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GoldSpanner
30-Aug-2015, 11:30
Hi Guys! My first post!

Looking to buy my first 4x5 soon (probably will be a Toyo 45a), and have mostly figured it all out apart from which filter system I can use.
I'll be using some sort of 90mm lens, so presumably screw-in filters will risk vignetting?
I'll need to use and ND and an orange/red simultaneously, so will some sort of square filter system be the best to look at?
Hitech make this system (https://www.formatt-hitech.com/en/products/Lucroit-100mm-Holder-Kits~223.html), which looks like the right sort of thing - anyone used it?

Sorry if this question has been asked before, but I did do a search for it and came up with nothing specific.

Thanks!

Alex

Bob Salomon
30-Aug-2015, 11:44
Before you decide see first if you will want a center filter to control the fall-off. If so then you will need a larger filter holder to clear the CF.

Eric Woodbury
30-Aug-2015, 11:44
Screw-in filters shouldn't vignette if you stop down just a little. I use 4x4 gels (polyester) in cardboard frames and hold them by hand or with that holder that uses a rubber band (Lee Gel Snap). Some folks tape gels to the rear of the lens inside the camera, thus preventing wind issues and sun glints.

GoldSpanner
30-Aug-2015, 12:03
Thanks for the replies!

Bob: I was worried someone would say that! I'm gonna get the largest aperture 90mm I can (4.5 if I'm correct?), so hopefully that should minimise fall off. I can deal with a little vignetting, and will be stopped down most or all of the time. On the other hand, I'll definitely be using the movements, so perhaps a CF will be needed. No doubt I'll have to decide before picking a filter system.

Eric: You might be right, and if I were to get screw-ins, they'd definitely be of the slim-ring variety. However, if I'm correct, a 4.5/90mm has a filter thread of 82mm, and most filters aren't made any larger (at the least ones I'd like to use), otherwise I'd get an adapter for a larger size. Would be good to hear from someone who has stacked a couple of rings on this type of lens.

Bob Salomon
30-Aug-2015, 13:27
Thanks for the replies!

Bob: I was worried someone would say that! I'm gonna get the largest aperture 90mm I can (4.5 if I'm correct?), so hopefully that should minimise fall off. I can deal with a little vignetting, and will be stopped down most or all of the time. On the other hand, I'll definitely be using the movements, so perhaps a CF will be needed. No doubt I'll have to decide before picking a filter system.

Eric: You might be right, and if I were to get screw-ins, they'd definitely be of the slim-ring variety. However, if I'm correct, a 4.5/90mm has a filter thread of 82mm, and most filters aren't made any larger (at the least ones I'd like to use), otherwise I'd get an adapter for a larger size. Would be good to hear from someone who has stacked a couple of rings on this type of lens.

The faster lens will still have about as much fall-off as the slower one. But since the faster lens covers a larger circle it may not be as noticeable, unless you use rise fall and move off the center of the circle.

Ian Gordon Bilson
30-Aug-2015, 22:00
You could also consider jerry-rigging something to fit on the rear of the lens..no flare/size problems,and very flexible on large format.

Bob Salomon
31-Aug-2015, 05:07
You could also consider jerry-rigging something to fit on the rear of the lens..no flare/size problems,and very flexible on large format.

Only drawback is that rear mounted filters will degrade the image. This lens was made for front mount filters for optimal performance.

vinny
31-Aug-2015, 05:29
I use the Lee system (flexible compendium shade with 2 slots) for all of my lenses including the 90mm nikkor 4.5. Nikon didn't make a center filter for this lens.
The gadget you linked to looks quite hokey, I'd avoid it. If you're not going to get a Lee, get a lee compatible holder off ebay.

Corran
31-Aug-2015, 06:15
FYI, on many occasions I've used a red filter, polarizer, AND a Lee holder w/ GND filter on my Nikkor 90mm f/8 with no vignetting - even has a bit of movement left, but not much.

Don't worry too much about that. And forget the f/4.5 unless you really need it, like if you are working indoors. The smaller Nikkor (and Schneider equivalent) use 67mm filters. Same-ish image circle.

