Combining Lens with Shutter

[celtic9]

Beginner question: can I combine any lens with any shutter?

Thinking about buying a lens that comes with a Prontor Shutter, yet I'd like to use it with a Compur shutter.

Thanks for your help :)

[cdholden]

No. Each shutter has it's limitations. My suggestion is that if the details are that important, find the features of a shutter that you need, then find one that has a suitable lens in it... or vice versa. Find a lens you want, then one mounted in a shutter that meets your needs.
If you don't really have any specific needs, just get a lens and go use it. To make photos, you don't even need a shutter. If you have a stable camera on tripod, a lens cap will suffice.

Chris

[Michael E]

Some combinations switch easily, some don't. Do some research with the exact lens/shutter specs. Your question is too generic to give you a competent answer.

Best,

Michael

[IanG]

What's the lens. I use Prontor shutters they usually work well.

Ian

[DKirk]

It does depend on the lens and shutter size, as well as what threads are around the cells and in the shutter. However as an example I have a Prontor shutter that has a Pullin 100mm f2.8 lens and the cells from it easily fit in to my Compur 1 sized shutters.
Needless to say the exact aperture scales wouldn't marry up, so working it out takes a little time. However I have an older shutter (exact brand unknown), which is comparable in size to a Compur/Compound 3 shutter however the cells from it are just too wee to fit into a Compound/Compur 3 shutter.

[Dan Fromm]

Beginner question: can I combine any lens with any shutter?

Thinking about buying a lens that comes with a Prontor Shutter, yet I'd like to use it with a Compur shutter.

Thanks for your help :)

Most Prontor shutters conform to the Compur standard. The standard specifies tube length and diameter and threading of the front and rear tubes. Some #2 and #3 Compur and Copal shutters deviate from the standard but nearly all #00, #0 and #1 Compur, Copal, Prontor, Seiko and Seikosha shutters conform.

Why do you want to reshutter a lens you don't have yet? What won't the Prontor shutter do that a Compur will? I ask because I've put lenses in Prontor Press shutters. What I give up with a Press shutter is speeds faster than 1/125, and I can usually live with that. But then, I don't use film faster than ISO 100.

As has already been mentioned, to do the swap you'll need a Compur the same size as the Prontor and unless you're lucky you'll have to make an aperture scale for the Compur.

[William Whitaker]

This is not a DIY project. There is more to it than just mating threads and making an aperture scale. Cell spacing is critical. You'll need to send it to a professional concern to have the lens re-mounted. And that's going to get expensive in a hurry. My best guess is that you would be better off getting a lens already in the shutter you desire. Then, too, I don't understand why a Prontor shutter is not satisfactory for your needs.

[Dan Fromm]

Will, I don't know why people, including you, are so worried about cell spacing. Standard Compur, Copal, Prontor, Seiko and Seikosha #00, #0 and #1 shutters conform well to their respective standards. Swapping cells from one #1 (or #00 or #0) to another isn't, in general, a problem. Similarly, swapping cells from a conforming barrel (Schneider lenses delivered in barrel came in barrels that corresponded to shutters) also isn't, in general, a problem. I've done this with cells that fit #00, #0 and #1 shutters with no problems.

The world being the ornery place it is, there are a few exceptions.

Some cells are shimmed to get the right spacing. The rule is, if there's a shim behind a cell it has to be transferred with the cell.

Copal #1 Press shutters with Tominon lenses in them as were sold for a variety of Polaroid cameras (I think the most common is the CU-5) have conforming threads but non-conforming -- too long -- tube lengths. I once asked my friend Eric Beltrando, who has a ray tracing program, how much of a problem using one of these shutters with a 150/5.6 Saphir BX (perfectly ordinary 150/5.6 plasmat type) would be. He did the calculations, reported that plasmats' performance isn't very sensitive to cell spacing and that the error was a tiny fraction (< 1% of focal length). He recommended putting the cells in the shutter and not worrying. He also advised not using a Polaroid Copal #1 press shutter with a dagor type lens.

I've never had so have never measured a Prontor #1 press shutter as supplied for the Polaroid MP-3 system, so don't know whether their tube lengths conform to the standard.

And then there are #00 shutters. These wee beasties aren't completely standardized and some cells won't seat properly in a #00 made for another lens. The late Steve Grimes called thie the "shoulder problem" and used to open the tubes up a little at the front so that the cells' shoulders would bottom on the tube in the correct position.

And then there are conforming press shutters. Press shutters' diaphragms are set farther back (closer to the rear tube's end) than are cock and shoot shutters' diaphragms. This can be a problem with lenses whose rear cells go deep in the tube, they can hit the diaphragm. 80/2.8 Planars' rear cells won't go into a #1 press shutter. Koni-Omega 60/5.6's rear cells won't go into a #0 press shutter. And so on. Machining won't help, the only solution is using a cock and shoot shutter.

[Oren Grad]

Will, I don't know why people, including you, are so worried about cell spacing.

We read stuff like this:

For the professionals in repair matters who would like to repair successfully by themselves, as well as for all the other service matters we would ask for strict compliance with the following:

* Our ranges Super-Angulon (incl. XL types), Super-Symmar XL, Super-Symmar HM, Apo-Componon and Digitar can be only repaired at Schneider-Kreuznach. To optimize the optical parameter in the best possible way an exact re-adjustment of these lenses after repair is absolutely necessary.

