Bizarre (silly?) question of the year attempt: 5x7-to-4x5 reducing film holders?

[moltogordo]

Okay - I've been playing around with 5x7 now for 3 weeks, and done perhaps a dozen photographs and the same amount of paper negatives. Verdict? I just LOVE the format. I've done contact print, digital conversions, but so far no enlarging.

Question: I'm liking this format so much that I might add a wooden field camera in this size perhaps next year. I know that there are reducing backs, but I'm wondering (here's the stupid question) has anybody ever made a REDUCING FILM HOLDER, ie a 5x7 sized holder that will hold a 4x5 sheet film?

Reason? I'm simply not EVER going to have the space for a 5x7 enlarger. I already have a 4x5. I figure that having access to a couple of reducing film holders might allow me to take a few along if I do a scene that ought to be enlarged rather than contact printed. Reducing back is of course the solution but that limits camera selection and is going to be more expensive, as well as taking up valuable time in the field switching backs. Ya might lose that light!

I'm thinking it might be possible also, to modify a 5x7 holder to take 4x5 film. Anybody ever done this? Perhaps a stopper of some kind and markings on the ground glass?

[dasBlute]

ok, old curmudgeon here...

Stick with the 4x5 back if you want 4x5s for enlarging. No such holder exists,
you'd have to hack your own, essentially adding rails onto the inner face of the holder.
Probably doable, but tricky to get right, and you'd always want a bunch -say 10- in the field, sounds like a serious project. You'd also ruin a bunch of nice 5x7 holders :(

Zone 6 has a fairly 'small' 5x7 enlarger.

Also, never say never. :)

Most 4x5s need to sit on a table, and my standalone Durst 138s takes up about the
same amount of floor space as a 4x5 on a table.

Just saying...

[Jim Jones]

Having made several reducing backs for my B&J 5x7 cameras, it is the route that seems most practical. Making a septum that would hold 4x5 film in a 5x7 film holder should be possible. After all, septums were once made to adapt 5x7 plate holders to 5x7 film. Making a septum to adapt these 5x7 plate holders to 4x5 film would be easier than adapting 5x7 film holders to the smaller film.

[Steven Tribe]

I have dozens of plateholders that adapt to smaller size film formats.

But these are the opening book type holders with loose mahogany inserts to hold plates. And they fine are for film through the use of sheaths.

[BrianShaw]

Perhaps I'm being excessively literal, but if you convert from 5x7 to 4x5 by any method... Aren't you shooting 4x5 and getting none of the 5x7 characteristics you seem to enjoy? Aside from not having to buy another camera... Why?

[Flauvius]

In the early 60s, the Itachi camera company made a metal field camera under the Toyo name, and that came with 4x5 and 5x7 clip-on rotating backs.

The camera is a really a 5x7 with a 4x5 reducing back,

They occasionally surface on flea-bay.

Flauvius

[mdarnton]

This sounds like a job for masking tape! Build a frame on the back plate of the holder with tape to locate the film, drop the film in the hole, tape it in place. Maybe you could make a couple of fancy tape flaps to hold the film in place, too, instead, or just little bits at the four corners to pop the film under. I can immediately see how to do this, if you can't.

[Oren Grad]

I have a handful of vintage 5x7-to-3.25x4.25 plate adapters; I believe I have some 5x7 plate holders hiding somewhere in the closet as well. Instead of the smaller plates, I could substitute 3.25x4.25 septums/film sheaths and use the 5x7 plate holders to shoot 3.25x4.25 film. There might be some slight film-plane misalignment.

So look for some 5x7 block-form plate holders, 5x7-to-4x5 plate adapters, and 4x5 septums/film sheaths, and you're all set. :)

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Somebody--perhaps Tachihara or Wista--made an adapter that fit on a 4x5 film holder to make it the same dimensions (and presumably same film plane) as a 5x7 film holder. If you can't find one, I am sure SK Grimes could make one for you.

[Oren Grad]

It was Toho. I don't recall whether they had 5x7-to-4x5; what stands out in my mind is the 8x10-to-smaller versions. They were awkward, in that they necessarily positioned the smaller holder at the edge of the frame, so as to allow access to the dark slide.