Old-N-Feeble
31-Aug-2015, 08:08
If you decide to try filters on the rear of the lens then consider gels. Those won't cause focus shift nor image degradation.

Bob Salomon
31-Aug-2015, 08:41
If you decide to try filters on the rear of the lens then consider gels. Those won't cause focus shift nor image degradation.

As much as thicker glass or acrylics.. Anything behind the rear element, regardless of its thickness, will cause a focus shift of 1/3 rd the thickness of whatever it is. But a scratch, fingerprint, dust, etc on a gel behind the lens is just as detrimental as if they were on glass behind the lens. So is lack of filter flatness with a gel.

Old-N-Feeble
31-Aug-2015, 09:34
As much as thicker glass or acrylics.. Anything behind the rear element, regardless of its thickness, will cause a focus shift of 1/3 rd the thickness of whatever it is. But a scratch, fingerprint, dust, etc on a gel behind the lens is just as detrimental as if they were on glass behind the lens. So is lack of filter flatness with a gel.

Those are valid points... I just assume no one would use a damaged gel filter. But, of course, assumptions are just that.

Doremus Scudder
31-Aug-2015, 11:14
Bob is correct in everything he says.... however, optimum performance is not always necessary or possible. You need to find the right system for the type of work you do.

A few thoughts about the issues raised:

Light fall-off: You can't avoid this with a 90mm (or shorter) lens, but it may not be that objectionable or correctable. If you plan on shooting black-and-white, then much of the fall-off problem can be corrected at the printing stage (the same with color neg and digital processing). You just need to be sure you give adequate exposure (i.e., be aware that the edges and corners are getting less exposure than the meter reading!). If you are doing critical work with transparencies, then a center filter might be worth investing in. FWIW, I and many others use a 90mm regularly without a center filter.

Vignetting: One thin screw-on filter on the front of a 90mm lens should not be a problem with regards to vignetting. Two will start to impinge on the image circle, but you can avoid vignetting by not using the extremes of movements that would show vignetting. I like the smaller f/8 version of the 90mm for its size and weight, and I have done my share of vignetting with it, both from filters and from simply using more movements than the (somewhat smaller than the f/4.5 90s) image circle can handle. One way to avoid filter vignetting is to buy a step-up ring and use a couple sizes larger filters on you 90mm. You could just leave the step-up ring in place. This is more expensive, of course, but a viable solution. (If you get a center filter, it acts as a step-up ring as well, forcing you to buy larger filters). Check for vignetting by stopping down to taking aperture and making sure you can see the entire aperture from the cut-corners of your ground glass (or see all corners when looking back through the lens). One more comment here since you're stacking filters: If you don't use movements, two screw-in filters will work fine; it's when you need to use the edges of the image circle that you'll get into trouble.

The filter system you linked to looks alright to me, kind of like a poor-man's mat box. It's hard to tell if it's well built, but if so, then the issue (since you need to stack filters) would be to ensure that 100mm filters will be large enough to not vignette that far away from the lens. You'd have to try it out.

Placing filters behind the lens: Yes, as Bob says, you risk degrading the image. The amount of degradation depends on the optical quality of the filter you use and it's flatness when mounted behind the lens. I have used good quality coated glass filters behind the lens (B+H or Heliopan) and had good results. I could see no noticeable degradation in 11x14 enlargements. Keep in mind that you'll have to focus with the rear filter in place, especially if it's glass, as it will cause a focus shift. Doing this with a stronger ND filter might present difficulties. Optical gels behind the lens are best in regard to focus shift, but they must be mounted flat and parallel (they used to make gel holders for the back of lenses...) and kept meticulously clean. I have a bunch of gels that I used to use in the studio, but they are just impractical for the kind of field work I do now. I've settled on good-quality screw-in filters.

If you need the faster f/4.5 lens or not: If you aren't shooting with lots of movement, you can easily get by with one of the slower f/8-f/6.3 lenses (the Nikkor has the largest image circle in this category). The image quality is equal if not superior. I find focusing with the slower lenses to be no problem (I have a host of smaller slower lenses including the Nikkor M f/9 lenses, the Fujinon a f/9 lenses, etc.). The upside is that the lens will be smaller, lighter and take smaller (and thus less-expensive) filters. Stepping up to larger filters to avoid vignetting would be cheaper too. If you plan to use a lot of front rise or tilt/swing (e.g., for architecture or if you really needed that extra stop for some reason) then maybe the faster lens would be justified.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Bob Salomon
31-Aug-2015, 13:04
Bob is correct in everything he says.... however, optimum performance is not always necessary or possible. You need to find the right system for the type of work you do.

