Big Prints??

[Steve M Hostetter]

Hello everyone,,

I want to start making 40 x 50" black-and-white prints in my dark room and I need to know where to buy that size of paper ?

Thank You,
Steve

[Liquid Artist]

Rolls from Freestyle. I believe they are 42 or 44 inches wide x something like 50 feet long.

One tip,
Although I haven't started printing anything that big yet, I had uneven development while printing 20x24.
Because the development process had already started on the one end by the time I got the print fully submerged in the developer.
I then read that pre-soaking the paper in water is supposed to reduce the effects.

[Michael Wesik]

Hello everyone,,

I want to start making 40 x 50" black-and-white prints in my dark room and I need to know where to buy that size of paper ?

Thank You,
Steve

I get all my roll paper from either B&H Photo or Fred at the View Camera Store.


Rolls from Freestyle. I believe they are 42 or 44 inches wide x something like 50 feet long.

One tip,
Although I haven't started printing anything that big yet, I had uneven development while printing 20x24.
Because the development process had already started on the one end by the time I got the print fully submerged in the developer.
I then read that pre-soaking the paper in water is supposed to reduce the effects.

Ilford's Classic and Cooltone (glossy) papers definitely mottle at larger sizes. It was explained to me - by Ilford - that the emulsion of the newer papers isn't as robust as their warmtone paper, with which I haven't seen the same issue. Either a presoak and/or using stronger developer can help minimize the defect, though most of it depends on your processing methods and your subject matter.

[vinny]

b&h or anyone who sells ilford products can get it for you.

[ic-racer]

where to buy that size of paper ?


The easiest question to answer on the topic of Big Prints!

[Liquid Artist]

Ilford's Classic and Cooltone (glossy) papers definitely mottle at larger sizes. It was explained to me - by Ilford - that the emulsion of the newer papers isn't as robust as their warmtone paper, with which I haven't seen the same issue. Either a presoak and/or using stronger developer can help minimize the defect, though most of it depends on your processing methods and your subject matter.
Thank you Michae,
I didn't have enough time working with larger sheets to prefect my technique.
However I remember it being an issue worth mentioning to someone who may be in the same place.

[Bill_1856]

Check out Clyde Butcher for information about making huge prints. There may even be some demos on Youtube.

[AtlantaTerry]

I, too, have been thinking about making some large prints. But I may go another route since I don't have a darkroom these days.

Two friends and fellow photographers here in Atlanta have very large ink-jet printers in each of their businesses. One has rolls of canvas that he can print on.

So once I've developed my 4x5" B&W negatives, scanned them and edited the files in Photoshop, all I will need to do is put the files on a thumb drive. There might be something to be said for not needing huge vats of messy chemicals and rolls of ornery paper to wrestle.

[tgtaylor]

But you won't be able to print them using silver, gold, and platinum which is my preferred preferred printing elements.

Another thing to consider is the matting/framing for that size print. Shown below is a sketch and the math for matting a 8x10 print to a 16x13 board:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5719/20811807841_4f05daff0c_c.jpg

Thomas

[Willie]

Pour the developer into a container with a handle, put the paper in the developing tray - emulsion side up - and pour the developer over the paper. Gets it wet and covers the surface quickly.
You can make larger trays with a removable 'door' at one end so you can pour chemistry in and out rather than lifting the paper from tray to tray. Means you keep the chemistry in buckets/containers to fill and dump with each. Two or three large trays made this way means your paper stays in the same tray as you change chemistry all the way to fill and dump for the rinse.

A simple tray made of wood sections using a sheet of plastic to make it watertight is inexpensive and works well.

[Steve M Hostetter]

Please explain how you cut the rolls and keep the paper flat.. Also, if you like you can post pics and diagrams of darkroom setup to illustrate your methods..

Thanks Steve

[Michael Wesik]

Please explain how you cut the rolls and keep the paper flat.. Also, if you like you can post pics and diagrams of darkroom setup to illustrate your methods..

Thanks Steve

Hi Steve,

I've focused my work on making large prints, the largest of which has an image size of 53"x68-70" archivally processed and toned with sepia, gold and selenium.

I have a large table with a dowel at one end where the paper can be rolled out and cut (illustrated in the back left of the photo I've attached). I found that this was the best way to get consistent cuts.

