Goerz-Ihagee Doppel. Anastigmat f6,3 13.5cm

[IanG]

http://lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/goerz-ihagee.jpg

Does anyone know anything about these lenses. It's in a Compur Ser No, 435 6xx so dates to 1919/20 and appears to be a Dialyte lens, SN is 439xxx and marked on both front & rear cells.

According to the Vade Mecum for Goerz - "1923 The first Compur shutter dated lens is a Dagor No422,72x in a 1923 Compur No606,640. There's no reference to Goerz Ihagee lenses yet they were one of the standard lenses offered by Ihagee for 6.5x9 and Quarterplate/9x12 cameras, on some models the top of the range lens, on others a slower alternative to the f4.5 Dogmar.

At the same time Goerz were offering f6.3 and f4.5 Dogmars (as well as Dagors) on their own cameras. Ihagee switched to CZJ lenses after Goerz merged with Zeiss.

[Dan Fromm]

Ian, is the lens a dialyte? If so it is one of a number of f/6.3 dialyte types that Goerz sold. Some have names, e.g., Celor, Dogmar, Syntor, Tenastigmat, ...., others don't. Some were OK, flare aside, others weren't. Try it and see.

[IanG]

It's definitely a Dialyte Dan, two identical cells, they are interchangeable, the only difference is the engraving. I'll test it along with some other lenses fairly soon and probably fit it on my 2nd Patent Etui.

When did Compur change to the modern Aperture numbers ? This one is 6.3, 6.8,9,12.5,18,25, 36.

Ian

[Peter Yeti]

Ian,

the question is rather when or why did Goerz change the aperture numbers? The aperture scales are the job of the lens producer and Goerz had it's own system originally in which each f-stop was double the previous one like 6, 12, 24 (=f/16), 48, 96, 192, 384. Your scale is the "modern" German pre-WWII scale, which is shifted by 1/3 stop compared to our modern scale.

Regarding the lens I'd guess it's a Dogmar because this was the successor of Celor/Syntor and Goerz' standard lens for folding cameras at the time. Ihagee was a highly regarded camera maker like Goerz itself and thus kind of a competitor and partner at the same time. I could imagine that they didn't want to reveal which Goerz lens it really was for marketing reasons.

Peter

[IanG]

Thanks Peter

I'm getting an impression that the Goerz-Ihagee f6.3 Dialytes were designed as a budget version of the f4,5 Dogmar initially for Ihageer. It's known that CP Goerz emerged from WWI in quite a bad financial state, the war had severed the business links between Goerz AM Opt and CP Goerz in Berlin, so no more royalties flowing from the US to Germany. Before WW1 some British manufacturers had used Goerz lenses inc Kodak Ltd but that ceased due to the war.

Lens companies needed contracts and it seems one of Goerz's main partners was Ihagee and it's starts just after WW1. Ihagee were selling cameras with the Goerz Dogmar f4.5, as well as Dagor's, but the f6.3 Goerz-Ihagee pre-dates the similar f6.3 Dogmars so it seems likely it was designed for Ihagee, later being sold as a Dogmar on Goerz's own cameras.

Ian

[J. Patric Dahlen]

It's difficult to say if it's a Dogmar or a Tenastigmat.

My 6,3 Dogmar from 1916:

135390

6,3 Tenastigmat:

http://static.dcfever.com/media/trading//10/11/7/3442181289135547_m.jpg

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/goerz/images/goerz_tenax01.jpg

http://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2015/4/8/f/6/2/f62d1870-de2f-11e4-89e2-7f41e17b75c8.jpg

[IanG]

Thanks, it looks identical to your Dogmar, it's difficult to tell how close the Tenastigmat is they seem to be slightly smaller front cell, the inner ring on the barrel seems slightly smaller. I don't think Goerz would go to the trouble of match front & rear cells if the Goerz-Ihagee lens was in fact a Tenastigmat.

Just maybe these particular f6.3 Dogmar, Goerz-Ihagee and Tenastigmat lenses are essentially the same lens and the best matching element/cells go into the Dogmar & Goerz-Ihagee lenses. I don't suppose you know if the rear cell of your Dogmar has an engraved matching serial number.

The Vade Mecum comments on the price differences between the Cameras with f4.5 Dogmar, f6.8 Dagor, f6.3 Dogmar and f6.3 Tenastigmat. There's no price for the Tenastigmat but it's around half that of the f6.3 Dogmar and when you take into account that's including the Compur shutter it's very significantly cheaper.

Ian

[J. Patric Dahlen]

Good catch! The Tenastigmat does seem to have a smaller front element than my Dogmar and your lens.

Yes, my Dogmar has the matching serial number on the rear cell.

I wonder if Goerz used cheaper glass for the Tenastigmat? That could also be an explanation for the lower price.

Now I'm interested in getting a 6,3/13,5 Tenastigmat. :)

[IanG]

Thanks, I checked the Eurynar but there's no space to put a serial number on the rear cell. I very much doubt the Tenastigmat would have matching cells with the same serial number like the Dogmar or Goerx Ihagee, I'm fairly certain it's the same lens as a Dogmar banded for Ihagee.

Well the even cheaper Goerz f6.8 Kalostigmat (in an Ibsor shutter is also a Dialyte) so that must definitely be the cheapest glass :D.

Ian

[J. Patric Dahlen]

It's a badly kept secret that they used old window glass, heated and stamped to shape by trainees, when they made the Kalostigmat. ;)

Isn't it time for you to test the Goerz-Ihagee lens? You might be surprised. I saw you mentioned it on another forum three years ago. And you have better equipment than I do. I have Bergheils and a couple of Avus 6,5x9 and 9x12 that I use my lenses on, and no modern LF cameras. And I don't have an LF enlarger yet.

I've had my Eurynar for some years too, but I think I will finally test it this summer and see if it is as good as people say. I know that the 6,3 Dogmar is excellent. :D

I'm JPD on APUG, and I always find your posts there and here interesting. My main interest for decades have been Rollei TLR's, but classic lenses are fun too, and they can't be used on my Rolleis...

[IanG]

Yes I've got to get back in the swing of things, moved house, new darkroom which while usable needs final finishing touches. I have quite a few lenses as well of cameras to test :D

It's possible the Goerz-Ihagee lens is a Dogmar made by Ihagee under licence from Goerz, in the VM and my BJA 1924 there's Dogmar Goerz Fournier f6.3 lenses or and also Dogmar Goerz Berlin f6.3 being sold by Gallus Cameras on various models.

Yes I remember you mentioning those cameras.

Ian