunately there were issues on the edges, this show made me move from this style of presentation.

The problem in the past with this method, is that the edges over time will frill and crack .... Today I add a generous border to the image and mount and open the window so the signature if wanted can go directly on the white border around the image area. This border is quite large in most cases, to allow for any mounting issues on the very edges- if this happens the problem is at least an inch or two from the image area.
Also by including a large white border you can get away with not mounting as the border under Matt helps the print lay flatter. Mural prints require mounting in all cases IMO.


Thanks Bob, That's kind of what I thought. Strange that you've experienced issues with the edges of prints when dry mounting. I never have, in 30+ years. For me, I need exact borders, since I often plan lines to go exactly out a corner or the like, so I print oversize, then (after tacking on the mounting tissue) I trim the print with a rotary trimmer to the desired framing. The print then gets mounted. I've never had a frilled edge... sounds a bit like bad handling to me.

Best,

Doremus

Darko Pozar
21-Sep-2015, 02:59
For dry cold mounting we utilised Crescent Perfect Mount...
This acid-free mounting board carries a pH neutral, pressure-activated adhesive. It permits easy positioning and repositioning until firm pressure is applied with a burnisher or press, forming a permanent bond.

However, if our clients felt sceptical, we would recommend hinge mounting with Museum Tape, and have the back of the print sitting on 100% acid free Barrier Paper and secured in the frame mount with 100% acid free foam board.
Yes we may have experienced some waviness in the print surface, but there was comfort with the fact that the print could always be remounted in a window mat and reframed without any problems in the future...

bob carnie
21-Sep-2015, 06:13
Basically the curl or waviness will cause creasing in the mount. Also historically the cold adhesives would not give a good enough bond and the fibre print would bubble up over time...
I think anything is possible with enough effort, I mentioned wet glue in the past was used for fibre paper...

We have a flo mount tissue that is basically put down on the fiber print and then with the rollers low pressure put in place then hot mount to diabond ..

I am not a fan of this as it requires hot press to flatten print then handling with tissue, then going through the rollers, then hot press.. at specific temp... IMO too much handling.

If your goal is fibre base prints then hinge methods mentioned above or hot mounting is the way to go.


Can you elaborate on why not? I'm new to this whole cold mounting thing but from what I can tell the press I'm going to look at tomorrow is similar to that one, just not as wide.

bob carnie
21-Sep-2015, 06:16
This is much like the adhesives we use except we apply to the substrates. This material is not recommended for fibre base prints, but for general rc based photographs or inkjets.

I agree with the hinge mounting Tape if the client is unsure.



For dry cold mounting we utilised Crescent Perfect Mount...
This acid-free mounting board carries a pH neutral, pressure-activated adhesive. It permits easy positioning and repositioning until firm pressure is applied with a burnisher or press, forming a permanent bond.

However, if our clients felt sceptical, we would recommend hinge mounting with Museum Tape, and have the back of the print sitting on 100% acid free Barrier Paper and secured in the frame mount with 100% acid free foam board.
Yes we may have experienced some waviness in the print surface, but there was comfort with the fact that the print could always be remounted in a window mat and reframed without any problems in the future...

Drew Wiley
21-Sep-2015, 09:01
Large RC or polyester prints, or big inkjets, simply look like hell if they're not cold mounted with some kind of adhesive foil. There are various manufacturers of
the adhesive, Seal, MacTac, etc. You have to know what you are doing, and the adhesive has to be reasonably fresh. Otherwise, it's damn easy to ruin your prints. Small prints (up to 16x20) can be done with something more forgiving like 3M repositionable sheets. The substrate is important and must be smooth. And a serious
roller press is needed for anything truly permanent. That this somehow diminishes the value of a color print is utter nonsense if it is done correctly. Fiber-based
prints are a completely different story. Drymounting is far safer and easier in that case. Then there is the option of wet mounting, itself rather tricky.

Darko Pozar
22-Sep-2015, 03:35
As per Kodak Technical Data Sheet/Black and White Paper June 2005 G5 "Kodak Professional Azo Paper

Mounting:
Mounting provides rigidity, helps prevent wrinkling, and gives some physical protection to prints.
For long-term keeping, it is best not to use adhesives or dry-mounting tissue. The best mounting method is to use plastic corners or hinge the print by using Japanese rice paper and water-soluble wheat paste. Do not use rubber cement, contact cement, or animal glue. If you must use a liquid adhesive, use starch paste or polyvinyl chloride.
If you choose to dry-mount your prints, use acid-free, pH-buffered, conservation-quality mounting board and conservation-quality mounting tissue.
An overmat, or window mat, will help protect a print from abrasion, keep the emulsion away from the glass in a frame, and provide a neutral or complementary field. Be sure to use conservation-quality mat boards and backing and non-reactive framing materials.
For more information on laminating, lacquering, and mounting, see KODAK Publication No. E-67, Finishing Prints on KODAK Water-Resistant Papers, or No. F-35, Protecting and Displaying Black-and-White Prints.

bob carnie
22-Sep-2015, 05:59
Darko - what year was that published?, the adhesives made a major change and are continuing to change.

