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jeremyh88.jh
28-Aug-2015, 18:43
I am looking into getting into 4x5 and don't have room to setup a full darkroom so am looking at different forms of daylight developing for 4x5. I am wondering if any one has used the taco method and H an opinion on it? Does it work, will a hair tie leave a mark ect.

vinny
28-Aug-2015, 18:49
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?46463-taco-method-elastic-re-use
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?48316-quot-Taco-quot-methos-developing-problem-some-newbie-questions
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?117824-Mod-54-opinions

Tim Meisburger
28-Aug-2015, 19:12
It works fine.

diversey
28-Aug-2015, 20:05
The best way to develop 4x5 films in daylight is to use a unicolor roller with a unicolor 8x10 print drum for 2 4x5 films or jobo 3006 for 6 4x5 films.
Trouble free!

Eric Woodbury
28-Aug-2015, 20:16
I used a 3006 for a long time, but gave it up a few years ago for tubes made from sewer pipe. I have a Yankee daylight tank, too, but have never used. Looks ok. Tacos are not daylight. --ew--

Kirk Gittings
28-Aug-2015, 20:27
BTZS tubes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0WaDVDAXLM

mdm
29-Aug-2015, 01:55
I second the btzs tubes, the only way I have found bulletproof, and I have tried everything excluding a full on jobo system. Not truly daylight though, but close enough to make it work.

Tim Meisburger
29-Aug-2015, 04:28
The taco method is a daylight method. BTZS are not.

Liquid Artist
29-Aug-2015, 11:26
I tried the Taco method once, and had hairline cracks in all the emulsions. So I haven't tried it since.

I do have a unicolor roller, along with a motor base and I use it upon occasion usually when I have several negatives to develop.

However my personal choice is 1 or 2 sheets curled into a Paterson daylight tank, basically stand developing with a quick agitation every 2 or 3 minutes.
Emulsion side in of course.
I get consistent and good results with this method.

jeremyh88.jh
29-Aug-2015, 11:31
I tried the Taco method once, and had hairline cracks in all the emulsions. So I haven't tried it since.

I do have a unicolor roller, along with a motor base and I use it upon occasion usually when I have several negatives to develop.

However my personal choice is 1 or 2 sheets curled into a Paterson daylight tank, basically stand developing with a quick agitation every 2 or 3 minutes.
Emulsion side in of course.
I get consistent and good results with this method.


What do you mean by curled in a Paterson tank, are you suggesting that you just place the negatives against the side of the tank? If this is possible I would be interested in trying this, how exactly are you doing this?

Roger Thoms
29-Aug-2015, 11:52
The taco method is a daylight method. BTZS are not.

While BTZS tubes are not a true daylight tank they are once you have the film and chemistry loaded. I load the film and chemistry in a closet which I has a piece of blackout cloth hung over the door. Once the tubes are loaded I carry the into the kitchen and do the rest in the light. Sure a darkroom would be ideal but I don't have that luxury right now. The thing I like about BTZS tubes is that I develop each sheet to an individual time and I get very even development. They are also very economical on developer.

I periodically try different methods but always come back to the "tubes".

Roger

Bruce Watson
29-Aug-2015, 15:24
I second the btzs tubes, the only way I have found bulletproof, and I have tried everything excluding a full on jobo system. Not truly daylight though, but close enough to make it work.

Interesting. I found just the opposite. Never could get consistent even development from BTZS tubes for my 5x4 negatives. But I got thousands of perfectly developed 5x4 negatives from a Jobo CPP2 and 3010 tank. Jobo is expensive even in the used market, but it's been perfectly fool proof, at least for this fool.

Roger Thoms
29-Aug-2015, 15:50
Interesting. I found just the opposite. Never could get consistent even development from BTZS tubes for my 5x4 negatives. But I got thousands of perfectly developed 5x4 negatives from a Jobo CPP2 and 3010 tank. Jobo is expensive even in the used market, but it's been perfectly fool proof, at least for this fool.



Interesting, were you rolling the tubes in a water bath?

Roger

Bruce Watson
30-Aug-2015, 06:33
Interesting, were you rolling the tubes in a water bath?

Yes. Just like the BTZS instructions say. Ran a few hundred sheets through thinking I'd get better over time. I didn't.

I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with BTZS tubes. Just didn't work for me.

