Jobo 3004 expert tank for 4x5 using CPE2 plus processor?

[pchaplo]

I just bought a Jobo CPE2 plus lift (with a 1526 "combo" tank included). I read that a Jobo 3004 expert tank might fit a CPE2, and had to wonder if I might be able to process black & white 4x5 in this manner. Beyond that, I was fantasizing that I might be able to process 8 sheets of 4x5 at a time in a 3004 tank. I prefer the expert-tank loading-design over the older spiral-type reels as the latter seem to require great mojo. Frankly I never liked spiral reels.

If you are a Jobo guru and have ventured into the forum from your darkroom lair (now that the sun has set), let me know your thoughts on my scheme to use a 3004 tank for 4x5 B&W film.

Wishing you great light!
Paul

[koh303]

1. No expert tanks can be used on the CPE2.
2. It is very risky running more then 4 sheets of film in the 3004, as they have a tendency to slip and overlap

If you want to use an Expert drum for 4X5 you should consider the 3010 (up to ten sheets at a time), but you will not be able to use your CPE2 for that.
You will need either a CPA2 or CPP2 of the very latest version, or a CPP3 to do that.

If you want to use your CPE2, you will need the 2509n reels with any of the 2500 system tanks.

good luck.

[Phil Hudson]

The loading base for the 2509n spiral takes the guesswork out of loading 4x5 sheets. I found it worth the investment.

[Sal Santamaura]

Do you have a 3004 Expert Drum? Beyond the facts that it won't work on your CPE2 Plus processor and placing more than four sheets of film in one risks overlapping and scratching, those drums are rare as hen's teeth. The 3004, with its large-diameter chambers, is most valuable for 8x10, where it provides even more reliable results than does the 3005.

I've tried 4x5 in a 2509n reel on a CPE2 Plus and not been satisfied with evenness. In my opinion, the best 4x5 results come from development in a 3006 Expert Drum on a CPA2 or CPP2 running at roughly 45 rpm. Seek a 3006, not a 3004. And, if you've already got a 3004, it should fund your entire adventure. :)

[DrTang]

I'm doing 10 sheets at a time in my 3005

I just tape two sheets together along the long side, on the back

after fixing..I pull them out of the tank, take the tape off, and put them into a tray of fixer to remove the backing covered by the tape - then finish in trays

this way..I can do a whole grafmatic plus two 5x7's or 8x10s at one time

[pchaplo]

1. No expert tanks can be used on the CPE2.
2. It is very risky running more then 4 sheets of film in the 3004, as they have a tendency to slip and overlap

If you want to use an Expert drum for 4X5 you should consider the 3010 (up to ten sheets at a time), but you will not be able to use your CPE2 for that.
You will need either a CPA2 or CPP2 of the very latest version, or a CPP3 to do that.

If you want to use your CPE2, you will need the 2509n reels with any of the 2500 system tanks.

good luck.

I see. I read that someone had used a 3004 on a CPE2+ and it worked. Must be scuttlebug?

[pchaplo]

Do you have a 3004 Expert Drum? Beyond the facts that it won't work on your CPE2 Plus processor and placing more than four sheets of film in one risks overlapping and scratching, those drums are rare as hen's teeth. The 3004, with its large-diameter chambers, is most valuable for 8x10, where it provides even more reliable results than does the 3005.

I've tried 4x5 in a 2509n reel on a CPE2 Plus and not been satisfied with evenness. In my opinion, the best 4x5 results come from development in a 3006 Expert Drum on a CPA2 or CPP2 running at roughly 45 rpm. Seek a 3006, not a 3004. And, if you've already got a 3004, it should fund your entire adventure. :)

No I do not have a 3004--my interest in that tank was motivated by a report that there WAS an expert tank that would work on a CPE2+ and it was the 3004 tank.

[pchaplo]

I'm doing 10 sheets at a time in my 3005

I just tape two sheets together along the long side, on the back

after fixing..I pull them out of the tank, take the tape off, and put them into a tray of fixer to remove the backing covered by the tape - then finish in trays

this way..I can do a whole grafmatic plus two 5x7's or 8x10s at one time

The taping method might work for me. I even wonder if I could experiment with this with my 1526 Jobo tank?

[koh303]

The 3010 tank will process 10 sheets per run. Taping film in the dark is only good if you want to do that, i dont.
There is no expert drum that can be used on a CPE2, its physically impossible due to the size of the tank and the machine.

You might go back and check where you read that, it might have been a CPA2?

[vinny]

I bet it'd fit if you had a hammer on hand.

[koh303]

I bet it'd fit if you had a hammer on hand.

We custom built a testbed for that purpose, with an exrta strong motor and special housing, cooling and more. There is just not enough power in that motor/PS combo to drive an Expert tank over more then an hour or so, and that was an empty tank. Perhaps a stronger motor, which will fit in there (i know there are such motors) and a stronger power supply will make such a modification meaningful. Then you run into all kinds of other issues, like the fact the red rack has to be removed as well....

