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Ellen Stoune Duralia
26-Jan-2005, 21:26
Hi everyone! Remember me?

I'm happy (and pretty darn excited) to report that I am the proud owner of a Horseman LE [or at least I will be when the FedEx guy knocks on my door]. Man oh man - what have I done!?! LOL But seriously, I am looking forward to learning how to use it. What an adventure!!

The only thing the beauty didn't come with is a polaroid film holder. I've seen several used ones here and there but I'm wondering... what is the difference between a 545 and a 545i? Is one better than another?

And what about reasonable film scanning? I know I can get drum scans (for a freaking fortune) but I don't want to go that route unless I have a really killer shot [like that's going to happen anytime soon]. So I'm not looking to buy a scanner; I don't think that would be wise until further down the road. Just a nice lab that I could send stuff too. Any advice?

Lastly, I would like to apologize in advance for all the stupid questions that you kind folks are likely to be subjected to in the near future.

Thanks all!

Ted Harris
26-Jan-2005, 21:37
Ellen,

Congrats on your purchase. If you have any specific Horseman questions feel free to contact me off list. I have been using Horseman monorails in the studio for some 15+ years.

As for the film holders, the 545 is the older of the two models but the only difference AFAIK is that the 545 is all metal and the 545i is largely plastic. The 545i is a good bit lighter but you can do more repairs to the 545 (there used to be instructions at www.skgrimes.com), other than that they are basically yhe same.

Capocheny
26-Jan-2005, 22:09
Ellen,

Welcome to the club... we're ALL on the LF journey together. There are some who are just a lot further in on the journey than others.

Ted is right about the different Polaroid holders. I happen to have the 545i and it has worked well for me. But, I agree that the older 545 is more reparable if something should go wrong with it. However, functionally, they work the same. There's also a 545i Pro that has a timer built into the holder itself. Not a huge deal from a user point of view... just a bit more convenient. But, they go for about $50 more than the standard versions.

As for your comment, "....apologize in advance for all the stupid questions that..." I have to say that the only stupid question are those that don't get asked in the first place. These ones tend to remain in "ignorance" land. So, don't worry and be apologetic about asking the question. Folks on this forum will choose either to respond or not. From my experience... most of the people here are pretty great and will help you as much as they possibly can! Ted's a great example... I'm sure you'll meet John K, Brian E, Ralph B...and many others before long. :)

Good luck and, above all, have fun with your new camera. Shoot as much as you can...it's a terrific way to learn. I'd also suggest making brief notes on the techniques used in your shots. Then, after you get the images back... you'll have a record of what you did to make it successful or not. Lastly, make exposure records too... you'll learn that longer bellows will need adjustments in exposures.

So much to learn... :)

Cheers

Ralph Barker
26-Jan-2005, 22:51
Congrats on the Horseman (shouldn't that be Horseperson?), Ellen.

The 545i is the current model of the Polaroid holder, as Ted mentioned. It also has a younger brother, the 545 Pro - same design with a little digital thermometer and a timer built-in. Sounds silly until you find yourself trying to guess the temp and not wearing a watch. The all-metal 545 (or, some of them) has (have) been mentioned as having problems with Readyloads and Quickloads (Kodak and Fuji, respectively), that otherwise work well in the 545i.

I use an Epson 3200 for scanning 4x5. Does a reasonable job with the Silverfast software (which works as a plug-in for Photoshop). Ignore the Epson instructions to scan emulsion-side up, though. Put the emulsion side down, and then flip the image in Photoshop. Much sharper that way. The 4880 is the newer model based on the 3200, and there's a 4990, or something like that, about to be released that will scan a full 8x10. You can probably find bargains on 3200s, though.