OTOH, the Jobo system did work for me. Amazingly well. I had a few problems with it in the beginning, but all were human error. The one memorable screw up was when my film stuck together a little (high humidity) and I loaded two sheets into one side of a tube. Lost the back sheet, but the front sheet developed just fine. Had to refix it to completely clear the anti-halation layer off the back, but then that sheet was fine. The few others were the results of experiments gone a bit awry; all my fault, not the Jobo's.

Thousands of sheets with perfectly even skies... what's not to like? Besides the cost that is.

HMG
30-Aug-2015, 08:04
I tried the Taco method once, and had hairline cracks in all the emulsions. So I haven't tried it since.

I do have a unicolor roller, along with a motor base and I use it upon occasion usually when I have several negatives to develop.

However my personal choice is 1 or 2 sheets curled into a Paterson daylight tank, basically stand developing with a quick agitation every 2 or 3 minutes.
Emulsion side in of course.
I get consistent and good results with this method.

Many plastic tanks rely on the film reel for a light baffle. So if you don't have a reel, it's not "daylight" with the cap off for draining and filling. The Paterson tanks I have use a black tube inside of and separate from the reel. That tube provides the light baffle.

Liquid Artist
30-Aug-2015, 08:38
What do you mean by curled in a Paterson tank, are you suggesting that you just place the negatives against the side of the tank? If this is possible I would be interested in trying this, how exactly are you doing this?
Just like in my lousy cell phone photo.
139020
there is just enough room in a Paterson tank to fit 2 - 4x5 negatives without them touching. I only develop 1 - 5x7 with this method at once.

Make sure that the emulsion side goes towards the center, because the sheets will be flat against the sides when your done.

Oh, when I first started I did mess up and overlap the odd sheet just a hair. Never enough to really mess up the negative, but enough to notice an undeveloped edge.

Plus, like HGM said.
You need that center column in a Paterson tank to keep it light tight.

This negative was developed with the method.
139021

jeremyh88.jh
30-Aug-2015, 09:02
Just like in my lousy cell phone photo.
139020
there is just enough room in a Paterson tank to fit 2 - 4x5 negatives without them touching. I only develop 1 - 5x7 with this method at once.

Make sure that the emulsion side goes towards the center, because the sheets will be flat against the sides when your done.

Oh, when I first started I did mess up and overlap the odd sheet just a hair. Never enough to really mess up the negative, but enough to notice an undeveloped edge.

Plus, like HGM said.
You need that center column in a Paterson tank to keep it light tight.

This negative was developed with the method.
139021


This is exactly the way I pictured it from your description, thanks for the pic. Have u had any other problems other than overlapping with this method? Does it require more chemical to cover negatives, I've read that the taco method does and is this just the 2 reel tank? Really hoping it is because I already have one 😁

Jac@stafford.net
30-Aug-2015, 09:04
The best way to develop 4x5 films in daylight is to use a unicolor roller with a unicolor 8x10 print drum for 2 4x5 films [...] Trouble free!

That works for me, too. I prefer the roller base which has a gentle rocking motion.

Liquid Artist
30-Aug-2015, 14:35
This is exactly the way I pictured it from your description, thanks for the pic. Have u had any other problems other than overlapping with this method? Does it require more chemical to cover negatives, I've read that the taco method does and is this just the 2 reel tank? Really hoping it is because I already have one ��

I forget exactly how much chemistry I use, but it's around 800ml.

I usually use a 2 roll tank, which just fits them.
However most people recommend a 3 roll tank.

I think that the issue I had with the taco method may have been the lid touching the negatives, since it hangs down in the middle, however since I'm happy with the results I get I choose to stay with my method.

Kirk Gittings
30-Aug-2015, 16:26
Yes. Just like the BTZS instructions say. Ran a few hundred sheets through thinking I'd get better over time. I didn't.

I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with BTZS tubes. Just didn't work for me.

OTOH, the Jobo system did work for me. Amazingly well. I had a few problems with it in the beginning, but all were human error. The one memorable screw up was when my film stuck together a little (high humidity) and I loaded two sheets into one side of a tube. Lost the back sheet, but the front sheet developed just fine. Had to refix it to completely clear the anti-halation layer off the back, but then that sheet was fine. The few others were the results of experiments gone a bit awry; all my fault, not the Jobo's.

Thousands of sheets with perfectly even skies... what's not to like? Besides the cost that is.