I would suggest this info is about 50 years old.

As per Kodak Technical Data Sheet/Black and White Paper June 2005 G5 "Kodak Professional Azo Paper

Mounting:
Mounting provides rigidity, helps prevent wrinkling, and gives some physical protection to prints.
For long-term keeping, it is best not to use adhesives or dry-mounting tissue. The best mounting method is to use plastic corners or hinge the print by using Japanese rice paper and water-soluble wheat paste. Do not use rubber cement, contact cement, or animal glue. If you must use a liquid adhesive, use starch paste or polyvinyl chloride.
If you choose to dry-mount your prints, use acid-free, pH-buffered, conservation-quality mounting board and conservation-quality mounting tissue.
An overmat, or window mat, will help protect a print from abrasion, keep the emulsion away from the glass in a frame, and provide a neutral or complementary field. Be sure to use conservation-quality mat boards and backing and non-reactive framing materials.
For more information on laminating, lacquering, and mounting, see KODAK Publication No. E-67, Finishing Prints on KODAK Water-Resistant Papers, or No. F-35, Protecting and Displaying Black-and-White Prints.

Drew Wiley
22-Sep-2015, 09:57
It's not only archaic information, but represents only about .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % of the professional opinion out there.

Darko Pozar
22-Sep-2015, 15:51
[QUOTE=bob carnie;1276954]Darko - what year was that published?, the adhesives made a major change and are continuing to change.

I would suggest this info is about 50 years old.


Perhaps this information is archaic.
I welcome the new acid and lignin free boards used for permanent archival mounting.

The crucial point of the dry mounting technique is that itīs a non-reversible system. Once the print has been fixed to the matt board, they are going to be together forever. So if the matt board is damaged or the print needs restoration, it is almost impossible to separate the two elements without damaging them.

Drew Wiley
22-Sep-2015, 16:12
So what? At least you're handling the board and not the print itself. At least the back is sealed from atmospheric contaminants. The print is far less likely to become creased or torn.

Randy Moe
22-Sep-2015, 18:37
How old are the oldest hot press dry mount FB prints in your possession? Anybody please answer.

Mine are only 20 years old and are perfect, no signs of any issue, even the ones I have touching glass, all hung indoor climate controlled Chicago Apt.

I did my own mounting, 8x10's to 16x20.

Ian Gordon Bilson
22-Sep-2015, 23:03
Interesting question. My oldest original print dates from around 1920. There is no sign of lifting on the image. Dry mounted? - I'd bet money on it. And I have seen an ancient book press adapted to electricity, complete with the quaint old fabric wrapped power cable. So I reckon portrait studios in my neck of the woods were heat mounting all day long,probably with shellac based tissue
How old are the oldest hot press dry mount FB prints in your possession? Anybody please answer.

Mine are only 20 years old and are perfect, no signs of any issue, even the ones I have touching glass, all hung indoor climate controlled Chicago Apt.

I did my own mounting, 8x10's to 16x20.

Ian Gordon Bilson
22-Sep-2015, 23:04
Interesting question. My oldest original print dates from around 1920. There is no sign of lifting on the image. Dry mounted? - I'd bet money on it. And I have seen an ancient book press adapted to electricity, complete with the quaint old fabric wrapped power cable. So I reckon portrait studios in my neck of the woods were heat mounting all day long,probably with shellac based tissue
How old are the oldest hot press dry mount FB prints in your possession? Anybody please answer.

Mine are only 20 years old and are perfect, no signs of any issue, even the ones I have touching glass, all hung indoor climate controlled Chicago Apt.

I did my own mounting, 8x10's to 16x20.

bob carnie
23-Sep-2015, 06:09
That is a good point and important to consider.


[QUOTE=bob carnie;1276954]Darko - what year was that published?, the adhesives made a major change and are continuing to change.

I would suggest this info is about 50 years old.


Perhaps this information is archaic.
I welcome the new acid and lignin free boards used for permanent archival mounting.

The crucial point of the dry mounting technique is that itīs a non-reversible system. Once the print has been fixed to the matt board, they are going to be together forever. So if the matt board is damaged or the print needs restoration, it is almost impossible to separate the two elements without damaging them.

bob carnie
23-Sep-2015, 06:13
The hydrolic(sp)press you see in the background of my hot mounting video www.bobcarnieprintmaking.ca

is the one I worked on my first job in Toronto- 1978/79 and it was old then..

