Print washing while I sleep

[Eric Woodbury]

I know it is not ideal to leave prints in the water too long, but I'd like to be able to print when I get home from work and then put the keepers in the washer and go to bed. I can deal with the washed prints in the morning. The question is, is there a water timer such as one might use for a drip system, that I could use to control the print washer? And, is there some handy water restrictor or flow device that I can install inline to get the exact flow through my print washer while washing (1 liter per minute for the Summitek)?

Thank you all.

--EW--

[sun of sand]

That is a long time for paper
And a lot of water

A timer set to wash prior to waking up sounds good
Maybe best to at least rinse before allowing to essentially dry in the washer before water begins flowing
I don't know if that's the idea here
I just soak prints a few times

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Almost any hardware store will have watering timers with hose fittings

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Outdoors-Garden-Center-Watering-Irrigation-Sprinkler-Timers-Hose-Timers/N-5yc1vZc63g

You could just adjust your faucet or spigot to the rate you like.

[Eric Woodbury]

SOS, it is a bit of a long soak for paper, but within my limits. Not a lot of water. One liter per minute for an hour is about 16 gallons. My washer stays wet when water off.

JGM, I just got a watering timer for my fruit trees. It is a pain to program. I rather have one that I'd set for a couple of hours and done. It's hard to set the water flow at such a low flow. The rubber washers can change with variations in water temp or pressure fluctuations. And I think it should be downstream from the timer in case the timer needs the dynamic pressure. I don't have a lot of pressure anyway.

[Jac@stafford.net]

If you mix hot and cold to maintain temp you might awaken to a cold shower.

[Eric Woodbury]

Jac. The darkroom has a 5 gallon point of use electric hot water heater. It should get through the wash with that and will have to, as I shut all the power off when I leave the darkroom I know too many photogs that have had darkroom fires. (2, which is two too many.) The house has flash water heaters, which don't work for a little trickle in the darkroom, anyway. Coldest my water gets in winter is 50F, not like your water which turns solid. Warmest is now and about 75F.

[John Kasaian]

You need a Trunk Monkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8avOiTUcD4Y

[BradS]

1 liter per minute....man that's a lot of water!

[Eric Woodbury]

BradS, spoken like a true Californian. So I don't shower for a week.

[bigdog]

JGM, I just got a watering timer for my fruit trees. It is a pain to program. I rather have one that I'd set for a couple of hours and done.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Orbit-Mechanical-Water-Timer-56908/202819560

[Bruce Barlow]

I have a Zone VI print washer. I let water run for about ten minutes, regulated to a gallon a minute with a nifty little regulator on my hose (I'm in Maine where we have water). Ten minutes gives me a full change in an 11x14 washer. Then I turn the water off and let it all sit for an hour or so, maybe all night if I forget.

Later, I run the water for another ten minutes, and then remove the prints. Way good 'nuff.

I figure the initial running water removes most of the fixer. Letting it sit allows the remaining fix to leach out of the paper. The last running water rinses everything.

HT-2 sez it works.

Leaving the water running for an hour feels like overkill. Also, this way I don't need to be fussy about time.

[Michael E]

I just use a simple alarm clock - to get up after one hour, turn off the water and take the prints out. Then I return to bed. Works really well.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Jac. The darkroom has a 5 gallon point of use electric hot water heater. It should get through the wash with that and will have to, as I shut all the power off when I leave the darkroom I know too many photogs that have had darkroom fires. (2, which is two too many.) The house has flash water heaters, which don't work for a little trickle in the darkroom, anyway. Coldest my water gets in winter is 50F, not like your water which turns solid. Warmest is now and about 75F.

Great information and worth repeating. Thanks!
.

[Oren Grad]

Not exactly what you're proposing to do, but IIRC David Vestal used to do an initial wash of his FB prints at the end of the printing session, then turned off the water and left the prints overnight in still water in the washer, then ran a final rinse in the morning before pulling the prints for drying.

[Eric Woodbury]

Michael E. I've thought about this. There is even a bed in my studio. I'm just not wound this way. Once asleep, I'm dead. Once awake, awake for hours.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Not exactly what you're proposing to do, but IIRC David Vestal used to do an initial wash of his FB prints at the end of the printing session, [...]

David Vestal is still a very favorite source of great information for me - but that goes before RC papers.

How does over-washing fit to RC papers?
.

[Luis-F-S]

I know it is not ideal to leave prints in the water too long, but I'd like to be able to print when I get home from work and then put the keepers in the washer and go to bed. I can deal with the washed prints in the morning. The question is, is there a water timer such as one might use for a drip system, that I could use to control the print washer? And, is there some handy water restrictor or flow device that I can install inline to get the exact flow through my print washer while washing (1 liter per minute for the Summitek)? EW--

I use the Intellifaucet K250 & set the wash time & flow to the Zone VI print washer. Usually set it for 45 min. Afterwhich, it shuts the flow off. Maybe you just need to design something Eric.

