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docw
7-Jul-2015, 20:13
My main 8x10 lens is a 14 inch Kodak Commercial Ektar. I like this lens for a lot of reasons but the old No. 5 Universal shutter is always a concern. The shutter is also quite limited, going up to 1/25" only (the 1/50" is just not accurate). I would like a little more room and thus I am looking for a lens that has a more modern shutter but will give me the rendition of the Commercial Ektar, which has a really nice bokeh and smoothness (for want of a better word) that I really like. I am guessing that this has a lot to do with it being a tessar. In any case, I am not going to dump the Commercial Ektar. I will continue to use it within its limitations but I would like something in a modern shutter. I think that getting the Kodak remounted in a modern shutter might be very expensive.

Some folks have suggested a 360 Fujinon A but after some preliminary research, I think I have as much chance of getting one of those as I do finding the Holy Grail. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Peter De Smidt
7-Jul-2015, 20:26
A Fujinon 420L is a tessar. It comes in a Copal shutter.

Other options are Congo lenses. If I remember rightly, some of them are based on Commercial Ektars. See: http://www.jck.net/congo/kakaku_e.htm

Alan Gales
7-Jul-2015, 20:28
You might want to read through this thread. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?117713-Cooke-Series-XVa-Convertible-Opinions-and-Experiences

I'll bet it's a lot more than you want to spend but it's an interesting read.

Maris Rusis
7-Jul-2015, 20:54
A Fujinon 420L is a tessar. It comes in a Copal shutter.

Other options are Congo lenses. If I remember rightly, some of them are based on Commercial Ektars. See: http://www.jck.net/congo/kakaku_e.htm

I've had more than 20 years experience with the Commercial Congo 360mm f6.8 lens in a Copal #3 shutter. It's as good a Tessar design as you would expect after more than 100 years of refinement. And it delivers an image quality similar to the Commercial Ektars I've tried. The modern coatings are a bit better and the Congo is remarkably flare free.

Kirk Fry
7-Jul-2015, 22:45
That really nice bokeh may be a function of the nice round diaphragm in that OLD ilex shutter. No 3 Copals have really ugly, lumpy diaphragms....

Tim Meisburger
8-Jul-2015, 01:15
I think Kirk may be right. I remember reading an article once where a guy argued that the primary factor in creating the creamy bokeh we love in old lenses was the old shutters with round apertures, rather than any inherent quality in the glass. It would, perhaps, be a fun experiment to take a lens with Waterhouse stops and make a set with the pentagon aperture to compare directly to the round.

cdholden
8-Jul-2015, 04:18
Other than speed, I'm not sure why you have concerns about your shutter. I don't think you will find a modern shutter big enough to mount that glass. If you have concerns about operation of your shutter, give it a CLA. Other shutters of the past that have many-blade irises with a more rounded aperture to consider might be one of the larger Compound shutters or maybe an Alphax, but then you're back to speed limitations.

docw
8-Jul-2015, 05:32
Other than speed, I'm not sure why you have concerns about your shutter. I don't think you will find a modern shutter big enough to mount that glass. If you have concerns about operation of your shutter, give it a CLA. Other shutters of the past that have many-blade irises with a more rounded aperture to consider might be one of the larger Compound shutters or maybe an Alphax, but then you're back to speed limitations.

The only concern is that there is not a lot of room at the higher end. Other than that, the speeds are not bad with most of them only out by 15-20% at most.

Kirk and Tim, thanks for pointing that out. I had not heard that before. I am re-thinking this although I am still looking into Congo lenses and other tessars. I would love to hear more about Fujinon and Congo tessars.

Steve Goldstein
8-Jul-2015, 05:43
I think Kirk may be right. I remember reading an article once where a guy argued that the primary factor in creating the creamy bokeh we love in old lenses was the old shutters with round apertures, rather than any inherent quality in the glass. It would, perhaps, be a fun experiment to take a lens with Waterhouse stops and make a set with the pentagon aperture to compare directly to the round.

