View Full Version : Uneven Tray Development or Light leak?
Hey Guys,
I'm slowly developing film from my trip overseas. So far 2 of 8 sheets have the exact same black mark and they were both in the same holder. This is 16x20" film developed in a 20x24" tray. This camera and holders are brand new to me from Chamonix, and unfortunately I did not test them before I left. I have a total of 3 holders... Hopefully no more suprises. I'm hoping this is just uneven development but again I'm using a 20x24 inch tray so edge unevenness shouldn't be a problem. What do you think?135616
Shane Dignum
Here's the second sheet...135617
And here's a closer look. It doesn't start exactly on the edge..135618
You're not giving us very clear views, all of them have windows, color backgrounds, liquids, etc competing for attention.
But it isn't light leaks, thats for sure. What kind of film and what are you developing in? First and second pic looks like contamination to me.
ic-racer
17-Jun-2015, 16:51
Obviously development can't make the film black unless it is exposed to light first. Either the film holders, the camera or the area between them leak light. It is coming from the side near the darkslide slot. Was the film holder pushed in all the way and engaged properly.
+1
Took me a while to see what you are referring to. Did you remove the dark slide completely out of the film holder ?
If you pulled the dark slide out and let it rest in the slot you may have caused a light leak, the dark edge is angled.
And I must say that's a huge sheet of film !
Thanks for the quick responses. I'll post another photo once the film dries. I always pull the dark slide completely out of the holder before making an exposure. And yes, the holder was definitely fully inserted into the camera. The dark area is where the slot for the dark slide is located. This is FP4+ developed in HC-110. I should also mention I've never had any issues with my 8x10 for 6 years, so it's probably not user error. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't simply uneven development before I waste more film to figure out which holder has the issue.
Ok, the film is dry and here it is. I still feel that it might be uneven development on the edges, at least I hope that's what it is. The other 4 sheets I've developed have been nice and even. These sheets were in the same holder back to back.
135626
Thats a light leak. Hell I didnt even see that the other pictures had so much wrong with them. New holders shouldnt leak if they are loaded properly, so maybe it isn't seating properly in the back.
Ok, the film is dry and here it is. I still feel that it might be uneven development on the edges, at least I hope that's what it is. The other 4 sheets I've developed have been nice and even. These sheets were in the same holder back to back.
135626
That's a very interesting shadow on the right side of the image, looks like a person waving,
much less so when it's a positive, but still there. You may have photographed a Druid spirit ;)
You may want to use enlarging paper to check your holders, I'll guess that you probably have some to contact
print that bad boy neg. I did that recently with some holders I bought, either shoot it as a paper neg
or what I did was carry the loaded film holder around and insert and remove
the dark slide, no exposure , develop, and you'll know if the film holder is suspect.
It'll be cheaper than burning a sheet of 16x20 film.
StoneNYC
17-Jun-2015, 19:43
Wow! 16x20 stone henge!! Crazy!
Yea I would be upset at uneven development too, I have no advice but I'll follow with interest.
Tracy Storer
17-Jun-2015, 20:40
ULF is NOT 8x10. It is really necessary to keep a darkcloth over the camera to shield the end of the holder when you withdraw and replace the darkslide. Not generally necessary with 8x10, but it is Standard Operating Procedure for ULF, new holders or not, doesn't matter, it is too long an opening with too little material strength under too little spring pressure to RELIABLY keep the darkslide slot tight. I suggest this for all ULF formats, it is extra work, but when the film is $20 or more per exposure, that's how it is done.
Sometimes it is a good idea to also rotate the back of the camera AWAY from light sources IN ADDITION to shielding with a darkcloth.
Hope the rest of your sheets don't have too many problems.
Thanks for the quick responses. I'll post another photo once the film dries. I always pull the dark slide completely out of the holder before making an exposure. And yes, the holder was definitely fully inserted into the camera. The dark area is where the slot for the dark slide is located. This is FP4+ developed in HC-110. I should also mention I've never had any issues with my 8x10 for 6 years, so it's probably not user error. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't simply uneven development before I waste more film to figure out which holder has the issue.
sanking
17-Jun-2015, 20:58
ULF is NOT 8x10. It is really necessary to keep a darkcloth over the camera to shield the end of the holder when you withdraw and replace the darkslide. Not generally necessary with 8x10, but it is Standard Operating Procedure for ULF, new holders or not, doesn't matter, it is too long an opening with too little material strength under too little spring pressure to RELIABLY keep the darkslide slot tight. I suggest this for all ULF formats, it is extra work, but when the film is $20 or more per exposure, that's how it is done.
Sometimes it is a good idea to also rotate the back of the camera AWAY from light sources IN ADDITION to shielding with a darkcloth.
Hope the rest of your sheets don't have too many problems.
+1.