Keeping roll paper flat is next to impossible because it always wants to curve back into shape. But if you plan to scroll process like Clyde Butcher or drag your prints from tray to tray, the curve in the paper isn't so much an issue.

I personally stayed away from the scroll method because I felt that I was overhandling the print and was limited in processing techniques. Dragging prints from tray to tray definitely works but I found that I wasted a ton of chemistry, it took up a ton of space, set-up and take down was really time consuming, and that it was extremely difficult to do - even with two people - at 50" and 56" paper width sizes.

I developed a one-tray method made up of a large tray with holes at one end that a gutter system will sit under. The tray is able to be positioned at a slight incline such that the gutter will return chemistry to me. The gutter is literally a gutter and the piping is ABS. I have a dedicated developer, fix/hypoclear, selenium, etc gutters/pipes. This allows me to pour my developer (8L), stop (8L), fix (8L) all of which are used in a one shot. I'm also able to plug the holes and fill up the tray for washing or for hypoclear (20-40L), selenium (20L), thiocarbamide (20L) and GP-1 (20L) which is either rocked or poured. My washing is extremely efficient as I can get more than 6 exchanges of water in 30 mins, filling up, rocking, drain, repeat.

To keep my paper flat for pouring I presoak for a good 5-10mins before heading into the developer.

Attached are two pictures, the first illustrating a 56"x80" print being washed, the second showing the tilt-up and gutter application. I hope some of this helps and gives you some ideas.

Best,

Michael

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[matthew blais]

I have printed 30x40 prints, paper from a roll dispenser (invaluable), homemade easel using sheet metal strips (painted with matte paint) taped down, tray processed.
Uneven development should not be an issue since most are developed to completion. I never experienced a problem with that.
The paper has to/should be rolled going from the easel to tray, unrolled into the tray. Using a foam swimming pool "floaty" to help roll the paper going from developer tray to subsequent trays helps prevent crimping too. Clyde does that I believe. At about $32 per sheet (32x40) it pays to be careful with the wet paper.

[Martin Aislabie]

I found that using RC paper is a lot easier to handle when making very large prints than FB.

The paper is much stiffer when wet and does not crimp so easily.

A second person and access to both ends of the tank are absolutely essential, as are regular kitchen rubber gloves - as you need to get your hands in the chemicals to lift/move the paper.

The only other way I have heard of (but never seen) is to have a single very large tray with a drain hole in the bottom at one end - and you keep the paper in the tray and you pour the chemicals in and then drain them out - one at a time - but be prepared for lots of chemical wastage.

Martin

[tgtaylor]

There's a rental darkroom (huge darkroom) in downtown San Francisco that is equipped to process mural-sized prints. They supply everything except the toners and paper.

Thomas

[Bill_1856]

Keep in mind the old (usually true): If you can't make it good -- make it big.

[tgtaylor]

This thread has motivated me to print a certain negative at 20x24 tonight!. I printed it at 8x10 in the past very successfully but it screams to be printed BIG. Because my largest easel is 20x24 and my enlarger is mounted on an enlarger table, 20x24 is the largest size that I can print at home. Rather than messing with multiple trays, I bought a flat bottomed Cescolite tray and will process the paper in this one tray - just like I do salted paper. Can pour the developer back into the beaker and then wash the tray with the water stop, drain, fix, etc.

Thomas

[Willie]

On using RC paper. I don't believe you will find any fine printer using it for finished prints.
Ask Clyde Butcher about using RC paper. He's not the only one who got bit by the stuff.

[John Layton]

I'm on my third large roll (42"x98ft.) of Ilford Classic, generally souping in Moersch 4812...and have not (yet) had any of the mottling problems mentioned earlier. Would love to hear more users of this paper chime in to get a broader sense of this "problem."

[bob carnie]

I have used a few rolls of this and have not seen any mottling as well. I see no problem . Mottling usually is a issue with mechanics of getting paper into the developer , and or, not stopping the development fast enough.

Grey background are significantly difficult and if one does not have the emulsion covered within the first 15 seconds then trouble will occur.. Very complicated images will show less issues than flat grey scenes due to camouflage.

I'm on my third large roll (42"x98ft.) of Ilford Classic, generally souping in Moersch 4812...and have not (yet) had any of the mottling problems mentioned earlier. Would love to hear more users of this paper chime in to get a broader sense of this "problem."