[Oren Grad]

At this point, to get useful advice, the OP needs to be clearer about what he's trying to accomplish and what his priorities are. If he's determined to use his CPE2, then the Expert drums are out, and he needs to know about possibilities that are compatible with the CPE2. If he's determined to use an Expert drum and is willing to set aside the CPE2 but doesn't want to invest in a CPA/CPP, then a 3006 or 3010 on a roller base would be a reasonable possibility.

[Louis Pacilla]

I bet it'd fit if you had a hammer on hand.

Your funny Vinny. Seems to me I've posted that very thing a few times.

Why? Because your funny Vinny.;)

[originalphoto]

Late cpa2/cpp2 are better for expert drums. For 4X5 format, if you shoot often, jobo-3010 + cpa2/cpp2 are really worthy to invest. Be patient, I got my cpp2 on ebay with several drums and timer just for $199 and it works flawless.

[pchaplo]

At this point, to get useful advice, the OP needs to be clearer about what he's trying to accomplish and what his priorities are. If he's determined to use his CPE2, then the Expert drums are out, and he needs to know about possibilities that are compatible with the CPE2. If he's determined to use an Expert drum and is willing to set aside the CPE2 but doesn't want to invest in a CPA/CPP, then a 3006 or 3010 on a roller base would be a reasonable possibility.
Bold mine


Good point. My goal is to process 4x5 using the CPE2+ that I have. I now understand that no expert drum will work with that model. Therefore, can I process 4x5 (with CPE2+) with any drum that does not need a reel? If so, how many sheets can I do at once in the recommended drum?

[StoneNYC]

Bold mine


Good point. My goal is to process 4x5 using the CPE2+ that I have. I now understand that no expert drum will work with that model. Therefore, can I process 4x5 (with CPE2+) with any drum that does not need a reel? If so, how many sheets can I do at once in the recommended drum?

I believe what Oren is trying to explain is that the CPE2+ does not have the depth in the trough to allow for the increased diameter of the Expert drums. The expert drums are the only non-reel tanks for sheet film.

The 2500 series tanks (2551 drum I believe, but they made a few variations that all work) that take reels and the 2509n reel that takes 4x5 sheets is the only Jobo product that will work for rotary processing in your CPE2+ machine. You can use TWO 2509n reels in a 2551 tank and each reel takes 6 sheets so that's 12 sheets total.

If you want to use the non-reel Expert drums (3000 series) then you need a different processor. They are diffident size tanks (on the diameter) and require different size processors.

[pchaplo]

I believe what Oren is trying to explain is that the CPE2+ does not have the depth in the trough to allow for the increased diameter of the Expert drums. The expert drums are the only non-reel tanks for sheet film.

The 2500 series tanks (2551 drum I believe, but they made a few variations that all work) that take reels and the 2509n reel that takes 4x5 sheets is the only Jobo product that will work for rotary processing in your CPE2+ machine. You can use TWO 2509n reels in a 2551 tank and each reel takes 6 sheets so that's 12 sheets total.

If you want to use the non-reel Expert drums (3000 series) then you need a different processor. They are diffident size tanks (on the diameter) and require different size processors.

Thanks. I will take another look at the 2509n reels -- I wonder how well those work (meaning loading easily/accurately and not having streaking or processing problems) with a HP5+ which I think is a thinner film. I dread 4x5 reels and may end up selling my CPE2+ lift.

[Oren Grad]

Thanks. I will take another look at the 2509n reels -- I wonder how well those work (meaning loading easily/accurately and not having streaking or processing problems) with a HP5+ which I think is a thinner film. I dread 4x5 reels and may end up selling my CPE2+ lift.

You might search a bit here and on APUG for discussion of using 2800-series print drums for developing film, despite Jobo's warnings against it. Results are a mixed bag, but some people seem to be able to pull it off. Not sure whether that encompasses 4x5 - my recollection mainly relates to 5x7 or 8x10. At any rate, might be worth looking into before you give up on the CPE2+.

[richardman]

I started with the 2509n reels on a CPE2+, and then moved to 2509n on a CPP2, and now 3006 on the CPP2.

The CPP2 is a MUCH better system than the CPE2+, and the 3006 is a MUCH better tank than the 2509n. The major cost of a CPP2 is the shipping. They can be have for typically as low as $500 or so (that $200 listed above is a bargain), but shipping it will cost up to three hundred bucks (!) if they have someone else like UPS to pack and ship (that's the quote I got from a seller before I found one locally).

[koh303]

Thanks. I will take another look at the 2509n reels -- I wonder how well those work (meaning loading easily/accurately and not having streaking or processing problems) with a HP5+ which I think is a thinner film. I dread 4x5 reels and may end up selling my CPE2+ lift.

the 2509n reels work well, as 30+ years of worldwide experience might attest to. All processing issues, if you encounter any, have a user methodology solution.
Like anything else there will be a learning curve. Some people take some practice to load, some don't.