I was going to add that taking a trip with a new ULF camera and expecting to get good results is the definition of optimism. Did that myself in 2002 with a new 12X20 camera, and exposed some 200+ negatives in Spain. Swiss Air destroyed about half of the negatives, of the remaining half about 40% had light leaks because the holders were not seated correctly in the back. I should have known better since I was fairly experienced with ULF at the time, but a brand new camera inspires an excess of optimism.
Fortunately, I made duplicate shots of most of the scenes, in color, with a Fuji 6X9 cm camera!!
Sandy
ULF is NOT 8x10. It is really necessary to keep a darkcloth over the camera to shield the end of the holder when you withdraw and replace the darkslide. Not generally necessary with 8x10, but it is Standard Operating Procedure for ULF, new holders or not, doesn't matter, it is too long an opening with too little material strength under too little spring pressure to RELIABLY keep the darkslide slot tight. I suggest this for all ULF formats, it is extra work, but when the film is $20 or more per exposure, that's how it is done.
Sometimes it is a good idea to also rotate the back of the camera AWAY from light sources IN ADDITION to shielding with a darkcloth.
Hope the rest of your sheets don't have too many problems.
Tracy, that's a very good point. I typically do drape the dark cloth over the holders, but I remember being rushed to take this photo and seeing my dark cloth on the ground. Plus, the holders are made of wood and are slighty warped. I feel that we've concluded it being a light leak and nothing to do with developing. Thanks for your thoughts
+1.
I was going to add that taking a trip with a new ULF camera and expecting to get good results is the definition of optimism. Did that myself in 2002 with a new 12X20 camera, and exposed some 200+ negatives in Spain. Swiss Air destroyed about half of the negatives, of the remaining half about 40% had light leaks because the holders were not seated correctly in the back. I should have known better since I was fairly experienced with ULF at the time, but a brand new camera inspires an excess of optimism.
Fortunately, I made duplicate shots of most of the scenes, in color, with a Fuji 6X9 cm camera!!
Sandy
Sandy, It was definitely a good learning experience. I spent one month in the UK but only exposed 25 sheets. Unfortunately, I did not take any back up shots with another camera. I did take duplicate shots of each composition, just in case something like this happened, but I guess two wasn't enough. How did the airliner ruin your film?
You may want to practice removing dark slides while the holder is in the camera. You may have pulled them out while flexing away from the plane of the back. The suggestion of the dark cloth over the holder makes sense.
sanking
18-Jun-2015, 07:20
Sandy, It was definitely a good learning experience. I spent one month in the UK but only exposed 25 sheets. Unfortunately, I did not take any back up shots with another camera. I did take duplicate shots of each composition, just in case something like this happened, but I guess two wasn't enough. How did the airliner ruin your film?
The loss of the film was odd. I had a special suitcase for the film that I planned to carry on board, but for some reason I don't recall the airline insisted that it be checked. First bad sign was that the film bag did not arrive with my other luggage when I made it back to the US. Second problem was when the bag was delivered to my home. I saw the courier get out of his vehicle with my luggage in a heavy plastic bag. Then, as I watched him walk to the door, I noticed that two or three of the five film boxes in the bag had film sticking out, and about 100 sheets was fogged. Very bad moment for me!!
Sandy
StoneNYC
18-Jun-2015, 07:58
The loss of the film was odd. I had a special suitcase for the film that I planned to carry on board, but for some reason I don't recall the airline insisted that it be checked. First bad sign was that the film bag did not arrive with my other luggage when I made it back to the US. Second problem was when the bag was delivered to my home. I saw the courier get out of his vehicle with my luggage in a heavy plastic bag. Then, as I watched him walk to the door, I noticed that two or three of the five film boxes in the bag had film sticking out, and about 100 sheets was fogged. Very bad moment for me!!
Sandy
Wow that's crazy! I would certainly have attempted to sue for the cost of the trip, that's insanely bad handling of things on their part, if nothing else you should have gotten a free flight to go again.
About your holders, I really like the light traps and they seem just fine with multiple contact points over the whole slit, so do you suggest even with your new holders that a dark cloth is used to cover?
I bow to your knowledge and brilliance :)
sanking
18-Jun-2015, 08:23
Stone,
I would never remove a dark slide and expose a sheet of ULF camera, with any film or holder, without a dark cloth over the holder. In fact, I would never remove the dark slide and expose a sheet of film without a dark cloth over the holder with any view camera and holder, but for ULF I consider it insane. Too many possible sources of light, through pinholes in the bellows, sorry fitting back, lens board fitting, leaky holders and holders that don't fit well. Light is your friend, but also your enemy.
Also, keep your loaded holders in the dark (in black plastic bags) whenever possible, and only remove the bags to insert the holder in the camera and make the exposure. So many things can go wrong to cause film fogs I consider this necessary practice, not just good practice. You know the song, "wherever you have played before, ULF is a whole new game."
Swiss Air went bankrupt shortly after my trip and I got nothing from them.