[Corran]

Ask Clyde Butcher about using RC paper. He's not the only one who got bit by the stuff.

?Details?

[Michael Wesik]

I'm on my third large roll (42"x98ft.) of Ilford Classic, generally souping in Moersch 4812...and have not (yet) had any of the mottling problems mentioned earlier. Would love to hear more users of this paper chime in to get a broader sense of this "problem."


I have used a few rolls of this and have not seen any mottling as well. I see no problem . Mottling usually is a issue with mechanics of getting paper into the developer , and or, not stopping the development fast enough.

Grey background are significantly difficult and if one does not have the emulsion covered within the first 15 seconds then trouble will occur.. Very complicated images will show less issues than flat grey scenes due to camouflage.


Sorry, I didn't mean to provoke a discussion about Ilford's papers and sidetrack the OP's thread. It was only meant as a point of reference because printing larger becomes a different animal with logistics and handling. Of course, everything depends on processing methods, paper size, subject matter, etc. If you haven't had issues, that's awesome. I spent several weeks discussing the mottling matter with Neil Hibbs at Harman Tech. He and his team were fantastic. Take that as you wish. I only hope that lots of big prints are being made.

[Drew Wiley]

I have no doubt whatsoever that the new Classic and Cooltone papers by Ilford as more sensitive to mottling than most papers, esp if someone is accustomed to
MGIV. This has nothing to do with emulsion flaws. You just have to be thoughtful about quickly and evenly wetting the paper in the developer, and likewise being quite consistent about the stop bath. Not the best choice of paper for casual students. Otherwise, I love these new papers.

[mbuonocore]

I have an automatic roll paper dispenser, but I also have a Kodak publication about making large and mural sized prints that has instructions on making a paper cutter for rolls.

Could you tell me the name / number of that Kodak publication? Thank you!

[mbuonocore]

Thanks Greg, I appreciate it! Those publications are well worth tracking down.

[bob carnie]

Hey Marco- I have quite a good selection of Kodak publications I would donate to Gallery 44 if you wish.. not sure about the one you are looking for , but I was given a whole pile from an old Kodak rep friend and I am willing to part with them to G44

[bob carnie]

Sorry Greg- I think G44 is where they are going. I try to donate anything I can to this great facility here in Toronto.


If they don't want them, I do, Bob.

[StoneNYC]

Can we maybe first scan them and that way we can distribute them as PDF's for us all?

[bob carnie]

no

Can we maybe first scan them and that way we can distribute them as PDF's for us all?

[StoneNYC]

no

Would you think G44 would be able to do it? Or willing?

I'm not sure if your reply was more about not wanting to because of the effort, or not able to, or because you don't want to share the knowledge?

Isn't what this place is supposed to be about? Distributing knowledge to help others of our community? It would be one thing if you could still buy these publications in the store, but we can't, so I thought spreading the info by making PDF's would be valuable to us as a community?

Am I wrong?

[bob carnie]

Hey Stone

How about you going to your local library and scan all the books there relating to photography , then distribute..

Are you for real?

Bob

Would you think G44 would be able to do it? Or willing?

I'm not sure if your reply was more about not wanting to because of the effort, or not able to, or because you don't want to share the knowledge?

Isn't what this place is supposed to be about? Distributing knowledge to help others of our community? It would be one thing if you could still buy these publications in the store, but we can't, so I thought spreading the info by making PDF's would be valuable to us as a community?

Am I wrong?

[Kodachrome25]

Wow....I mean...just wow, what a community you all have here.

Glad I am no longer a part of it, logging off for good in 3,2,1...



Hey Stone

How about you going to your local library and scan all the books there relating to photography , then distribute..

Are you for real?

Bob

[bob carnie]

Don't slam the door.

Wow....I mean...just wow, what a community you all have here.

Glad I am no longer a part of it, logging off for good in 3,2,1...

[Corran]

Bob, you are a well-regarded person around here, so let's show a little respect for your fellow forum members.

Regarding the publication, Kodak freely distributed these to begin with. Perhaps calling and asking if they can repost the relevant document on their page would be a start, or ask if redistributing it in PDF form would be acceptable, if it's that good of a piece of information. I was looking up some Public Domain laws but I'm not sure if that applies or not. Comparatively, books at a library aren't quite the same as a tech pub freely distributed.