[LabRat]

Keeping the dry to dry times to the minimum for paper and film is important...

A celebrity photographer I knew was having strange issues with RC and DWFB prints, as there was brown irregular staining/uneven gloss/frilling at the edges/prints never dried flat, even after hot pressing (with small creases in paper with the DWFB) etc, and she asked me to "troubleshoot" the problems (before she complained to the mfgs)... We reviewed her working process, and the problem turned out to be that she would process/print when she got home (after a long night of shooting to make tomorrow's deadline), and would leave prints soaking wet in the washer while she slept...

The RC's would develop blisters and frilling, edges would discolor, and the surface would start peeling (sooner or later, esp. if framed) and I surmised that even though the print was "sealed", moisture would penetrate the edges and get trapped inside, and if hung exposed to light/heat for a time, the moisture would have nowhere to go but try to get out through the print surface... Solution??? Follow the paper instructions, and only a wash time for 5 or 10 mins like it said...

The DWFB's when allowed to soak too long would develop "bellies" that wound not flatten correctly, so it seemed that prolonged soaking affected the sizing, and the paper would expand unevenly, even to the point where a hot press would wrinkle the paper, as the "flab" had nowhere to go... It was noticed that one corner had a little bit more discoloration than the others, and finally figured that the washer had a "flow pattern" (as this one corner was closer to the inlet) and the red/orange color was probably microscopic iron from the water system (that was too small to be trapped by the water filter), that tended to flow past the corners more, and overnight had built up enough density to be visible (from swollen open fibers and soft sticky surface of the oversoaked paper, providing a place to embed...) (I have noticed this myself in an archival washer in a bad water area, where an hour wash was fine, but an 1:15 wash would show discoloring... Go figure!!!)

The surfaces would be hazy, irregular (rough and mottled) finish, and prone to damage, and it was from excessive softening of the surface (that probably trapped calcium from the water) and "lift" from corners lifting while soaking and bubbles near the surfaces that did not allow even wetting while soaking... And that the softened surfaces would but sitting, rubbing or sticking to the other prints in the stack and might abrade and transfer the back of one print to the surface to the other... (Wasn't following the "back to back/belly to belly" stacking rule...) And the base layer was discoloring from the edges in (so from the flow pattern), and the base layer would soak through, so handling with tongs/fingers or even bending the print would produce blue handling marks where there were bends/pressure areas from soak-through of the base... Solution??? Keep wash/wet time under an hour, and keep the prints moving!!!

To solve the problem of going to bed with wet prints, I remembered an old press lab procedure where the FB prints were washed just long enough to remove the fixer (10-15mins), where they were sent to the platemaking dept. (wet) and returned to the lab to be dried for later washing (sometimes months away) for the final washing before archiving... So she could give the prints the final wash the next day, or that week or month...

All was well after that...

Tips;
Keep water flow low, put prints into a quick (1 min) flow wash, then a no flow tray (standing tray) and wash the mass together (at the end of smaller session), if a big session, take a break to move prints along the washing/drying cycle, shuffle the prints once in awhile while printing others, make sure they don't lift or bubble underneath, and don't neglect wet prints!!!!


Steve K

[Luis-F-S]

RC papers? Yuk!

[Kirk Gittings]

The DWFB's when allowed to soak too long would develop "bellies" that wound not flatten correctly, so it seemed that prolonged soaking affected the sizing, and the paper would expand unevenly, even to the point where a hot press would wrinkle the paper, as the "flab" had nowhere to go...

I have left prints in the wash overnight over the years and experienced just such a problem, but since there was always a big time gap between washing and flattening the prints (could be weeks) I never associated the problem with the washing. I even posted this problem here once and no one had an answer. As I leave a wide margin, it did not prevent me from using the prints. Thanks for this info. You may have solved a mystery that has haunted me for decades.

[Bruce Barlow]

I just use a simple alarm clock - to get up after one hour, turn off the water and take the prints out. Then I return to bed. Works really well.

Nah. That's WAAAY too simple and full of common sense...

[Vaughn]

I use the wash time to put everything away and clean up the darkroom.

"Sleep is for wimps." he whimpered.

[tgtaylor]

Too long in the water is harmful to the paper, RC or Fiber. Just the other day while visiting Ilford's website for toning information, I read where it cautioned against prolonged washing as it could wash the optical brighteners out off the paper. If you use HCA, that will cut the wash time down to 20 minutes - just enough time to clean the trays and beakers.