A few thoughts about the issues raised:

Light fall-off: You can't avoid this with a 90mm (or shorter) lens, but it may not be that objectionable or correctable. If you plan on shooting black-and-white, then much of the fall-off problem can be corrected at the printing stage (the same with color neg and digital processing). You just need to be sure you give adequate exposure (i.e., be aware that the edges and corners are getting less exposure than the meter reading!). If you are doing critical work with transparencies, then a center filter might be worth investing in. FWIW, I and many others use a 90mm regularly without a center filter.

Vignetting: One thin screw-on filter on the front of a 90mm lens should not be a problem with regards to vignetting. Two will start to impinge on the image circle, but you can avoid vignetting by not using the extremes of movements that would show vignetting. I like the smaller f/8 version of the 90mm for its size and weight, and I have done my share of vignetting with it, both from filters and from simply using more movements than the (somewhat smaller than the f/4.5 90s) image circle can handle. One way to avoid filter vignetting is to buy a step-up ring and use a couple sizes larger filters on you 90mm. You could just leave the step-up ring in place. This is more expensive, of course, but a viable solution. (If you get a center filter, it acts as a step-up ring as well, forcing you to buy larger filters). Check for vignetting by stopping down to taking aperture and making sure you can see the entire aperture from the cut-corners of your ground glass (or see all corners when looking back through the lens). One more comment here since you're stacking filters: If you don't use movements, two screw-in filters will work fine; it's when you need to use the edges of the image circle that you'll get into trouble.

The filter system you linked to looks alright to me, kind of like a poor-man's mat box. It's hard to tell if it's well built, but if so, then the issue (since you need to stack filters) would be to ensure that 100mm filters will be large enough to not vignette that far away from the lens. You'd have to try it out.

Placing filters behind the lens: Yes, as Bob says, you risk degrading the image. The amount of degradation depends on the optical quality of the filter you use and it's flatness when mounted behind the lens. I have used good quality coated glass filters behind the lens (B+H or Heliopan) and had good results. I could see no noticeable degradation in 11x14 enlargements. Keep in mind that you'll have to focus with the rear filter in place, especially if it's glass, as it will cause a focus shift. Doing this with a stronger ND filter might present difficulties. Optical gels behind the lens are best in regard to focus shift, but they must be mounted flat and parallel (they used to make gel holders for the back of lenses...) and kept meticulously clean. I have a bunch of gels that I used to use in the studio, but they are just impractical for the kind of field work I do now. I've settled on good-quality screw-in filters.

If you need the faster f/4.5 lens or not: If you aren't shooting with lots of movement, you can easily get by with one of the slower f/8-f/6.3 lenses (the Nikkor has the largest image circle in this category). The image quality is equal if not superior. I find focusing with the slower lenses to be no problem (I have a host of smaller slower lenses including the Nikkor M f/9 lenses, the Fujinon a f/9 lenses, etc.). The upside is that the lens will be smaller, lighter and take smaller (and thus less-expensive) filters. Stepping up to larger filters to avoid vignetting would be cheaper too. If you plan to use a lot of front rise or tilt/swing (e.g., for architecture or if you really needed that extra stop for some reason) then maybe the faster lens would be justified.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Just to be sure. B&H is a camera store. They do not make filters. Maybe you meant B+W? B &W is black and white, not a filter company.

