Film Holders Scratching my Negs (?)

[Kirks518]

(Mods, if this is not the right place, please move)

I've been noticing scratches on my negatives (see attached), and I'm now convinced it's me, and not any of the gear or my developing habits. It's on the backing (not the emulsion) side. So I'm asking for some guidance to reduce of this from happening again in the future.


Here's why I've ruled out equipment issues -

It happens no matter what film holder I'm using, and I have assorted brands (Fidelity, Lisco, Regal). I have thoroughly cleaned all the FH's, and I can not feel anything that would scratch.

It's coming out of the developing tank (Paterson Super System 4, using the taco method), and it happened in an F-R Cut Sheet Daylight tank as well. I do squeegee, but the scratches are there before the squeegee.

I load/unload in a changing bag, and there's plenty of room, so the sheets aren't contacting anything until I grab it for loading.


The only thing I can think of is that my method of loading isn't very good (I'm less than a month into LF), or that the foil wrap from the box of film is scratching as I take out a sheet.

Has anyone had scratches like this before? Is there something a newbie tends to do that can cause this? Any advice at all?

The scratches run right thru the light from left to right in the image. You can see two parallel lines, but they stop and then there us a single scratch closer to the bottom/loading flap of the holder.

136900

[N Dhananjay]

If they are consistently in the same place on all negatives, I would suspect some issue with the film - bad batch, possibly. Is it all the same batch of film? Have you tried another box/batch? It is possible that there is something about your developing equipment that results in consistent scratches but you seem to have ruled those out. The base side is not that fragile that the foil in the envelope etc will cause scratches.

DJ

[Kirks518]

Yes, all of the film was out of the same foil pack, but not all of them were scratched that I recall (I'll double check that). I used up that pack, but I have another foil pack from the same box that I haven't opened yet. I'll look at all the negs from that first foil pack, and see if they all have it, and if the scratches are identical.

[Kirks518]

Of the negatives I saved (there were some useless test shots that I tossed), all but 2 have scratches in the same general area (middle, running lengthwise), but the scratches are different in one way or another. Some are double scratches, some are single, and one is more diagonal then straight across. I do have one sheet from that foil pack that I didn't load or shoot (used it to test for developing time), and it has no scratches. :confused:

[Paul Metcalf]

The picture shows something more like abrasions as they appear quite wide. Are you sure they are "scratches" in the mylar base?

[Kirks518]

If they are consistently in the same place on all negatives, I would suspect some issue with the film - bad batch, possibly. Is it all the same batch of film? Have you tried another box/batch? It is possible that there is something about your developing equipment that results in consistent scratches but you seem to have ruled those out. The base side is not that fragile that the foil in the envelope etc will cause scratches.

DJ

I think you may have something there. I just pseudo-loaded/exposed/unloaded each of my film holders (10) with some unscratched negatives, and was not able to scratch them. I them took my fingernail and tried to scratch the film, which didn't happen. I then took an un-clicked pen, and tried to scratch them, with barely any scratching noted. Using a USB, I was able to get some light scratches, but nothing even remotely like the above image.

I'll be opening the other foil pack soon, and I'll pull a sheet out from the middle an inspect it. Interesting.

[Kirks518]

The picture shows something more like abrasions as they appear quite wide. Are you sure they are "scratches" in the mylar base?

I guess abrasion may be a better descriptor, but they are permanent. Yes, they are a lot wider then a typical scratch, as wide as 2mm. While they are all similar, they are definitely not identical, and are not in exactly the same location, just close. The one pictured is relatively straight, but some are really jagged, like a lightning bolt almost.

[Cor]

What brand of film did you use ?

best,

Cor

[pdh]

It'll be interesting to k now which film, as the "bad batch" theory never really flies with the likes of Ilford/Fuji/Foma/Kodak - if there really was a "bad batch" produced, there would be a chorus of complaints all over LFPF (and APUG) because the user base is small and vocal and the "batches" proportionately rather large.

[redshift]

I doubt the film holders have anything to do with the abrasions. If the film holders were at fault I would expect the abrasion to be straight and in line with the direction the film is loaded and unloaded.

Maybe the damage is happening during the "taco" processing. It looks like the abrasions happen while the film is wet.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I agree that N Dhananjay might be onto the cause. I have experienced film from most of a pack that had nearly identical artifacts that only a machine could cause so consistently. As Cor asked, please share with us the brand. I have never had mechanical issues from the big manufacturers.

[Kirks518]

What brand of film did you use ?

best,

Cor


It'll be interesting to k now which film, as the "bad batch" theory never really flies with the likes of Ilford/Fuji/Foma/Kodak - if there really was a "bad batch" produced, there would be a chorus of complaints all over LFPF (and APUG) because the user base is small and vocal and the "batches" proportionately rather large.


I agree that N Dhananjay might be onto the cause. I have experienced film from most of a pack that had nearly identical artifacts that only a machine could cause so consistently. As Cor asked, please share with us the brand. I have never had mechanical issues from the big manufacturers.

The film is old Kodak Super-XX, expired in the 70's, so who knows.


I doubt the film holders have anything to do with the abrasions. If the film holders were at fault I would expect the abrasion to be straight and in line with the direction the film is loaded and unloaded.

Maybe the damage is happening during the "taco" processing. It looks like the abrasions happen while the film is wet.

This is a possibility, as the rubber bands are pretty much in the location of the abrasions, but I think* I had them show up when I processed in my F-R Sheet Film Tank.

Now I'm starting to think it may be something to do with the rubber bands reacting to the developer/fixer (D-76 stock & Ilford Rapid Fix). I have two sheets left to develop. Maybe I'll do the taco method, one with a rubber band, one with a cotton hair band (as shown in most tutorials), and see if that is the cause. Funny, in many threads talking about the taco method, they mention rubber bands without ill effects.

[Kirks518]

Some more reading lead me to this: http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1953704326 which specifically states that rubber bands will leave a stripe on the base side, so there we have it!

[Kevin Harding]

Some more reading lead me to this: http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1953704326 which specifically states that rubber bands will leave a stripe on the base side, so there we have it!

But that stripe is often either some of the anti-halation dye or improperly fixed areas, not an abrasion, in my experience, which is why an additional soak in fix will often correct the issue.

[N Dhananjay]

I'd say you have too many variables here. It is possible that the old expired film has a very sensitive base and the rubber bands are doing something, or maybe some weird aging has happened to the film emulsion base - who knows? I would start with the following tests. 1) Develop 1 unexposed sheet in tray by rocking and then see if the problem is there - that will tell you if the developing technique with rubber bands matters. 2) Buy a box of new film from a reputed supplier and develop with your existing technique and see if the rubber bands causes a problem here. The combination of results will give you the following interpretations.
1 - yes and 2 - no: the film is at fault
1 - yes and 2 - yes: the old, fragile film is at fault but the rubber band is probably not helping and probably exacerbating things
1 - no and 2 - no: the film and your developing technique are fine. It's something else - gremlins, karma, who knows??? But we will need to come up with some new theories.
1 - no and 2 - yes: the rubber band is definitely at fault.

Good luck. DJ

[John Bowen]

The REAL problem, as I see it, is a newbie shooting Super XX. Just put the film up for sale on ebay and buy yourself a Ferrari with the proceeds. :cool:
Good luck with your film scratches. I know it took me a while to get the hang of developing 8x10 and 7x17 sheets in trays. Quite a few scratched negatives (in the emulsion, no less) when I started.