[StoneNYC]

My local library doesn't have film photo related books anymore because they were all thrown out because not enough people checked them out and everything is shifting to online documents and computer terminals and tablet interfaces to a mainframe.

I don't know how many publications there are, I'm sorry, I was only making a suggestion to help the community, I don't quite understand your hostility.

There are a few options for solutions that would allow for us to all share in the knowledge together which is what this forum is about, you wouldn't have to do the actual work either.

Some possible ideas would be...

-We have a plethora of talented people here who I'm sure would gladly do it.
-I would also scan them if you like.
-Send them to that Butkus guy to scan.

This is a very common practice these days with the shift away from paper publications many that only exist on paper are becoming obsolete if not transferred to digital copy.

After that they could be sent to G44.

I'm very much for real.

~Stone


Hey Stone

How about you going to your local library and scan all the books there relating to photography , then distribute..

Are you for real?

Bob

[bob carnie]

I have over 50-100 kodak publications well over thousands of pages, I am not going to spend hundreds of hours scanning publications to spread around here or any where for that matter, I doubt that its legal to do such a thing, I am donating them to a rather large photographic co- op if they want them. Stone can fly to Toronto and visit G44 and read them for less than what it would cost me to oblige his request for the betterment of this community.

His comment about me not wanting to share information is downright low, A simple no is all that was needed to his answer.



Bob, you are a well-regarded person around here, so let's show a little respect for your fellow forum members.

Regarding the publication, Kodak freely distributed these to begin with. Perhaps calling and asking if they can repost the relevant document on their page would be a start, or ask if redistributing it in PDF form would be acceptable, if it's that good of a piece of information. I was looking up some Public Domain laws but I'm not sure if that applies or not. Comparatively, books at a library aren't quite the same as a tech pub freely distributed.

[bob carnie]

Then I suggest that G44 may allow you to scan them and you take your chances on distribution.

Once again.. Is that legal? or are you infringing on some copyright.


My local library doesn't have film photo related books anymore because they were all thrown out because not enough people checked them out and everything is shifting to online documents and computer terminals and tablet interfaces to a mainframe.

I don't know how many publications there are, I'm sorry, I was only making a suggestion to help the community, I don't quite understand your hostility.

There are a few options for solutions that would allow for us to all share in the knowledge together which is what this forum is about, you wouldn't have to do the actual work either.

Some possible ideas would be...

-We have a plethora of talented people here who I'm sure would gladly do it.
-I would also scan them if you like.
-Send them to that Butkus guy to scan.

This is a very common practice these days with the shift away from paper publications many that only exist on paper are becoming obsolete if not transferred to digital copy.

After that they could be sent to G44.

I'm very much for real.

~Stone

[Corran]

I'm not arguing that with you. My response was after your comments to Kodachrome.

Like I said, yes, there may be legal issues. Pure fact/tech/science stuff is not copyrightable I believe, which this specific article may not apply as. As for the time/effort, that's another story.

[StoneNYC]

I have over 50-100 kodak publications well over thousands of pages, I am not going to spend hundreds of hours scanning publications to spread around here or any where for that matter, I doubt that its legal to do such a thing, I am donating them to a rather large photographic co- op if they want them. Stone can fly to Toronto and visit G44 and read them for less than what it would cost me to oblige his request for the betterment of this community.

His comment about me not wanting to share information is downright low, A simple no is all that was needed to his answer.


Bob, I never initially said you didn't want to share, I asked you what the reason for saying no was and gave a few possible reasons I could think of hoping you would clarify which it was.

As I mentioned, others could have done it, doesn't have to be you, all you have to do is provide the books since we don't have them.

Anyway, legal matters are something to think about. But Butkus seems not to have any issues. These were apparently free publications, I highly doubt kodak has any interest in pursuing legal action against the few film photographers left in the world over 40+ year old publications.

I really meant no disrespect but I sure feel attacked here Bob. I respect your business and your skills, I was only trying to encourage the sharing of knowledge, and finding an amicable solution to the problem someone else posed about not being able to find these publications.

You've made your stance on this clear despite numerous options I've offered to allow others to do the scanning for you, ultimately you don't want to try and work with the community to try and find a way to share your books, you want them to only go to G44. That's your prerogative.

Well I won't get drawn any further into this debate, it's a shame we can't suggest sharing of knowledge without people getting heated about it.