And, as to those LF questions, there aren't any stupid ones - just ones that haven't been tilted quite right. ;-)

chris jordan
26-Jan-2005, 22:53
Hi Ellen, welcome to large format photography. I thought I'd contribute my list of possible errors to be made (I've never made any of these myself of course; any resemblance to my actual experience is pure coincidence):

--Opened the box of film with the lights still on;
--Turned the lights on while the film box was still open;
--Dropped the open box of film in the darkroom, spilling sheets of film everywhere;
--Loaded the film in the holder emulsion-side down;
--Pulled out the dark slide with the lens still open;
--Put the dark slides in the wrong way after making an exposure, so thought those holders hadn't been exposed yet, so made second exposures onto the same film;
--Developed sheets of film that had not been exposed;
--Forgot to set the f/stop and exposed with the aperture wide open;
--Forgot to switch the shutter from "B" over to 1/8th or whatever speed it was supposed to be;
--Pulled the film holder out with the dark slide still out;
--Dark slide got latched onto another film holder, so when I pulled out the other holder, along came the darkslide of that holder and exposed the film to daylight;
--Set the ASA of the light meter wrong, so everything was overexposed by two stops;
--Put a polarizing filter on and forgot to add the filter factor (and vice-versa-- included the filter factor but forgot to put the filter on);
--Dropped the old wooden film holder and broke it to smithereens right after taking what would have been a photograph;
--Dropped the lens off the camera because forgot to set the slider thing that holds it on;
--Dropped the whole camera off the tripod right before taking what would have been a photograph;
--Dropped the film holder in a river after taking what would have been a photograph;
--Discovered after a long day of photographing that there as no film in the film holders;
--While unloading film in the bathroom, bumped the open box of exposed film and dumped all the film into the open toilet;
--Put all the exposed transparency film into a box that said "C-41 normal process" and dropped it into the lab's night-slot, thereby getting the whole box cross-processed by accident;
--Got everything else right, and looked at the resulting perfectly-exposed and focussed transparency and said to myself "now why the heck did I take THAT incredibly dumb photo?"

Good luuuuuuuck!!!!!

~cj

www.chrisjordan.com

Jeffrey Sipress
26-Jan-2005, 22:55
Ellen, good for you! I, too, have a Horseman on the way and hope to get it this week.

I already use the 545i. It's the currently available new one. I haven't needed to repair it yet.

Yeeha!

Mark Sawyer
26-Jan-2005, 23:37
Geez, Ellen, if you're going to apologize for asking dumb questions, we're all going to have to apologize for giving dumb answers...

... and I'm sure I speak for everyone on this forum when I tell you not to scan your film. Digital is a dead end, just a passing fad, and the darkroom is coming back! Right, everybody? Uh, everybody? Anybody...?

tor kviljo
27-Jan-2005, 02:12
The Horseman L-standard monorails is supposed to a be very good studio camera (I had the LB briefly, but found it to difficult to carry by backpack properly), but You might find it a tad heavy & less packable if You want to carry it along as it's is in the same weightclass as Sinar P. But as You probably know, the sinar & Horseman share bellows, film-back & lens boards, so if You occational need a field camera, you can hunt down a Sinar F/F1/F2 (complete or just the standards & rail + holder) and use all your Horseman bellows, lenses, backs etc. on the sinar, making a 6-7 ib. packable version of your 14 ib. studio camera. I enjoy a lot using my Sinar P/P2 (14 Ib +) , but I use a Sinar F with Norma front standard as field camera. This one folds nicely into a small unit (a Sinar F speciality) fitting into the lower camera compartment of a Lowe-pro Orion AW daypack . Film scanning, I have had good results with both the epson 2450 - predecessor of the 3200 & doing up to 4"x5", and the AGFA Arcus 1200 (made by Microtech I understand) which does up to 8"x10" & have travelling light system for trannis/neg's. Both can be had usedfor less than $$ 100, but the AGFA has scsi connection. They both have problems with dense trannis (Velvia in particular) though.
You didn't mention what You will put through the camera other than that You lacked the pola-holder?. Anyway: If You have not made decisions on how to develope Your LF film, get Yourself a Jobo tank and a processor (or at least a roller base), and enjoy hassleless & cheap LF developing. If You got dev. equipment with Your set, chances are You have a unreliable, leaking, chemistry-gulping HP, Johnson or Agitank in Your house: Kill it! The CombiPlan is the best of the square tanks, being somewhat leak proof & sound construction/reasonble chemistry usage but still twice that of the Jobo & less suitable for color positive.

