New universal film processor just announced - "SST4"

[koh303]

After the Jobo CPP3 was the first new dedicated film/print processor to hit the market in more then a decade - we just heard about this product which was announced today.

It called the SST4, make in Germany by Stark.

We hope to get a production sample shortly, and will update on its actual capabilities when it arrives, but so far its looking very promising with an excellent price point (looks to be around 1600$ in the US).

The key feature here is that this machine is universally compatible with pretty much any existing tank system you may already have, so you can turn all your tanks into rotation tanks without having to buy into a whole new system.

Most specifically relevant here is that it can run all Jobo Expert drums, as well as Jobo 2500 system tanks for sheet film from 4X5 to 11X14.

http://images.bigcartel.com/bigcartel/product_images/162854047/max_h-1000+max_w-1000/6456.jpg

More info here:
http://www.catlabs.info/stark-products

***posted with moderator approval.

[Duolab123]

This looks like a great machine. Not much options left out there, this or a CPP3. One advantage to this is the size, looks to be less than 2 feet long, no dopey drum tap to leak.I have a CPP2 that's still hanging in there, but it's like filling a Kayak with water and I don't like leaving water in my machine for more than a day or two.

This should have plenty of torque. All modern electronics! I usually pre-heat color chemicals in a microwave, I don't really need room for 6 1 liter bottles in preheat anymore I have a mixing valve for the wash water. I'm assuming that for B&W if you are at ambient you could run dry?? Wouldn't need to worry about a $700 drum walking off an old Beseler roller. Yeah, looks very interesting! Definitely an option for C-41 and B&W.
Mike from Iowa

[BetterSense]

I love that temperature controller! I use 2 just like it for brewing. They are common aquarium controllers. So, it should be easy to find replacements.

[Richard Wasserman]

Say your using an Expert drum—how do you fill it?

[koh303]

Say your using an Expert drum—how do you fill it?

There will be an optional funnel/tube attachment for "while rotating" filling option for those who want it.

[Bob Salomon]

Will it be at Javits?

[Duolab123]

I love that temperature controller! I use 2 just like it for brewing. They are common aquarium controllers. So, it should be easy to find replacements.

I have some 25 year old German made aquarium heaters, I used for Cibachrome worked well. Those are the same knobs that Are on my CPP2

[koh303]

Will it be at Javits?

The better question is will you be at Javitz :)?

I think Photokina of 16 will be more likely.

[Bob Salomon]

I am in the German pavilion

[koh303]

hoping not to derail this thread, but i feel the PPE is not very relevant for this type of gear (or at all for that matter).

[Duolab123]

I love that temperature controller! I use 2 just like it for brewing. They are common aquarium controllers. So, it should be easy to find replacements.

I haven't seen one of these machines but it looks like knob on left is on/off, knob on right is rotation speed, and it looks like the temperature controller is set with the small buttons on the LED readout. Jobo sources knobs, no one makes an injection molding tool that costs $30,000 to make knobs you can buy for 50 cents a piece. Half the parts in a Ferrari are made by Fiat, that doesn't make it less of a Ferrari, just more reliable:)
Peace, Mike

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

But $1600 ???

[koh303]

I will say this thing only about price, and leave the rest for the forumserts to do the usual rest:
Over the years, there have been MANY who came forward and promised to build a processor that would be cheaper, better, made with easy to find, easy to service off the shelf parts, that will do it all and cost less then a six pack, and will be commercially viable, easy to manufacture and ready in about but no later then 2-3-4 weeks, or 6 months, or 2 years and eventually never. None have yet come up and presented their solution, none have marketed such a thing.

To a large extent, it comes down to the fact the actual cost to make these things is greater then the sum cost of parts. Insurance, liability and responsability for selling electronics, not to mention the ability to back up claims of what it can and cannot do, the time spent on R&D, testing, fabricating, discussions with suppliers is not something you can do in a weekend. Just ask those folks making the travelwide, who are finding it hard to ship out a completed (?) product because of the shipping logistics which are taking weeks and months on end.

Add to that the fact this is not a mass market product despite the fact it requires all the same manufacturing resources and facilities as a mass market product, the cost of doing each little thing must be amortized in the price of the units sold, adding to the overall cost. People need to be paid, and believe me - no one is going to be a millionaire by making this or any other machine, not even close. The folks behind this machine do it to satisfy their passion, and hope to pay the bills. They are in the wrong business if they or anyone else thinks or hopes otherwise.

All this is without counting the decades of manufacturing and production experience these types of project require. They are either paid for as a third party (again, read travelwides very wise recent comments about KS projects), or they come built in with the people running the project.

At the end of the day - i put it to all those who have something to say about the price - i will welcome, promote, buy and support any such endeavor of someone who can "do it better/cheaper/faster/add your own" right away, and without hesitation, as i have done in the past, but alas, i am afraid the chances of that happening are less then slim. Good luck to them all.

As for the price of this and other photographic equipment - this machine will never be obsolete, most defenitly not in 6-12 months as many 5-6K$ digital cameras folks buy like hotcakes without blinking an eye. Cheap stuff costs less, no one is forcing anybody to buy anything. We hear people here complaining about the cost of LF gear. When in history could you ever buy a top of the line lens (or LF anything for that matter) for less then several thousand bucks? Today you can. Take the savings and allocate them where it counts.

[Duolab123]

But $1600 ???