Old-N-Feeble
31-Aug-2015, 17:49
:rolleyes:

Huub
1-Sep-2015, 00:49
Doremus sums it up pretty well regarding the use of filters and especially in doing black and white the fall off with a 90 mm is easely solved in the printing stage. One more thing to consider is that your camera of choice doesn't allow for massive amounts of movements. Using either an older f8 SA or the f6.8 Grandagon i had a hard time to vignet those lenses on my old 45A, even when stacking two filters.

xkaes
2-Sep-2015, 18:17
I have several wide-angles -- even the Schnieder 47mm XL -- which has a 67mm filter thread. As I normally have a UV filter on my lenses, and sometimes want to add one or two more, I opted to standardize ALL of my lenses to 77mm filter threads. This allows me to put three filters on any lens without vignetting. Depending on the filter thread of the lens you will use, you might need to use a step-up ring to avoid vignetting. The size and need for a step up ring depends on the angle of coverage of the lens you will use and the filter thread on that lens. You might not need a step-up ring at all, but if you do, you will need to determine when vignetting will start to occur. First test your lens with three filters (or the maximum number you would ever use). No vignetting? No problem. Vignetting? Try a step-up ring that you think might work and retest. No need to buy larger filters just yet -- place your current filters inside the step-up ring and retest -- until you get the right step-up ring -- then order filters. Getting additional step-up rings to the same size, for your other lenses, will make your life easier.

Square filter holders have to be pretty wide to avoid vignetting. Cokin, for example, offers the small A and large P holders, but even the large holder is a problem with very wide lenses, because they stick out so far. It's like putting five round filters on the lens. I use a Cokin P holder.

I'd avoid the rear filter approach. It's too big a pain. The only rear filters I use are round filters on the rear of my Mamiya 37mm fisheye -- with step-up rings from 40.5mm to 77mm. You can read about it and see all of Fuji's LF lenses at:

www.subclub.org/fujinon/index.htm

Bob Salomon
3-Sep-2015, 04:27
I have several wide-angles -- even the Schnieder 47mm XL -- which has a 67mm filter thread. As I normally have a UV filter on my lenses, and sometimes want to add one or two more, I opted to standardize ALL of my lenses to 77mm filter threads. This allows me to put three filters on any lens without vignetting. Depending on the filter thread of the lens you will use, you might need to use a step-up ring to avoid vignetting. The size and need for a step up ring depends on the angle of coverage of the lens you will use and the filter thread on that lens. You might not need a step-up ring at all, but if you do, you will need to determine when vignetting will start to occur. First test your lens with three filters (or the maximum number you would ever use). No vignetting? No problem. Vignetting? Try a step-up ring that you think might work and retest. No need to buy larger filters just yet -- place your current filters inside the step-up ring and retest -- until you get the right step-up ring -- then order filters. Getting additional step-up rings to the same size, for your other lenses, will make your life easier.

Square filter holders have to be pretty wide to avoid vignetting. Cokin, for example, offers the small A and large P holders, but even the large holder is a problem with very wide lenses, because they stick out so far. It's like putting five round filters on the lens. I use a Cokin P holder.

I'd avoid the rear filter approach. It's too big a pain. The only rear filters I use are round filters on the rear of my Mamiya 37mm fisheye -- with step-up rings from 40.5mm to 77mm. You can read about it and see all of Fuji's LF lenses at:

www.subclub.org/fujinon/index.htm

This presumes no or very little movements, especially tilts and swings with a base tilt camera.

tgtaylor
3-Sep-2015, 09:35
Here's what I use with my Toyo's: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/387303-REG/Cokin_CBZ100_Z_PRO_Filter_Holder_Requires.html

Get one adapter ring that will mount on the filter threads of your largest lens and stop-down rings for the rest of your lens. I keep all mounted on the holder, which I store in a Lee case, and just remove those not needed. Initially I used HiTech and resins for grads and ND and Cokin resin for B&W, color, and IR. I have since migrated over to Schneider and Format glass filters for B&W & Color. If the diameter of your lens is greater than 95mm, you'll have to use the Cokin X-Pro: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/168533-REG/Cokin_CX499_X_Pro_Universal_Adapter_Ring.html

Thomas

xkaes
3-Sep-2015, 13:21
This presumes no or very little movements, especially tilts and swings with a base tilt camera.

Sure, but you can test this -- if you happen to know how much swinging/tilting/shifting/rising you will do with the lens. With many wide-angle lenses their is little room for movements even without any filters! And with a pretty collapsed bellows you are physically limited to small movements anyway. My 47mm just barely covers 4x5 but I can't move much at infinity even with a recessed board due to the nearly completely collapsed bellows. My 105mm just barely covers 4x5 but I can't move much at infinity due to the small image circle. But I find I don't need, nor use, much movement with my very wide-angle lenses.