I've contacted Kodak to see what they are willing to do and I'll keep you guys posted if anything comes of it.

[Michael Wesik]

Wow, that was an amusing twist to the thread...lol ~shaking head~

Back to making big prints.....

Another tip for printing big is that in order to get your prints to dry flat, humidity is the key. With the humidity levels in Vancouver bouncing up and down from season to season, I had to build drying racks, tented in plastic, with humidifiers placed inside (not the kind that produce steam, though). A humid environment allows the emulsion and paper to dry slowly preventing the wicked rippling that can often occur. This works with smaller prints like 30x40s or 20x24s too. I only squeegee the emulsion side of my prints with a soft windshield wiper and dry them face up. Hope that helps someone...

[Ginette]

As I'm interested to big prints for my lumen project, I take a look at this G-12 brochure. Nothing there that you can imagine yourself as a device for cutting paper. Described as a basic set-up : a movable stop that will retain the end of the paper and set the length and a grooved cutting marker (two strips of metal slightly spaced) and a single-edged razor blade. The paper pass over the groove. Kodak suggest emulsion down.
The brochure have 16 pages. Published in 1979 so will be in public domain here in Canada in 2029. If you really wish to look at, I can send you a pdf as a personnal copy but I will not publish it. PM me your email. In other way, it will be nice if Kodak can republish some of their old publications if requested.

For myself, I have small roll paper (30") I lay the roll directly on the floor in my darkroom and use my very portable Logan mat cutter. With a long square arm and with the rail guide that you can lift to pass the paper easily under it, i found this is working better that a rotary cutter that you need to pass the paper under the blade guard (and anyway my rotary cutter have only 26").

Thanks Michael for the pictures of your set up, very inspirating, you have a nice and big space. May I ask why you choose gutter instead of a large drain hole for the recuperation of the chemistries. I found some nice big pans (hydroponic stuff) but I still not drill them to make the drain, I don't know if I will put the drain under or on the side.

[Michael Wesik]

As I'm interested to big prints for my lumen project, I take a look at this G-12 brochure. Nothing there that you can imagine yourself as a device for cutting paper. Described as a basic set-up : a movable stop that will retain the end of the paper and set the length and a grooved cutting marker (two strips of metal slightly spaced) and a single-edged razor blade. The paper pass over the groove. Kodak suggest emulsion down.
The brochure have 16 pages. Published in 1979 so will be in public domain here in Canada in 2029. If you really wish to look at, I can send you a pdf as a personnal copy but I will not publish it. PM me your email. In other way, it will be nice if Kodak can republish some of their old publications if requested.

For myself, I have small roll paper (30") I lay the roll directly on the floor in my darkroom and use my very portable Logan mat cutter. With a long square arm and with the rail guide that you can lift to pass the paper easily under it, i found this is working better that a rotary cutter that you need to pass the paper under the blade guard (and anyway my rotary cutter have only 26").

Thanks Michael for the pictures of your set up, very inspirating, you have a nice and big space. May I ask why you choose gutter instead of a large drain hole for the recuperation of the chemistries. I found some nice big pans (hydroponic stuff) but I still not drill them to make the drain, I don't know if I will put the drain under or on the side.

I found that using a gutter underneath and several holes along the bottom of one end of the tray allowed for the chemistry to return to me faster and for the tray to drain much quicker during washing cycles. I only use 8 litres of developer, stop and fix for a 56x85 inch print. It's especially important to stop development quickly, for me, because I often use fairly fast developing times of between 1-1.5 mins to manipulate the colouration of my toning. Having the holes drilled right at the bottom of the tray ensures quick transitions between chemicals and as little chemical carry-over as possible. With the exception of my developer, I have the ability to reuse most of my chemicals (like fix for testing purposes) though I typically one-shot everything for the sake of consistency. Hope that helps!

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[Tin Can]

What an interesting thread. Makes me look at panoramic enlargement in a new light...

Long sinks.

[Drew Wiley]

Hmmm. Our libraries are filled with all kinds of real photography books here. And this is the heart of techie land.

[Louis Pacilla]

Oh yea BTW- It may not be EVERY single Kodak Publication but it has a bunch of them.