* Complete shutters should be only exchanged by Schneider Kreuznach directly (also here re-adjustment).

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/en/industrial-solutions/support/service/

[Dan Fromm]

Oren, thanks for the link. This is very interesting news for owners of Super Angulons and SA clones. It seems we've been deluding ourselves for years.

[IanG]

The late Dean Jones (Razzlwdog) maintained that the variations in performance with early 90mm f6.8 Angulons was often down to cell spacing and that the Synchro Compur shutters they came in had inconsistent "tube length". He posted that he'd machined some shutters to correct length and the performance was greatly improved.

Ian

[Oren Grad]

It seems we've been deluding ourselves for years.

It's possible, for some combinations of people, lenses and shutters. Or that the latest designs (e.g., SA XL, SS XL) expand the range of person-lens-shutter combinations for which that will be true. Perhaps Nodda Duma can comment.

[Nodda Duma]

Dan asked me to check out the thread. I'll respond in detail when I get to the house, but suffice to say for now that Ian's correct on principle. "Loose" tolerances on cell position are ~+/- 0.005". That sloppy a value actually makes me cringe. So you gotta maintain your cell spacing---including relative to the shutter.

Typically a precision design will end up around +/-0.002 or 0.001" (inches) on the airgaps. So assume you need to maintain the original spacing to within that tolerance to maintain performance. Aberrations depend on shutter position, so they'll blow up if the airgap is wrong.

[celtic9]

Interesting conversation. Re my initial post: I found a nice Sinaron S 150mm in a Copal Press Shutter. Since I have no experience with this kind of shutter I thought maybe I could combine the lens with another (fitting) shutter.

[Louis Pacilla]

Interesting conversation. Re my initial post: I found a nice Sinaron S 150mm in a Copal Press Shutter. Since I have no experience with this kind of shutter I thought maybe I could combine the lens with another (fitting) shutter.

Why? What the heck is the matter with the Copal Press shutter? They are very nice to work with with only one small caveat. The Copal Press shutter has a press open lever but the iris will not stop down when using this button (only wide open) so if you want to check shooting aperture on the ground glass you need to use the "bulb" setting with a locking cable release. Not a big deal and the few plus's are 1) no need to cock the shutter w/ the Copal Press shutter so if your banking light (multiple exposures on one plate for same subject like interiors) its a breeze as you don't have to re-cock the shutter chancing moving the camera a bit. 2) Using the press open lever in unison with the bulb/cable you can go back & forth from open aperture to shooting aperture with out changing iris setting once set. This way your less likely to forget to stop back down to the shooting aperture before the actual exposure is made. Does that make sense. They are FINE shutters if in good condition.

[steveo]

I have a similar question. I've got an older Schneider Symmar I bought cheap, the shutter was a mess and the lens is fairly rough, I knew that when I bought it but it got me going. I've since had the shutter serviced but the lens is still a bit rough.

How would I go about replacing the cells, is that (economically) possible?

[Dan Fromm]

Well, basically you buy another lens.

People offer Symmars in barrel and as enlarging lenses on eBay. I just did a search for "symmar (barrel, enlarging, db)" and found a bunch, some relatively inexpensive. Schneider's barrels conform to the Compur/Copal standard so the cells are direct fits in standard shutters.

Or you buy another one in shutter.

[steveo]

Well, basically you buy another lens.

People offer Symmars in barrel and as enlarging lenses on eBay. I just did a search for "symmar (barrel, enlarging, db)" and found a bunch, some relatively inexpensive. Schneider's barrels conform to the Compur/Copal standard so the cells are direct fits in standard shutters.

Or you buy another one in shutter.

Thanks Dan. So would I be able to split them from a Sinar DB board too? Interesting, they usually come up quite cheap.

[pdh]

It seems (to me in the UK at least) quite hard to track down shutters on their own ... presumably, then, if one wants e.g. a Compur #1, one simply buys an inexpensive working shuttered lens of any old fl and hopes to flog the cells on to some mug punter while retaining the shutter?

[Dan Fromm]

Thanks Dan. So would I be able to split them from a Sinar DB board too? Interesting, they usually come up quite cheap.

Yep. The DB mount also conforms to the Compur/Copal/... standard.

[steveo]

Yep. The DB mount also conforms to the Compur/Copal/... standard.

Thanks Dan.


Is it possible to change the FL? So instead of putting a 150 lens in put a 180mm. I'm guessing the bare minimum would be a new aperture scale.

[Dan Fromm]

Thanks Dan.


Is it possible to change the FL? So instead of putting a 150 lens in put a 180mm. I'm guessing the bare minimum would be a new aperture scale.

If I understand you, yes and yes. The shutter doesn't care which lens is mounted in it. There's no guarantee that an aperture scale that's correct for a make/model/focal length lens will be correct for a lens of different make, model or focal length. I just bought a set of lens cells that fit a #1. I don't have a shutter scaled for them. If I decide to use my "new" lens seriously I'll have to have a shutter scaled for it.

[steveo]

If I understand you, yes and yes. The shutter doesn't care which lens is mounted in it. There's no guarantee that an aperture scale that's correct for a make/model/focal length lens will be correct for a lens of different make, model or focal length. I just bought a set of lens cells that fit a #1. I don't have a shutter scaled for them. If I decide to use my "new" lens seriously I'll have to have a shutter scaled for it.

Yup thats what I was asking. Thanks again.