[Oren Grad]

OK, 5x7-to-4x5, too:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?6743-Reducing-Film-Holders

Before anyone gets excited: these have long been out of production. I'm not even sure Toho Shimo is still in business any more - they're certainly out of the photographic equipment business.

[Maris Rusis]

In theory you could first load a piece of 3"x5" card thick enough to fill the space under the film rebate rails then load a piece of 4"x5" film sideways to use up the remaining space in the film holder. Ok, the 4"x5" film is way off centre but it's in the camera. And you could mark the ground glass to delineate where the 4"x5" film is...in theory.

[Jim Jones]

Better yet, a 1.5x5" card on each side of the 4x5 film. Or use metal, and include a lip on one 5" side of each piece to help hold the 4x5 film flat.

[DrTang]

just get a 5x7 to 4x5 back for whatever camera you get

added bonus.. your 4x5 film will be in lighter/smaller 4x5 holders instead of larger, heavier, more expensive 5x7 with adapter holders


I have a 4x5 back for my 5x7 Linhof tech..I use it to shoot 2x3 polaroids with

hahahahah..I also have a 4x5 back for my 8x10 for the same reason

[David A. Goldfarb]

Toho did make the reducing filmholder, but obviously, the reducing back is going to be the easier solution to find. Some 4x5" cameras with reversible backs are actually 5x7" cameras with 4x5" reducing backs anyway.

There is one more roundabout way of doing this, if you happen to have the odd collection of parts, which I do, to make it possible (so I can use 4x5" film with my 5x7" Press Graflex, which is actually out of commission currently). There were 5x7"->4x5" reducing frames for glass plate holders, and 4x5" film sheaths to convert plate holders to film, so you could get some 5x7" plate holders, reducing frames, and film sheaths, and you'ld be all set!

[Tin Can]

Some cameras have slider backs which allow 2 images on 8x10, 5x7, 4x5 and 2x3. Not the same camera usually, but possible.

I have used them all. Great for quick 2 shot portrait sits, way faster than changing DDS, divider plates or 1/2 DS.

I also have 5x7 plate holders with 4x5 film inserts, but I just dust them. Not for sale.

[moltogordo]

Well, I appreciate knowing that my post might actually not be silly . . . that others have thought of this before as is usual in the LF world. I really think after reading all the comments that the best and safest way to go is to get the 5x7 with a 4x5 reducing back.

I really appreciate the comments and I've learned a lot.

[IanG]

Kodak Ltd sold reducing Inner carriers with hinged backs to convert Plate holders to use film, while the listed sizes are to reduce Whole plate to Half plate and Postcard sizes amn Half plate to Postcard size and Quarter plate. They did state that other sizes can be made to order.

One benefit of a reducing back though is 5x4 DDS are smaller and lighter than 7x5 DDS.

Ian

[Jim Galli]

Well, I appreciate knowing that my post might actually not be silly . . . that others have thought of this before as is usual in the LF world. I really think after reading all the comments that the best and safest way to go is to get the 5x7 with a 4x5 reducing back.

I really appreciate the comments and I've learned a lot.

With all the costs involved, gasoline, film, etc. you do not want to gamble with film registration. Get the reducing back.

As to silly, bizarre questions, we have a champion here, Heroique, who you will never surpass.

[Drew Bedo]

I have never sone this , but . . . .

What about using Grafmatic septums? Centered in the 5x7 holder and taped down or epoxied in???

[Fr. Mark]

Or, what about making an adapter for putting 5x7 negatives on a 4x5 enlarger?
I'm considering this approach with a Beseler 4x5. Take off condenser head, black foam core and gaff tape to make a box to get right distance, Masonite or Aluminum sheet film holder, a bit more foam core with pearl glass or plexiglass or something for diffuser, and a light source preferred to be LED. Artograph I think it is makes LED panels that might work.

[Willie]

If you have room for a Beseler 45 enlarger look for the 5x7 model. Same size with a 5x7 cold light head. Works well.
Get the 4x5 back and a few normal 4x5 film holders. Will take less space and weight than 5x7 holders modified as well as making sure you never think you are shooting 5x7 and grab the 4x5 modified holder by mistake.
If weight and size are a concern look for 4x5 Mido holder and film sheaths. Work well for some and not so well for others. Lightwight and compact.