[Duolab123]

I use the 2509n reels because I just can't justify the beautiful expert tanks. I don't think a lot of people realize how well toy IR goggles help in loading sheet film reels. I even bought an IR LED flood light for 20 bucks off eBay, I use my SpyNet IR binoculars, and bungee them to my head. I have covered the red leds on this so I don't accidentally turn them on as this would fog the film. I've done everything but IR film (DUH) with absolutely no effect on the film. Last time I loaded a 2509n with 6 sheets of Ektachrome in under 5 minutes including snapping those Damn plates on. This is how I load my CL81 reel as well that I really like. I can focus these closely can read the fine print on the backing paper. Truly amazing for an old guy like me. The only draw back is you really do need to seal the rubber goggle to you face with bungees and if it's warm you can fog your glasses, if you don't ware glasses or wear contacts this is a great set up.
One advantage of using reels is I just pull them out of the tank and pop them into a Calumet film washer and you can really wash the film fast. If you are a professional and time is money buy a new CPP3 and Expert tanks, I've watched the CPP3 video of the construction of the processor and it is built like a tank. All I have to do is convince the Wife😊 Best Regards Mike

[pchaplo]

I started with the 2509n reels on a CPE2+, and then moved to 2509n on a CPP2, and now 3006 on the CPP2.

The CPP2 is a MUCH better system than the CPE2+, and the 3006 is a MUCH better tank than the 2509n. The major cost of a CPP2 is the shipping. They can be have for typically as low as $500 or so (that $200 listed above is a bargain), but shipping it will cost up to three hundred bucks (!) if they have someone else like UPS to pack and ship (that's the quote I got from a seller before I found one locally).

Richard, thanks for sharing your experience. I am keeping my good eye peeled for one of those epic $200 CPP2 deals! If you hear of one in Texas let me know :)

[richardman]

Richard, thanks for sharing your experience. I am keeping my good eye peeled for one of those epic $200 CPP2 deals! If you hear of one in Texas let me know :)

I paid $500 for mine :-)

[pchaplo]

I use the 2509n reels because I just can't justify the beautiful expert tanks. I don't think a lot of people realize how well toy IR goggles help in loading sheet film reels. I even bought an IR LED flood light for 20 bucks off eBay, I use my SpyNet IR binoculars, and bungee them to my head. I have covered the red leds on this so I don't accidentally turn them on as this would fog the film. I've done everything but IR film (DUH) with absolutely no effect on the film. Last time I loaded a 2509n with 6 sheets of Ektachrome in under 5 minutes including snapping those Damn plates on. This is how I load my CL81 reel as well that I really like. I can focus these closely can read the fine print on the backing paper. Truly amazing for an old guy like me. The only draw back is you really do need to seal the rubber goggle to you face with bungees and if it's warm you can fog your glasses, if you don't ware glasses or wear contacts this is a great set up.
One advantage of using reels is I just pull them out of the tank and pop them into a Calumet film washer and you can really wash the film fast. If you are a professional and time is money buy a new CPP3 and Expert tanks, I've watched the CPP3 video of the construction of the processor and it is built like a tank. All I have to do is convince the Wife�� Best Regards Mike

Mike, the toy IR googles are a great idea! That is very inventive. I will try them. I will need to disable those red LED's as I would surely turn them on and fog my film. Can you tell me which toy IR googles you are using specifically? Where did you get them?
Thanks, Paul

[Duolab123]

Mike, the toy IR googles are a great idea! That is very inventive. I will try them. I will need to disable those red LED's as I would surely turn them on and fog my film. Can you tell me which toy IR googles you are using specifically? Where did you get them?
Thanks, Paul

Here is a link to the manufacturer, sell on Amazon and Ebay, there is a couple of models that record video, I have the basic set up, can find for 50 to 60 bucks

http://www.spynethq.com/spynet-arsenal/night-vision-infrared-stealth-binoculars

140880

You will need a bungee to strap them to your head, my wife thinks I'm crazy and you look like an idiot

[Duolab123]

Here is a link to the manufacturer, sell on Amazon and Ebay, there is a couple of models that record video, I have the basic set up, can find for 50 to 60 bucks

http://www.spynethq.com/spynet-arsenal/night-vision-infrared-stealth-binoculars

140880

You will need a bungee to strap them to your head, my wife thinks I'm crazy and you look like an idiot

140881

Thus the you look like an idiot, I have the gray duct tape over the IR LEDs because emulsion is BLAZING white in IR, I use a IR flood light I bought on Ebay new for 20 bucks off to the side, lights up the entire darkroom. THESE are a toy not Zeiss binoculars, but I am deliberate, I focus carefully on the reel, I can read the "HEWES British Made" on my stainless reels. Don't try to walk around as there is NO depth perception, (they are really a two eye viewing monocular) Very Narrow field of view, Still I'm gonna be sixty in a couple of years and my fingers aren't what they used to be.

Between these and 3 Thomas safelights I'm ready to go. Just don't be so crazy as to post a picture of yourself wearing these things on the internet!!!

[Cor]

On the 2509n reel: as I (and others) have reported before: some film/developer combo's (in my case MACO IR/PyrocatHD) will always give you surge marks around these triangle "thingies"in the reel which hold your firm, at the lowest speed on my ancient CPE2.

I now have in loan a 3010 and a Simma roller base, never looked back.. but perhaps YMMV..

Good luck,

Cor