Anyway: Welcome to LF!

Bill Jefferson
27-Jan-2005, 03:21
Mark,
The darkroom never left !!

Calamity Jane
27-Jan-2005, 04:23
WAHOO!!! YIPPIE!!! HORRAY!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!

I don't know how to tell you this Ellen but when you see colour transparencies from that new camera, all other forms of photography is gonna start ta fade into the background! It's gonna knock yer socks off ;-)

Don't worry 'bout stoopid questions - I've already asked 'em - and they were answered by the folks who had asked 'em before I did :-)

Tadge Dryja
27-Jan-2005, 04:52
Congrats on the camera! I have the same one. At least, I think I do. It's a horseman, and it's a monorail, but there are no markings indicating what model. At school we had LEs, and mine is a little different than those because the front standard has geared focusing, horiz/vert shift, and the tripod block is geared as well. Other than that it's an LE.

If you like it as much as I like mine, you'll be happy :)

I have mine in a lowepro AW trekker 2 pack, and it just fits. With lenses, 'pod and such, it's pretty heavy to hike around with, but I can manage.

As for scanners, I got this "Canoscan D2400U" thingamajig a few months ago. It was $100 (used). (well, 10,000 yen, but whatever). It's an OK scanner; certainly not as good as the Imacon I used to have access to, let alone drum scans, but as I don't have a darkroom now, it'll have to do. Of course, with this scanner, I can't really tell the difference between Acros and HP5 when scanning at max res. So that's kindof an indication that I'm not really picking up all I can off the film.

Good luck with the camera. Bank on a couple weeks before you really get comfortable with it, but once you do, it may be real tough to go back to anything smaller!

-Tadge

Ben Calwell
27-Jan-2005, 06:15
Congratulations, Ellen. I'd like to add to the list of mistakes mentioned by Chris: Pulling the wrong dark slide after the film holder has been placed in the camera. I did this recently. I pulled the slide facing me so that I could see the sheet of film through the ground glass. When I did it, I thought, 'man this doesn't look right,' before it dawned on me what I had done. Stupid, stupid.

Steve Hamley
27-Jan-2005, 07:15
Ellen,

Congratulations! You've got most of the answers. A good flatbed scanner such as the Epson 48XX series or the Microtek 1800f will do a fine job, but not as good as a drum scan. John Smith of Photoquick in Asheville does excellent drum scans at a flat rate of $30 per scan. maybe too high to scan everything, but for the special ones it's a good deal and he's reportedly very good. (828) 258-9321.

The February issue of "Backpacker" has a section on reader's favorites, and their favorite photographer is Ansel Adams, which isn't a surprise. What's interesting is that they published a picture of St. Ansel at Big Sur using what appears to be a Horseman L series monorail!

Steve

Jim Rhoades
27-Jan-2005, 07:51
Ellen; Please don't try all the stunts that Chris Jordan has done. He is a trained professional. Wow, I can't say that I've ever used a toilet for a pre-soak. Ya learn something new here everyday.

Ellen Stoune Duralia
27-Jan-2005, 08:25
Thank you everyone! I appreciate the well-wishes, the tips, and ya'll crack me up too!

Steve, thanks for the heads-up about the drum scanner folks in Asheville - I'll have to mail my stuff but I'm in the northern part of SC so it won't take as long as some of the other service providers I have found [that are outragously expensive and in CA]. I am thinking about getting a flatbed, probably a 4870 but again, I probably won't do that right away. Then again, I might... I dunno!

Now about developing my own stuff... I've developed my own 35mm b&w before but I've never done color and have heard that it's expensive to try and do on your own. And where are you guys finding Jobo stuff? All the vendors I've ever looked at seem awfully expensive. I don't have a darkroom either so I would be comfortable with a daylight tank. Can someone send a link for where I might get a simple (and cheap!) set-up? In the meantime, I've found a fella in Charlotte who will develope my stuff for me.