[Tim Meisburger]

Hmm... I just saw this. Its easy to shoot 4x5 film in 5x7 holders. Just slide it in the 5 inch way. To keep it from sliding around take a small piece of double sided foam tape, remove the backing from only one side of the tape, then place it four inches in from the open end of the holder and mark your ground glass appropriately with a pencil. If you want it centered put the tape 5.5 inches in, then a square of tape at 1.5 inches and bow the film over the square when you insert it. I'll try to draw it below, with "X" representing tape and the lines the holder.

_____________________________
l00000000000000000000000000000l
l00000000000000000000000000000l
l0000000X000000000000000000000l
l0000000X000000000000000000000l
l0000000X000000000000X00000000l
l0000000X000000000000000000000l
l0000000X000000000000000000000l
l00000000000000000000000000000l
l00000000000000000000000000000l
:p

[SMBooth]

All to logically Tim. You could even put the tape in middle and centre the film.

[Tim Meisburger]

Yes, that is what I have done. You slide the film on to the track, bow it over the small square and keep sliding until it hits the longer tape and let go. The it will be centered with the tall tape on either side keeping it from sliding in the tracks. Re-conversion is done by simply removing the padded tape.

[Cor]

or..

Put lines on your 5*7 ground glass representing the 4*5 area; shoot on 5*7 film, and put the 5*7 negative in your 4*5 enlarger (might require some cutting) en enlarge the intended 4*5 area..easy at the expense of a 5*7 sheet for 4*5..

best,

Cor

[Jim Noel]

I have two 5x7 holders with wooden inserts to take either 4x5, or 6x9 cm film. One was made by Kodak and the other by Agfa.
The answer is "No". They are not for sale.

[Liquid Artist]

Or, what about making an adapter for putting 5x7 negatives on a 4x5 enlarger?
I'm considering this approach with a Beseler 4x5. Take off condenser head, black foam core and gaff tape to make a box to get right distance, Masonite or Aluminum sheet film holder, a bit more foam core with pearl glass or plexiglass or something for diffuser, and a light source preferred to be LED. Artograph I think it is makes LED panels that might work.
I recently bought a Beseler 45M enlarger with the same thoughts. You can even use wood as long as you don't use too hot of a bulb.
Although I prefer my Durst 138 the beseler is such a simple design to modify.

[Vaughn]

If you get a wood 5x7, it might have space for 'splitters' (pieces of wood that block the light from hitting half the film) that will allow you to take two separate images on a 5x7 piece of film -- both 3.5x5 in size. Cut the neg in half to print in your 4x5 enlarger. The negs will be slightly smaller than 4x5, but very close to the 5x7 proportions.

[Gary Beasley]

I have never sone this , but . . . .

What about using Grafmatic septums? Centered in the 5x7 holder and taped down or epoxied in???

I've done that for a friend a few years ago and it seemed to work quite well. Not sure about the height registration but it looked pretty close.

[jnantz]

Toho did make the reducing filmholder, but obviously, the reducing back is going to be the easier solution to find. Some 4x5" cameras with reversible backs are actually 5x7" cameras with 4x5" reducing backs anyway.

There is one more roundabout way of doing this, if you happen to have the odd collection of parts, which I do, to make it possible (so I can use 4x5" film with my 5x7" Press Graflex, which is actually out of commission currently). There were 5x7"->4x5" reducing frames for glass plate holders, and 4x5" film sheaths to convert plate holders to film, so you could get some 5x7" plate holders, reducing frames, and film sheaths, and you'ld be all set!

Toho did make these, and I ended up buying one, they are worth every cent paid. sometimes finding materials to fabricate a back doesn't work out, the reducing holder is an ingenious solution to the problem.
toho also made larger ones to reduce down 8/10 ... I only have the 57/45 one.

[Jim Becia]

Toho did make these, and I ended up buying one, they are worth every cent paid. sometimes finding materials to fabricate a back doesn't work out, the reducing holder is an ingenious solution to the problem.
toho also made larger ones to reduce down 8/10 ... I only have the 57/45 one.

I have one of the Toho 8x10 to 5x7 reducing holders. I works like a charm and takes up little room. Probably weighs about the same as a reducing back would weigh but can be used on any 8x10. It was and is a great idea.