I retired this beast for scrap last year, basically over a ton in weight and my new location was impossible for it to come to. The old bugger leaked a bit and I think
it needed some new heating elements in the platen but otherwise worked extremely well.

I just purchased a new Drytac 32 x44 hot press with vacuum and I expect it to last for the rest of my printing days.

How old are the oldest hot press dry mount FB prints in your possession? Anybody please answer.

Mine are only 20 years old and are perfect, no signs of any issue, even the ones I have touching glass, all hung indoor climate controlled Chicago Apt.

I did my own mounting, 8x10's to 16x20.

cowanw
23-Sep-2015, 06:29
Interesting question. My oldest original print dates from around 1920. There is no sign of lifting on the image. Dry mounted? - I'd bet money on it. And I have seen an ancient book press adapted to electricity, complete with the quaint old fabric wrapped power cable. So I reckon portrait studios in my neck of the woods were heat mounting all day long,probably with shellac based tissue

Or perhaps with wax based tissue, which I have a small stash of; and which does a aesthetically excellent job, however archaic (or archival) it is or is not.

LabRat
23-Sep-2015, 06:55
I have worked with conservators and museums/collections/archives many times... I would not want to be a conservator!!!!!! It was my job to do the copy work, but some of the old mounted works would send a chill down my spine!!! Old mountings that were half eaten with termites, badly discoloring/decaying, water damage, horrible color choices (harvest, anyone!?!!!), and the saddest, a set of dye transfers from 8X10 camera originals of production stills from C.B. DeMille epics that were pasted to decaying mounts that were soaking sulfur into the prints, but could not be removed as it would require soaking or steaming the mount, and 'ya can't get that dye transfer wet!!!!!

Yikes!!!!!!!!

Steve K

Randy Moe
23-Sep-2015, 17:39
Good suggestions about the 'dry' glue. We may soon have to make that too.

Drew Wiley
24-Sep-2015, 08:57
I've got my share of mucilage-glued albumens and cyanotypes well over a hundred years old on plain bad cardboard. These seem to be fairly acid-tolerant and
have fared well. Early silver prints under such conditions haven't. And older prints like tintypes or Daugg. had their own supports, of course. Drymounting was a
significant leap forward, even on less than ideal substrates, because the tissue itself (esp the old shellac-based ones) formed a barrier to moisture and acid migration. I can't think of any pro who presented framed work, or put in on the wall, who wasn't into drymounting by at least 1950. It has a helluva a good track
record.

adelorenzo
24-Sep-2015, 09:56
I didn't meant to start a debate on mounting, although it has been very interesting to follow the conversation. Until galleries start calling me about my prints I'm not too worried about the collectible or archival nature of mounting them. What I am concerned about is getting fiber prints flat, which is why I was hoping cold mounting would work.

I do use hinge mounting under a mat but the wavy print edges drive me nuts. A heated dry mount press would be perfect but the cost of buying one and shipping it up here would be 10x the cost of the cold mount press for sale locally. Hence I was hoping that cold mounting would work out for me but from what I understand here the answer is no.

Randy Moe
24-Sep-2015, 19:15
I have heard of, but never seen anyone use an iron...

You have a long winter coming, perhaps there are possibilities.

Flight of the Phoenix (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1007555-flight_of_the_phoenix/) is a favorite movie. The original, never saw the remake.

Chuck S.
24-Sep-2015, 23:20
Used this (http://www.drytac.com/substrates/canvas/lamin-all-adhesive.html) to cold mount fiber and RC prints in a cold vacuum press for years up until roughly 25 years ago when I sold off the lab. There have been no separations, bubbles, or discoloration in any of my prints stored or displayed since that time. This wasn't really 'wet' mounting, since only a very thin coat was applied between a dry mount board and a dry print.

Don't know how suitable it would be in a roller press, but it seems like it might work, since it can be used without a press at all. Why not contact the distributor or manufacturer and ask their opinion?

Single quart bottles can be ordered from many art supply stores for around $20.

LabRat
25-Sep-2015, 06:58
BTW, don't get me wrong, I'm not against cold or hot mounting... I have done/do plenty... My point is that there are other options to explore also, and it's good to do research for the good/bad points of any process before jumping in headfirst...

But for the OP, getting a hot press (somehow) is your best bet... They are common in the graphics/arts/photo/printing/framing/education communities, and there should one around sooner or later... (For at least flattening FB prints, and mounting if you wish...)

Now, if they give you that machine for little or nothing.... (But you will hate having to move it!!!!)

Steve K

LabRat
25-Sep-2015, 07:41
Oh, and let me add that you will have to hot press the prints to flatten them before mounting, so that press might be redundant (if you have a hot press...)

But if there is any chance you will be mounting color prints, or inkjets, there's a golden opportunity with that cold press...

But you will have to give it a place to live, and a name...

Steve K