My knowledge of the practice of ULF was earned through a lot of practical experience from the "University of Hard Knocks." Unfortunately, everyone has to go through that portal.
Sandy
Jim Noel
18-Jun-2015, 08:42
I agree whole heartedly with Sandy. I never remove the dark slide from any LF camera w/o the focusing cloth covering the back and the bellows. MY 5x8 foot cloth does a great job of this on the 7x17. Smaller ones for smaller cameras.
After fogging an 8x20 sheet from light leaks all around the front standard of a "new" camera, I went to town with a pen light and black tape inside and around the camera.
I have successfully exposed 3 sheets now with no leaks. I don't drape the darkcloth over the bellows because I'm apparently insane. Well not really but I use a light jacket instead of a "real" darkcloth most times so it doesn't cover the bellows adequately.
Andrew O'Neill
18-Jun-2015, 10:20
Definite light leak. As Sandy said, know your gear before going off on a big trip. I ALWAYS have my dark cloth over the back of the camera when making an exposure, sun or cloud. ULF film is just too expensive to waste... unless you shoot xray!
StoneNYC
18-Jun-2015, 11:02
Stone,
I would never remove a dark slide and expose a sheet of ULF camera, with any film or holder, without a dark cloth over the holder. In fact, I would never remove the dark slide and expose a sheet of film without a dark cloth over the holder with any view camera and holder, but for ULF I consider it insane. Too many possible sources of light, through pinholes in the bellows, sorry fitting back, lens board fitting, leaky holders and holders that don't fit well. Light is your friend, but also your enemy.
Also, keep your loaded holders in the dark (in black plastic bags) whenever possible, and only remove the bags to insert the holder in the camera and make the exposure. So many things can go wrong to cause film fogs I consider this necessary practice, not just good practice. You know the song, "wherever you have played before, ULF is a whole new game."
Swiss Air went bankrupt shortly after my trip and I got nothing from them.
My knowledge of the practice of ULF was earned through a lot of practical experience from the "University of Hard Knocks." Unfortunately, everyone has to go through that portal.
Sandy
Hmm, with my 8x10 and 4x5 I never cover the camera, even when the slide edge is literally facing the sun.
I've never had any issues with my Chamonix holders, and only had an issue with a grafmatic because I didn't seat it properly, but even my 4 grafmatic's don't have any leaks when out in the sun.
Even with the Chamonix 8x10 when I use the 4x10 half slide, I don't have any issues sliding that in, was worried about the "gap" where the slide stops in the middle, but it seems like there's no issue.
I mostly don't have a great tripod head and the weight of a dark cloth with wind means more shake, so I just don't bother with a cover.
I guess with the ULF that won't be as much of an issue because I'll have good tripod legs affixed to the body and no separate head, so that will take care of that lol
Thanks for the info!
John Jarosz
18-Jun-2015, 16:19
Even with 8x10 I cover the back of the camera with the darkcloth. The 2D is 75 years old, it won't work perfectly.
Most probably above posters are right on the mark, but you might want to check the attachment of the bellows to the rear standard, I had a (much less severe) light leak as yours, and found out with a light from the inside of the bellows in my darkroom that there was a every so minute gap between my bellows and the rear, very hard to see, but it caused a light leak..
good luck,
Cor
To end this thread on a positive note, the rest of my film came out as expected. Thank you to all who commented. This forum is an invaluable source of knowledge.
Shane Dignum
Jim Fitzgerald
2-Jul-2015, 18:16
Yes, cover the back of any ULF s SOP.
tgtaylor
2-Jul-2015, 19:39
Covering the bellows and the back with the dark cloth is a good idea and one which, I confess, to having recently adapted too. That said just recently I made an 8x10 exposure at high noon - yep, with the sun directly overhead - with the back set in portrait orientation and without covering it with the dark cloth. The sun was directly overhead shining down on the open slot in the holder. However I didn't realize it until I re-inserted the dark slide. So the negative was potentially exposed from the point that I pulled the dark slide from the holder until I re-inserted it. No light leak whatsoever appeared on the negative. I was using a Toyo 8x10 holder.
Thomas
Tracy Storer
7-Jul-2015, 07:56
Just for the education of newbies, some folks(not everyone) in this instance might turn the camera back 180 degrees so the darkslide exits the bottom. (assuming the back can be mounted that way and not parked over the bed for a wide angle shot, where this would not work.)
Covering the bellows and the back with the dark cloth is a good idea and one which, I confess, to having recently adapted too. That said just recently I made an 8x10 exposure at high noon - yep, with the sun directly overhead - with the back set in portrait orientation and without covering it with the dark cloth. The sun was directly overhead shining down on the open slot in the holder. However I didn't realize it until I re-inserted the dark slide. So the negative was potentially exposed from the point that I pulled the dark slide from the holder until I re-inserted it. No light leak whatsoever appeared on the negative. I was using a Toyo 8x10 holder.
Thomas
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