Provided by the folks who make/made their living selling and instructing the photographic community about Kodak products.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/databanks/filmDatabankIndex.jhtml?pq-path=14472

[Ginette]

And Ginette is correct about the device described in the Kodak paper. It is just a plywood board at an angle, but a flat counter top would work, too. The roll is held at one end with two strips if thin metal on the board (next to the roll) with a small gap between them to create a slot for cutting. Just use a regular utility knife. The lengths are measured by drilling two holes along the edge of the board, one on either side at the length you use regularly, so for example they may be at 30 inches from the cutting slot. A piece of wood is used as a stop with a dowel protruding from each end to slide into the matching holes. You just pull the paper until it stops at this piece of wood, then you cut along the gap between metal strips. Several holes can be made at different commonly used lengths and the stop moved as needed.

The illustration shown in the document shows a wooden ramp with holes drilled down the face along the edges with the roll hanging in hooks on the back side. Personally I don't have space for this thing in my darkroom, and I found an 80" paper dispenser on eBay for very little money. I mounted it on the wall so I don't use any counter space.

Someone asked so I scanned the document in pdf so feel free to PM to ask a copy, just give me your email, 16 pages 1.5meg document.


Oh yea BTW- It may not be EVERY single Kodak Publication but it has a bunch of them.

Provided by the folks who make/made their living selling and instructing the photographic community about Kodak products.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/databanks/filmDatabankIndex.jhtml?pq-path=14472
Thanks for the link but the G-12 refer to another publication as said before.

[Ginette]

I found that using a gutter underneath and several holes along the bottom of one end of the tray allowed for the chemistry to return to me faster and for the tray to drain much quicker during washing cycles. I only use 8 litres of developer, stop and fix for a 56x85 inch print. It's especially important to stop development quickly, for me, because I often use fairly fast developing times of between 1-1.5 mins to manipulate the colouration of my toning. Having the holes drilled right at the bottom of the tray ensures quick transitions between chemicals and as little chemical carry-over as possible. With the exception of my developer, I have the ability to reuse most of my chemicals (like fix for testing purposes) though I typically one-shot everything for the sake of consistency. Hope that helps!

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I saw the part over the tray, is it a kind of separator witch keep the solutions in the tray or that part cover the holes? Is it close tight? or do you simply inclinate the tray enough that the chemistry not escape from the several holes?

[Michael Wesik]

I saw the part over the tray, is it a kind of separator witch keep the solutions in the tray or that part cover the holes? Is it close tight? or do you simply inclinate the tray enough that the chemistry not escape from the several holes?

With my one-tray process, I have the ability to either keep the tray flat and plug the draining holes with two rubber based plugs, or I can tilt the far end of the tray at a slight angle, remove the plugs and allow the chemistry to filter down into the gutter beneath - or I can do a combination of both. I use clamps to hold the plugs tight in place during bleaching, selenium, etc. There can be a small amount of leakage but it's the nature of this beast. I investigated several different plugging options but in the end I went with something really simply and easy to use. I don't use the clamps for washing, however. The leakage that occurs during washing actually makes for a more efficient wash as the water is pulled over and under the paper down towards the plugs.

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[Dinesh]

A quick note to point out while he may be both short and short tempered, you would be hard pressed to find anyone more generous with their time and knowledge as Bob Carnie.

[Steve M Hostetter]

God bless everyone willing to spend time to explain their process especially Michael for the detailed pics and conversation!! This is very helpful indeed!! Although I'm finding out that I may not have quite the facility available to achieve the the size prints I had hoped for..��
Thank you
Steve
PS please keep them coming !! This thread is very inspiring

[jeroldharter]

Hi Steve,

I've focused my work on making large prints...
Michael

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I am envious.

[xkaes]

One way to save space is to use PVC water pipes. They come in various lengths and widths. I got 12" pipe and cut mine to five feet (60 inches) -- the widest paper that I have. Then they are cut right down the middle. Glue each end with PVC glue and a flat PVC panel (cut to size). These act as "legs" so the tube can't rotate. Cover the inside and outside seams with silicone sealant. I have four tubes -- developer, stop, fix, wash. I use them for B&W as well as color. I put heating pads underneath for color. Each tube needs 1 gallon of each chemical -- not bad. The paper is normally curved and slides into each tube easily. You can run it through with one hand on each end of the paper or simply roll it up inside the tube and then unroll it -- and repeat. If you have a problem with uneven development just dilute the developer and increase the development time. I've made eight foot prints this way without an assistant. I can't imagine using four 5x8 foot trays -- an 8x20 foot area. That would need a warehouse! I get it all done in a 4x5 foot area. That's one-eighth the size and can fit in most darkrooms.