Another interesting experiment, and possibly easier to perform, would be to use the same lens cells in new-style and old-style Copal 3 shutters. The old ones with the nonlinear aperture scale (unequal distance between stop markings) had rounder apertures, something like 10 blades versus the more modern 7. You'd need correct aperture scales for both shutters. The easiest way might be to get a lens in the older shutter with a correct scale and create a scale for the newer shutter. And if you happen to have a Prontor Professional size 3 shutter, those only have 5 blades IIRC.

sperdynamite
8-Jul-2015, 07:13
I have been told by a couple repair techs that the Ilex shutters are basically not repairable. I have a similar Shanel shutter for my Fuji 250 tessar and my repairman was only able to get it to passable working order. Anybody know why this is? Are they really just that dodgy? My Seiko shutters are workhorses.

As for your original question... Have you tried a modern lens like a 300mm Rodenstock? They go for a song and you might be pleased. Plus the modern convenience of the shutter will help you sleep easy.

cdholden
8-Jul-2015, 09:28
I don't recall the detailed history, but Frank Marshman bought up the inventory of Ilex parts to continue service for his customers.
I've not talked to him in a few years, so I don't know if he's still doing repairs. He was a forum member here and may still be today.

Steve Goldstein
8-Jul-2015, 09:29
I have been told by a couple repair techs that the Ilex shutters are basically not repairable...

Frank Marshman is the go-to guy for Ilex shutters - he bought out the entire parts supply when Ilex shut down. Last I spoke with him, maybe 6 months ago, he was still accepting repair work although he'd closed his store-front. He does limit what he works on nowadays, but has always been happy to do shutter work for me.

I bet SK Grimes can repair them as well.

jbenedict
8-Jul-2015, 10:38
I have been told by a couple repair techs that the Ilex shutters are basically not repairable. I have a similar Shanel shutter for my Fuji 250 tessar and my repairman was only able to get it to passable working order. Anybody know why this is? Are they really just that dodgy? My Seiko shutters are workhorses.

It can be a drag if they need parts but they are reparable. There were a lot of Ektars in #5s made so you could find another one with a good shutter and have your repair person use it for parts or just screw in the cells. Since the Ektars had pretty soft coatings, 50+ years on, lots of them have have cleaning marks that look like they were made with farm plows and go pretty cheap. Or have yours CLAed by someone who doesn't automatically say "unrepairable". Flutot's has a good reputation: http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/Services.htm

Last time I had my Ilex #5 CLAed, I had it done through Ed Olson in Seattle but, for those of you who remember Ed, he had his 'sources' and would not say who they were. I always suspected that they were winos living in dark garrets whose lives were a total mess but they were great on repairing stuff and only Ed knew where they were. I miss Ed.

Drew Wiley
8-Jul-2015, 10:46
Round shutters pertain to the shape of out-of-focus highlights (versus hexagons or whatever). But smoothness of transition is also related to lens design. Many
modern lenses render an annoying double-lined effect with background detail blur. This has nothing to do with color fringing or apochromaticity. In fact, some of the best lenses in this respect aren't particularly pleasing per bokeh. Among my own 14" or 360mm category of lenses, which does include some of the cream of the crop, including the 360A Fuji and 14"Kern Dagor, and 360/9 Apo Nikkor, I don't like the out-of-focus rendering of any of em. Luckily I had horse-traded something long ago for an old-school multi-bladed, single-coated 360 process tessar buried somewhere. I dug it out and made a filter adapter and lensboard. Plenty sharp, big image circle, very well color corrected, and ohhhh, so lovely bokeh. Just no shutter yet, so I have to use it with slower speed films and the old lens-cap method of exposure. It's not a realistic substitute for any of those other lenses, but just the right thing for a particular look on 8x10.

EdSawyer
8-Jul-2015, 12:19
The congo tessar I have has very nice bokeh, esp. wide open. (240mm f/6.3).

Bernice Loui
8-Jul-2015, 19:12
All the Commercial Ektars in the pile to be used are in barrel along with Dagors, Artars, Heliar, Xenar and .... all are in vintage round iris aperture barrels used with a Sinar shutter. Even the Portrait Ektar and 12" f4.5 Ektar in Kodak Ilex# 5 shutters have been mounted on their lens boards in a way that allows them to be used with a Sinar shutter.

It was some decades ago when I simply gave up on Ilex shutters for being shutter speed off, not reliable enough, and all those problems common to Ilex shutters. Yet, nothing can convince me to give up those Commercial Ektars and the rest. The image results are worth this struggle and change over to a single Sinar shutter.

The cost of loosing a single sheet of film made any shutter issues completely intolerable. Consider the amount of irreplaceable time and resources lost due to shutter problems and how that lost image can be replicated..



Bernice