If you want I would bet you could get Stark to sell it for $799, If you gave them a bonifide "Take or Pay" contract to buy 35,000 a year for 7 years. Kinda like a Pentagon contract:) Otherwise building these things one at a time, $1600 seem like a deal to me if it does what is intended to do. You can't amortize hard tooling any longer for products like this. However because you don't have to pay for the tooling, If done right you will end up with a great durable purpose built product.
I'm OUT, PEACE!:)

[Jac@stafford.net]

Priced entirely over-the-top silly,


building these things one at a time, $1600 seem like a deal to me

Who in the world would make them piecemeal? It makes no sense at all.
.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

I have been doing my work for so long for so little money that I guess I only see it from my side where I make less and spend less. Keep forgetting that there is another side where people have to make money.

I have forgotten some of my calculus where one uses the derivative to determine optimization of price to sell the maximum number of units. But I think it would be somewhat obvious that the less they charge for it the more units they will sell. It would be interesting to know what the optimized price is for that unit.

[koh303]

But I think it would be somewhat obvious that the less they charge for it the more units they will sell. It would be interesting to know what the optimized price is for that unit.

That is only obvious if you are selling a mass market product, like say, kaiser rolls at a super market. Because at most, there are not many buyers for this type of thing, no matter what the price, this is not even a consideration in price. 1000 vs 100, does not make it a mass market and will not change the cost of production. Because the market is so very small, it is even harder to bring a product like this to market.

The only thing that factors in is the cost to make it and distribute it, as i noted in detail above.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Even within the "small" market there still is optimization. The market for that unit is people who process their own negatives and prints and do not yet own a satisfactory processor but want one. People may not need one, but they might want one, and would buy one if the price point were correct for them. Even if the company only made a dollar on those marginal units it still would have been beneficial to sell them.

[koh303]

Even within the "small" market there still is optimization. The market for that unit is people who process their own negatives and prints and do not yet own a satisfactory processor but want one. People may not need one, but they might want one, and would buy one if the price point were correct for them. Even if the company only made a dollar on those marginal units it still would have been beneficial to sell them.

If they only made 1$ on each machine how would that be worth it?

I put it to you then, to design and market a machine which fits your suggested price point. Good luck.

[Duolab123]

I've worked in the appliance manufacturing business for about 25 years, in Engineering we would fight and scrape to take a dime out of the cost of a $800 refrigerator. 10 cents times 1.5 million units , 150k a year, A guy would be a hero, the saying was VOLUME hides a lot of sins. That is until you start losing 100 bucks on 1.5 million units a year. Then you close dozens of plants, layoff thousands of workers and realize you can't compete with a 100 billion dollar a year Korean Giant. SO you gather 10 or 20 truly talented people and make a specialty product, maybe you only make 2000 a year but YOU pay the salaries and the investors make a profit.
The product I work on now is unique, is for a very small market segment and we (and our company investors) wouldn't be doing it for nothing. And guess what,....We have people standing in line to buy our product.

My take on this Stark machine is it nicely fills a "Niche" that no other product is serving right now, accurate temperature controlled back and forth rotation that will take almost any tank made. Takes 30 seconds to fill and empty the reservoir and will fit almost anywhere. Get it out, fill it with water, use it and put it away.
You don't need a lift, you can make a tempering bath with a bucket and an immersion heater for $50 bucks. I like it just the way it looks. Keep it simple, robust, reliable, easy to use, that's a value proposition.

Again, we are seeing the old Jobos going to the grave, this stuff can't last forever, the ONLY reason that there is a CPP3 is because Jobo saved the thermoforming and injection molding tools from the earlier models THANK GOD. If you want to have this kind of equipment you need to support the manufacturers, their service network, and the retailers.
I said I'M OUT once before, I will try to keep quiet this time:) PEACE

[DrTang]

for B&W - which most of us do (or am I crazy here)

just a motor, rollers and a speed control that reverses would work

infact..plans and a parts list would work..even I could cobble something together out of pine that would work

if it had a 'keeper' to keep expensive jobo drums from falling off - the better

[Jac@stafford.net]

I've worked in the appliance manufacturing business for about 25 years, in Engineering we would fight and scrape to take a dime out of the cost of a $800 refrigerator.

Maytag in Newton, Iowa by chance? Maytag was THE place to work in that part of rural Iowa in my time. I knew Fritz Maytag, the only family member still in a Maytag business, the profitable blue cheese factory in the area.



DrTang: If it had a 'keeper' to keep expensive jobo drums from falling off - the better

I'm still looking for just the right size inner tube to cut into rubber bands to keep the drums on-track. :( Ain't a whole lot of inner tubes used today. Later this week I'm visiting a guy who has monster-sized O-rings.

[Duolab123]

Tractor oil filter rings work on 2500 series drums, I bought half a dozen for 85 cents a piece at our local farm store. Another thing I tried, not very elegant, but I split strapping tape down to about 1/4 inch and went round and round the drum till I had a ring, this was on an old print drum, I don't think I could do such a thing to a pretty expert drum:)

I worked for four different companies in 20 years and my office didn't move more than 100 feet. Maytag was one of our owners, Best part of my career, until today. Think Refrigerators and east of Newton.
And yes Fred Maytag's family still owns the dairy and cheese business, $20 plus a pound and they can't make enough of it!! I used to travel to Wash. DC a lot for meetings and everyone asked about the Blue Cheese when they saw my business card.

You're making hungry, I'm going and getting some!
Best Regards, Mike