Gosh! I sure am sleepy - had a hard time getting to bed last night 'cause I was excited and terrified at the same time.

Mark Sawyer
27-Jan-2005, 09:54
Wow, I can't say that I've ever used a toilet for a pre-soak. Ya learn something new here everyday.

--Jim Rhoades,

Actually, Jim, it's a great way to do rotary processing. Just a flip of the lever to change chemistry, nice swirling agitation, you can do an archival wash in the same container, and clean-up is so simple. And if the temperature gets too low, it's pretty easy to warm up...

Louis Jensen
27-Jan-2005, 12:04
Congratulations, your life (and bank account) will never be the same. A 4x5 camera and negative is a joy to use. If you ever want to go the 8x10 route, you should place your self in the wacko catagory.

John Kasaian
27-Jan-2005, 13:27
Mark,

Hey, that toilet "action" might well be useful in polaroid transfers as well as being a clearing tank for type 55P/N with the addition of the appropriate fluids(I won't even try to guess what would happen south of the equator where it goes counter clockwise!)--- LOL!

paulr
27-Jan-2005, 15:12
Welcome to the club!
We're here for a reason: you can't tie your own straight jacket.

Steve Hamley
27-Jan-2005, 17:17
"If you ever want to go the 8x10 route, you should place your self in the wacko catagory."

Louis, I resemble that remark!

Steve

Ellen Stoune Duralia
27-Jan-2005, 17:49
Now boys... don't fight!

Instead, direct some of that energy into something more productive, like helping me! LOL

I've been searching till I'm bleary eyed but I either haven't put in the right search terms or my eyes were crossed when I came across the info I was looking for. So here goes...

For developing my own b&w film, I am looking for a daylight tank of some sort that I could use for both 4x5 sheets AND 120 rolls that doesn't use an obscene amount of chemicals and that won't cost too much. Does such a thing exist? Should I have started a new thread for this?

One other little side question - how long do chemicals typically last? It's been YEARS since I developed a roll of film and I just can't remember :-)

Thank you :-D

kthompson
27-Jan-2005, 18:29
hey ellen--I don't know how close you are to Charlotte, but since you mentioned it....if you're looking for a community darkroom facility or maybe some classes in b/w printing or technique, you might be interested in the Light Factory:


http://www.lightfactory.org/about_us.htm (http://www.lightfactory.org/about_us.htm)

I was a member years ago and I think they still have a gang darkroom, even though they've moved since I was living down there. When I belonged, they had a darkroom with about 12 stations around a big island sink, and another smaller film room. They provide all the chemistry as well, but the darkroom can be used on a per hour fee (it used to be real low, like 3.50 or something like that) that is collected on an honor code type system. You have to be a member, but they also have classes in photography that cover different levels--and used to cover both b/w and color as well as technique.

Worth a shot anyway if you're looking for help and a darkroom to use. good luck at any rate with your new camera.

Jim Rice
27-Jan-2005, 20:42
Hi Ellen, Welcome to the bin.....err club. You'll probaly find that here in the....uh club that to be a true loony one has to shoot 8x10" or larger (I aspire, but have not yet achieved that level of.......umm sophistication). We 4x5 shooters are mearly "touched".

For developing my own b&w film, I am looking for a daylight tank of some sort that I could use for both 4x5 sheets AND 120 rolls that doesn't use an obscene amount of chemicals and that won't cost too much. Does such a thing exist?
No. the closest is the Jobo but it can fail the expense test or not. The classic stainless roll film tank takes care of the 120 pretty easily (though with more chemistry use than you might care for).

I found the the crappy plastic 4x5" tanks (ie: agitank) barely acceptable for black and white work but others have found them to be the road to hell. They also use a LOT of chemisty (think half a gallon). I never could get the hang of the classic stainless dunk and dip tanks (which require a darkroom). I always got streaks where the holes in the hangers were.