[Corran]

Can you share some images of the 8' prints? Would love to see.

[Tin Can]

One way to save space is to use PVC water pipes. They come in various lengths and widths. I got 12" pipe and cut mine to five feet (60 inches) -- the widest paper that I have. Then they are cut right down the middle. Glue each end with PVC glue and a flat PVC panel (cut to size). These act as "legs" so the tube can't rotate. Cover the inside and outside seams with silicone sealant. I have four tubes -- developer, stop, fix, wash. I use them for B&W as well as color. I put heating pads underneath for color. Each tube needs 1 gallon of each chemical -- not bad. The paper is normally curved and slides into each tube easily. You can run it through with one hand on each end of the paper or simply roll it up inside the tube and then unroll it -- and repeat. If you have a problem with uneven development just dilute the developer and increase the development time. I've made eight foot prints this way without an assistant. I can't imagine using four 5x8 foot trays -- an 8x20 foot area. That would need a warehouse! I get it all done in a 4x5 foot area. That's one-eighth the size and can fit in most darkrooms.

Can you draw your tube design, I'm not visualizing it...

Thanks!

[Jordan]

Is there an interest out there in a mural print making workshop?

[analoguey]

Can you draw your tube design, I'm not visualizing it...

Thanks!
+1


Is there an interest out there in a mural print making workshop?

Yes! But I could only attend if it's local to me. Or at least within a day's ride.

[StoneNYC]

Is there an interest out there in a mural print making workshop?

Is it in Connecticut? :)

[Michael Wesik]

One way to save space is to use PVC water pipes. They come in various lengths and widths. I got 12" pipe and cut mine to five feet (60 inches) -- the widest paper that I have. Then they are cut right down the middle. Glue each end with PVC glue and a flat PVC panel (cut to size). These act as "legs" so the tube can't rotate. Cover the inside and outside seams with silicone sealant. I have four tubes -- developer, stop, fix, wash. I use them for B&W as well as color. I put heating pads underneath for color. Each tube needs 1 gallon of each chemical -- not bad. The paper is normally curved and slides into each tube easily. You can run it through with one hand on each end of the paper or simply roll it up inside the tube and then unroll it -- and repeat. If you have a problem with uneven development just dilute the developer and increase the development time. I've made eight foot prints this way without an assistant. I can't imagine using four 5x8 foot trays -- an 8x20 foot area. That would need a warehouse! I get it all done in a 4x5 foot area. That's one-eighth the size and can fit in most darkrooms.

I'd love to see some pictures or diagrams of your process and some examples of your work as well. It sounds really interesting. The largest prints that I've been able to make are 53x69 inches image size (see attached picture). They are partially bleached, redeveloped in thiocarbamide, and then toned with GP-1 (and selenium for the final edition). Please excuse the iPhone pictures.

I've been using all Ilford papers, mainly warmtone and classic fibre, so I'm limited to 56" in width. I could go longer but I don't typically like to push my negs beyond 5x enlargement, so my 11x14 negs are tapping out around this size.

139215
139216

[Corran]

Nice!

[John Layton]

I'm currently printing to 21x30...cutting down from 42"x98' rolls and souping in 22x32 inch trays (homemade).

Years ago I did 40x60's with students (all student work), souping in large troughs on darkroom floor, with one person on each side pulling up and down. Very messy and not to my liking.

I'd like to go with something like the cut-in-half pvc pipes mentioned above - but cannot find anything online (here or elsewhere) which completely/accurately describes the "scrolling and/or rolling" procedure for large prints.

So....could someone please describe (completely/accurately) the scrolling (and/or rolling) procedure, which I can do by myself (without help), in troughs in my 36"x16' sink, with a good degree of smoothness/consistency/safety to prints - in sizes from 30x40 to 40x60? Thanks!!

[John Layton]

PS: I find the possibility of agitating a rolled-up print especially attractive from a logistical standpoint...but would worry about even distribution of fresh chemistry over a given time.

My take on scrolling is that I'd do what I did with my students - lift one edge of the print high enough over the trough to ensure complete print coverage - but this sounds tedious and, for 40x60's, I'm not sure if my arms are long enough - and I'd want to make some kind of (slotted dowel?) clamp for each end of the print, which could then become handles and which would evenly distribute lifting forces. Anybody tried this?