Thomas

[Kevin Crisp]

My experience agrees with Bruce's, and I also have the Zone VI washer. If you avoid gross contamination of the washer that will result from not rinsing the fixer off at all before putting them in the washer, a few fills and soaks really does the trick. In my case, I give the prints a minute or two in a big tray with the Kodak siphon, then a few water changes in the washer and some extended soaking, and the results are fine with a lot of water saved. And because hypo is heavier than water....kidding.

[Doremus Scudder]

You may want to do a test with your paper before investing in timers and flow restrictors. Two things are likely to happen with an extremely long wash time: First, the optical brighteners will leech out (this is good in my opinion, as I find the brightening makes the prints look artificial... I wash for two+ hours usually just to get rid of them). The second thing that can happen is that the emulsion will separate from the baryta backing. This can be just frilling around the edges to the whole print being ruined. If your paper doesn't hold up to long washes, overnight just won't work.

Keep in mind that over-washing is not the best for optimum permanence. Your overnight idea is never going to be best practice. You might consider splitting your work flow like I do. I develop, stop and give the first fix and then a 45-60 minute wash. I then dry the prints and gather enough for a toning session (culling the non-keepers in the process). The toning session consists of soak, fix 2, toner (selenium for me) hypo-clear and then a thorough wash of about a couple of hours.

Best,

Doremus

[Eric Woodbury]

Perhaps I am over-washing. And I'm not too involved with being 'perfectly archival'. I've got prints I made as a kid (a long time ago) when printing in the garage was sloppy at best, that look fine. I don't see any fixing/washing issues at all on any prints. And after I'm gone, it really doesn't matter. The glaciers will melt and wash all my prints again. --ejw--

[LabRat]

I have left prints in the wash overnight over the years and experienced just such a problem, but since there was always a big time gap between washing and flattening the prints (could be weeks) I never associated the problem with the washing. I even posted this problem here once and no one had an answer. As I leave a wide margin, it did not prevent me from using the prints. Thanks for this info. You may have solved a mystery that has haunted me for decades.

Yes Kirk, It sounds like what it might be... When a print has been oversoaked, I have noticed that while squeegeing the back of the prints, there might be circles of slight darkening from moisture that has saturated deeper into, (even to the base) more than other areas, and I could see when dry there might be a slight belly or ripple there... And your margin area is where you would tong/squeeze, so that would compress that area and squeeze more moisture in...

Another thing to check is how evenly your prints dry... You live in the SW with low rH, and I have seen during dry spells that once a print starts drying, the little bit of lift here or there might allow sections to dry even faster than others... Ideally a DWFB should have dried all sections evenly at the same time, but as we know, the edges dry first and works it's way inward curling as it goes (as the gelatin shrinks a little while drying)... But watch a print dry to see if the curl is somewhat even, without big bellies, ripples, bends, etc, as this might be a clue to sizing changes... Also, one place I printed at, had a fan near the drying rack, (not directly aimed at, but some air movement nearby) and I noticed that the front of the rack (with a large print drying in it) would start drying faster than the rear, and flattening became more complicated as the print dried with a wave, and the chances for hot pressing ripples increased...

Something that I had used for the surface of a print, turned out to help the drying/flattening... For low key prints, glossy air dried matt, I had noticed there might be a slight overall haze over the dark areas, that I figured might be coming from the tap wash water drying... So I added a final soak step tray of distilled or deionized water for a 5 to 10 minutes, and another dip with the smallest amount of Photo Flo I could blend, for a 30sec dip... (Photo Flo 200 diluted 1:4 with distilled water (stock), put into a glass dropper bottle, and for working, 1 drop/1 ltr water...) Then photo sponged them on a drain board... This opened up the surface clarity, but also wetted the back of the prints more evenly so tended to dry more evenly... (And flatten better...)

And to anyone else listening... If you try to flatten a print that is not dry enough, you will get ripples or bumps or overall unevenness, and can mess with the surface causing blisters, unevenness, etc... (Think 48hrs normal weather, maybe longer if wet/humid) Run the back of your hand over the back of the print to feel it is a little cool feeling... That's moisture... Also note that the very final dry-down happens after hot pressing, so print for that...

If you are looking for me, I'll be in the dark... Good Luck!!!!!!!!

Steve K

[Bruce Barlow]

Perhaps I am over-washing. And I'm not too involved with being 'perfectly archival'. I've got prints I made as a kid (a long time ago) when printing in the garage was sloppy at best, that look fine. I don't see any fixing/washing issues at all on any prints. And after I'm gone, it really doesn't matter. The glaciers will melt and wash all my prints again. --ejw--

As I have said many times, I'm not at all sure why my prints deserve to outlive me...

[Eric Woodbury]

Bruce, well said.