I can't imagine what you were doing to get uneven development with BTZS tubes. I've tried most methods but the Mod 54 (I can tell by looking at it I couldn't get even dev with it). BTZS is IME virtually foolproof. Where was the uneven development? Ive run probably a few thousand negs through BTZS tubes. The only problem I had was "sloshing" the dev around when it was still in the cap before real agitation which caused increased dev on the bottom of the film. I just had to be more careful handling the tubes before starting agitation.

Nigel Smith
30-Aug-2015, 19:09
I forget exactly how much chemistry I use, but it's around 800ml.


I use 900ml in a Paterson 'System 4' 2 reel tank. Different models of 'Paterson 2 reel tanks' probably require different amounts. I use largish (diameter) rubber bands on my tacos which means I can only get 2 sheets in at once similar to Liquids picture above but the rubber band stops them every overlapping. With the rubber bands you can (depends on film type I think) get areas that haven't cleared some coating (anti-haelation?) but I move the bands during washing to ensure it gets washed away. There's a few other ideas (probably in the threads referenced above) for avoiding this but I haven't tried any yet. I have two similar tanks so if I have more sheets to develop, I'll reuse the developer for a second set assuming I'm doing them straight away (don't leave it sitting in a jug for long)

Bruce Watson
31-Aug-2015, 05:15
Where was the uneven development?

It was pretty easy to see in clear open skies.

Those same skies with a Jobo are perfectly smooth, nice even gradients.

Same film, same developer, same temp., same dilution, etc. About the only variable was clumsy me doing agitation by hand-rolling the tubes, vs. the machine. And the machine easily won.

Foolproof? The problem with that is that some fools are ingenious! And I do have an uncanny ability to break things that are deemed foolproof.

jeremyh88.jh
31-Aug-2015, 13:05
I always use a presoak this should stop any problems with not clearing the first layer, shouldn't it?

jeremyh88.jh
31-Aug-2015, 13:07
I use 900ml in a Paterson 'System 4' 2 reel tank. Different models of 'Paterson 2 reel tanks' probably require different amounts. I use largish (diameter) rubber bands on my tacos which means I can only get 2 sheets in at once similar to Liquids picture above but the rubber band stops them every overlapping. With the rubber bands you can (depends on film type I think) get areas that haven't cleared some coating (anti-haelation?) but I move the bands during washing to ensure it gets washed away. There's a few other ideas (probably in the threads referenced above) for avoiding this but I haven't tried any yet. I have two similar tanks so if I have more sheets to develop, I'll reuse the developer for a second set assuming I'm doing them straight away (don't leave it sitting in a jug for long)


An initial presoak should get rid of any issues with no clearing the first layer, should it

Nigel Smith
31-Aug-2015, 17:04
haven't tried because I don't presoak but if you've already got the rubber bands on the sheets, a pre soak might not do anything to the sections covered by the bands.

jeremyh88.jh
31-Aug-2015, 17:22
haven't tried because I don't presoak but if you've already got the rubber bands on the sheets, a pre soak might not do anything to the sections covered by the bands.


And on this wouldn't a hair tie work better since it's made if small rubber bands twisted and covered with fabric,this would be more permeable. Thanks for all of the advice by the way!

Nigel Smith
1-Sep-2015, 06:24
yes, a hair tie is one of the suggested alternatives. Another is some mesh of some sort sewn into a cylinder/tube into which you insert your neg (emulsion inwards). I haven't gotten around to trying either mainly as I can get around the issue if it occurs (it's dependent on film) and at the moment I shoot very little. However, if you give it a try, please post your findings, I'll be interested.

Liquid Artist
1-Sep-2015, 08:49
I was thinking that women's nylons are made of a fine mesh that would probably work.

I don't think that I'm the best person to find out since my girlfriend is taller, and faster than I am. Plus I'm certain that she knows how to make a body vanish.

Duolab123
1-Sep-2015, 18:35
Does anyone use hangers and 1/2 gallon hard rubber tanks anymore? I've got all the gizmos, Jobo stuff works great, print tanks and rollers work great, especially the back and forth and the rocking types. Having said all of this for years I replenished with a full bottle of HC-110 Dilution B, using 3 hard rubber tanks.
You can buy 6 hangers for 15 bucks and 3 or 4 of the tanks for 30 bucks and your in business. I've replenished using stock XTOL too. If you keep the bottles full you can go for months.
I use Jobo 2509n reels most of the time now. I like that you can wash the film and do everything before opening the tank. I cheat in that I use IR goggles to load the darn things. Toy Spynet goggles (not a good idea with IR 820 film). The Jobo expert tanks are a miracle. But I like my reels and hangers.
With hangers and a couple of tanks, some 2 liter soda bottles and you in business for under $50.

kenj8246
3-Sep-2015, 08:20
I use the taco method exclusively...well, when I don't use the mod54...and the only/occasional problems I have occur during drying. The fabric-covered hair bands have yet to cause me any problems.