At any rate - my sense is that if I could possibly scroll, this would be better for the image than "rolling" a print in a trough.

Hoping I'm clear enough on this, and deeply appreciate any replies.

[bob carnie]

John - I will be posting videos on my web site www.bobcarnieprintmaking.ca in the Lambda fibre section we will have a video that shows how we process by hand 30 inch by 10 ft sheets of paper.
you may find this video interesting.
Videos are starting to be loaded , right now only one but within a week about 10-20 videos


I'm currently printing to 21x30...cutting down from 42"x98' rolls and souping in 22x32 inch trays (homemade).

Years ago I did 40x60's with students (all student work), souping in large troughs on darkroom floor, with one person on each side pulling up and down. Very messy and not to my liking.

I'd like to go with something like the cut-in-half pvc pipes mentioned above - but cannot find anything online (here or elsewhere) which completely/accurately describes the "scrolling and/or rolling" procedure for large prints.

So....could someone please describe (completely/accurately) the scrolling (and/or rolling) procedure, which I can do by myself (without help), in troughs in my 36"x16' sink, with a good degree of smoothness/consistency/safety to prints - in sizes from 30x40 to 40x60? Thanks!!

[John Layton]

Thanks Bob...I'll be watching your site!

[Tin Can]

I look forward to your videos.

Bookmarked!

[DurbinLewisLtd]

When I've printed Cooltone Rolls as 56 x 75 inch prints I initially had the mottling problems (my work had excessive amounts of black)

I was using the scrolling method - to prevent it I changed my developer dilution from 1:9 to 1:5 (Tetenal Eukrobrom) and addeded enough developer to submerge the roll (this does cause handling problems due to the force of the paper against the amount of chemisty.

I also found that the first few roll run throughs were critical and needed to be done very quickly (long arm span really helps here) develop for 5-7 minutes and then repeat the rapid roll through in the stop for the first few trys.

For drying I taped the prints to large sheets of glass (windows) with gum tape.

Colleagues were experiences the same issue with the classic paper and that the emulsion was quite brittle and delicate like the cooltone.

Personally I love the depth and strength of the cold blacks achievable with Cooltone.

[xkaes]

Can you draw your tube design, I'm not visualizing it...

Thanks!

Try a GOOGLE search like:

photo processing murals with pvc pipes

Joe

[Tin Can]

http://photo.net/black-and-white-photo-printing-finishing-forum/00FFRh

[xkaes]

Can you draw your tube design, I'm not visualizing it...

Thanks!

Here's a couple of pictures that might help. They just show the ends of the tubes. The first is vertical -- standing on end:

139239

The second is horizontal -- laying flat (how they wound be used:

139240

The white part is the 12" pipe cut down the middle. The grey part is a flat piece of PVC glued and screwed onto the end of the pipe.

Joe

[Tin Can]

Here's a couple of pictures that might help. They just show the ends of the tubes. The first is vertical -- standing on end:

139239

The second is horizontal -- laying flat (how they wound be used:

139240

The white part is the 12" pipe cut down the middle. The grey part is a flat piece of PVC glued and screwed onto the end of the pipe.

Joe

Thanks that's a big help.

[jumanji]

Just saw this:
http://petapixel.com/2015/09/04/this-is-how-you-make-a-massive-4x5-foot-print-in-the-darkroom/
Looks like this guy using bare hands during the whole process. He did prewash and probably using high diluted developer.

[bob carnie]

Nice- thanks for posting... I use a different method , but they are making a bigger print than what I do, I like to specialize on 30 x 40 so I have two methods of process.. One is flat trays with 50 litres of chemicals in each i have enough room for 6 trays so its pretty easy to go from dev, stop, fix , fix, wash.
Another method is the trough which you see in this video... I use home depot plastic under bed containers which hold much more chemicals and i scroll like you see the young man doing, only I am scrolling 30 inch v 10 ft.

I know there are those here doing much larger prints and have come to their own methods of working, lately I have been liking the smaller print so when I do 30 x40 it feels like a gigantic print.

One day I will move to a location where rent is not so precious and maybe set up a rental mural room for supersize prints... I have the trays but not the space right now which is the big problem for Urban printers.