Bob Salomon
3-Sep-2015, 13:55
Sure, but you can test this -- if you happen to know how much swinging/tilting/shifting/rising you will do with the lens. With many wide-angle lenses their is little room for movements even without any filters! And with a pretty collapsed bellows you are physically limited to small movements anyway. My 47mm just barely covers 4x5 but I can't move much at infinity even with a recessed board due to the nearly completely collapsed bellows. My 105mm just barely covers 4x5 but I can't move much at infinity due to the small image circle. But I find I don't need, nor use, much movement with my very wide-angle lenses.

That is with your camera. But there are cameras with much more flexible bellows, there are cameras that can use recessed boards and there are cameras that accept a bag bellows. All of these can let you use as much movement as the lens allows the camera of your choice. In other words, themovementsare limited only by the bellows and the lens coverage on these cameras and not because of restrictions in the camera's design.

xkaes
3-Sep-2015, 18:45
I ran some tests today to check things out for my own benefit, but others on this board might find it helpful. I know the orginal discussion was about 90mm lenses, but I did not use a 90mm lens. I decided not to use a 90mm lens because I don't have one. I have a Schnieder 47mm XL f5.6, Fujinon SWD 75mm f5.6 and a Fujinon NSW 105mm f5.6. Since the 47mm and 105mm have such small image circles, 166mm and 174mm respectively, I did not see the point. With the 47mm, I can move about 6mm, and with the 105mm about 10mm. On my cameras that's about all I can move due to the bellows restriction. With the 105mm, I can move more than 10mm, but get vignetting at that point without any filters.

So I opted to test my 75mm which has a much larger image circle -- 196mm -- so I can move about 25mm before I get vignetting without any filters. That's about all I would need anyway. Plus this 75mm lens has a flange focal length of 85mm on a bellows that collapses to 65mm. So there is plenty of room to move with this lens. I first tested the lens, focused at infinity, and did not see any vignetting with a 25mm rise. I then added a 67mm UV filter and 67-to-77mm step up ring. Again, there was no vignetting with a 25mm move. I then started adding filters. When I added two -- that makes more than 3 filters with the UV and step-up ring. Here I saw a tiny bit of vignetting at 25mm. If I needed to get to a 25mm move, I could always remove the UV filter. And if I didn't need a 25mm move, I could add at least one or two more filters -- a very unlikely scenario.

I then added the Cokin P adapter to the 67mm UV and step-up ring. I could not get close to a 25mm move before vignetting occurred. But I can still use the Cokin P as long as I don't need lots of movement. So a 90mm should work fine with either of these two approaches, assuming it has as wide an image circle.

Then just for kicks, I put on a #2 close-up filter. Since this shortens the focal length I had to refocus, shortening the bellows. With the UV filter, step up ring and #2 close-up filter, I saw a tiny bit of vignetting with a 25mm move. So this approach will improve my lens flexibility especially when I don't need much movement.

I have #1, #2, #4 and #10 77mm close-up lenses. They can be used singly or stacked. I did not purchase these to use as close-up lenses nor to shorten the focal length of my lenses. I got them to use as soft-focus lenses. If you remove the glass from a #1 Copal shutter and find or make an adapter to attach the close-up lens to the shutter, you end up with a very nice soft-focus lens -- on the cheap. The image is nice and bright and easy to focus. You can use it wide open for very soft effects or stop down for a sharper image. You need to figure out what the f-stops really are, but that it not too difficult. I have a Copal #1 to Leica adapter and use step-up rings to get to 77mm. Actually smaller Close-up filters will work just fine as well. The #10 is a 100mm lens on a 4x5 camera, for example -- pretty wide, actually. Stack a #1, #2, #4 and #10 together and you get a 60mm lens!

So I encourage anyone interested to go out and test your lenses. It's not only fun, but helpful.

xkaes
3-Sep-2015, 18:57
Anyone know of a formula -- or other way -- to calculate the "new" focal length when you add a close-up filter to a given lenses?