Kenny

mjork
3-Sep-2015, 12:15
Just like in my lousy cell phone photo.
139020
there is just enough room in a Paterson tank to fit 2 - 4x5 negatives without them touching. I only develop 1 - 5x7 with this method at once.

Make sure that the emulsion side goes towards the center, because the sheets will be flat against the sides when your done.

Oh, when I first started I did mess up and overlap the odd sheet just a hair. Never enough to really mess up the negative, but enough to notice an undeveloped edge.

Plus, like HGM said.
You need that center column in a Paterson tank to keep it light tight.

This negative was developed with the method.
139021

How do you agitate? Wouldn't the sheets move around and bump into each other?
Seems much safer to go a step beyond this and use a mod54 insert inside the Paterson tank: the sheets are separated and you can fit 6 instead of just 2...

Dustin McAmera
3-Sep-2015, 15:57
I use a Combi-plan tank (which is discussed in a number of other threads); sadly not sold any more (anywhere I know of, anyhow). Loading it in my little black bag is awkward, but possible. Filling and draining take a while, but you get used to that. A very big factor for me is that my first big film was quarter plate, and the film-holder will adjust for that. I already have a Paterson 3-reel tank (don't use it; I now use steel tanks for roll film) so I'd consider a Mod54 if I ever broke my Combi-plan tank or holder irreparably (touches wood, quick); don't know what I'd do for quarter plate..

Duolab123
3-Sep-2015, 18:19
I am getting inspired!! Eastman made a "Taco Tank" back in the 20's for their Primo film packs, took 12 sheets, of course film pack film is pretty flimsy compared to our nice Estar polyester sheets today but if it worked in 1920, no reason why it wouldn't work today. I'm going to try it with some 8 x 10 in a Jobo 2830 drum. Jobo makes a simple light baffle not a film funnel, and not a print cup, like what they use on the 3000 series film tanks. Put a couple rubber bands around each sheet insert 5 or 6 at a time longwise. I think I will try it with some outdated RC paper before committing to $50 worth of Tri-X.

I may be brave enough to try it on a drum roller!

Mike

Liquid Artist
4-Sep-2015, 09:04
How do you agitate? Wouldn't the sheets move around and bump into each other?
Seems much safer to go a step beyond this and use a mod54 insert inside the Paterson tank: the sheets are separated and you can fit 6 instead of just 2...
The tension on the sheets actually hold them in quite secure, and once they form against the wall which I assume is while filling the canister they are almost stuck in.

Which brings up a problem I forgot to mention.
I just aim the water tap with moderate water pressure between the film and the side to loosen them.

As for agitation, I usually shake it for around 10 seconds every 2 minutes or so. Then tap it while setting it down.

chrism
5-Sep-2015, 17:47
This thread (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?119106-Gadget-for-use-of-steel-tank-with-4x5-film) describes a simple way of adapting a tall metal tank to develop two sheets with no rubber bands. It works very well, but I have added another piece of coat hanger that clips over the plastic tube and stops the sheets from riding up with inversions (don't want them to stick up out of the solution). The only drawbacks are that you can only do two at a time, and that it takes about 800ml of solution to cover the films, so I tend to use this with re-usable developers like Diafine.

howardpan
6-Sep-2015, 07:19
I use the Mod54 device. It's easy and works quite well.

http://mod54.com/products/mod54-film-processor

henk@lf
6-Sep-2015, 10:14
+1 MOD54, easy. I have gad no problems with it so far

towolf
6-Sep-2015, 16:28
My method is a variation of Liquid Artist’s technique. I just glued some strips to the wall of my old Jobo 2000 tank. This works fine on all film but E6. For some reason I cannot get the anti-halation off properly afterwards (anyone know what solvent dissolves the E6 anti-halo?). For this reason I got a JOBO 2021 6-sheet spool as well, but I like my method better (for rolling agitation).

http://i.imgur.com/QJ7RMDol.jpg