In any event a used Jobo is probably still the best bet.

tor kviljo
28-Jan-2005, 02:00
Hello again Ellen

What You need of JOBO equipment is not that expensive for set up: To devlope both 120/220/4"x5" (b&w/c41/E6) You will need a 2500 series tank, two reels for 35/120/220 film, and one reel (#2509n) for 4"x5" film + possiby the roller base. The roller base is very practical - espesially for kitchen-style e6 developing (the tank is then rotated in the sink which is filled partly with tempered water - 38c). For info, I put together b&h links to the items needed. Some can be picked up inexensive on ebay, but unfortunately - LF is alive & well, so the 2509n reel You might just as well purchase new - price will not kill You (approx US $$ 40 in Norway).

Links:
tank: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=25558&is=REG (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=25558&is=REG)
120/220/35-reel: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=25522&is=REG (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=25522&is=REG)
4"x5" reel: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=25534&is=REG (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=25534&is=REG)
rollerbase: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=25524&is=REG (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=25524&is=REG)

Somebody might tell You you need the JOBO loader for 4"x5" (jobo makes an expensive one), but I have never used that one. Just exercise a litte sheetfilm-loading in daylight before entering the darkness & it will wotrk out fine.

I started E6 dev. using stainless steel tanks & rolling the tank back & foth on the table - worked OK. Laziness & comfort + need for better repeatability leaded me to the jobo CPE2 and then ATL (auto processors, but using the same reels & tanks as listed above, save for a cog-type lid). I use Tetenal 3-bath E6 for slides, NOVA c41 press-kit for color neg. ID-11 for b & w. Ease of use makes c41 even faster than b & w neg.

Good luck.

Ellen Stoune Duralia
28-Jan-2005, 08:30
Thanks for the info - it will certainly get me started in the right direction :-)

Calamity Jane
28-Jan-2005, 16:46
Howdy Mz. Ellen,

I went against the advice of many more knowledgable folks and bought a Combi-Plan for my 4x5s. Being inherently stingier than a XXXXXX in a YYYYYY, I couldn't see laying out big money for even a bottom-end Jobo. I also have many decades running 35mm and 120 film in daylight tanks, so the Combi seemed a natural.

I don't know what processing costs are like down there but I have been using Agfa "Process 44" (a double batch of 500mL kits) and the price is about the same as sending my trannies to (the only) commercial lab in the area. (This is assuming I I get the full life from the chemicals, which hasn't been a problem.) The lab isn't convenient either!

E-6 really isn't difficult. If you are organized and control the temperature well, the results are super! (I will decline from making any gender-based remarks about "attention to detail" or "following directions" . . . .) I use a large tub with a slow flow of water to reach 100F and I allow plenty of time for the chemicals and the Combi to stabalize before I start and I write all the step times down so I always know when to change chemicals (until I built a microprocessor-based "multi-timer" - now it's all pre-programmed). Even if the temp varies a few degrees between the start of the process and the end, the results have been good.

I enjoy B&W but I LOVE colour transparencies in 4x5! There is a special satisfaction in doing it yourself to. Next step for me is colour prints :-)

Happy shooting!

Ellen Stoune Duralia
28-Jan-2005, 16:56
Hey ya'll!

Following directions is such a lovely ability, isn't it?! Tee hee hee

If you shop online, who are your favorite vendors for chemicals?

Stay warm - we're gonna have ice tomorrow - BURRRRR!

Andrew O'Neill
29-Jan-2005, 09:44
Hi Ellen,

Trays are definately the best way to develop sheet film...but if you are looking for a daylight tank that requires very little...and I mean very little developer, then you should get ahold of a few BTZS tubes. They're great! One tube requires only 60 ml of solution. And you can develop up to six tubes for different times. You can also have different films and/or solutions at the same time....for different times. Some people complain about the back of the films not being able to clear (they clear in the fixer) but I always wet load mine. Not an option if you don't have a darkroom. I still use mine occasionally. It's one of the few darkroom stuff I brought back with me when I left Japan for Canada...stuffed in my suitcase with some other darkroom stuff. I believe I bought the BTZS set (six tubes, caps and tray) at viewcamerastore.com. Much cheaper than JOBO. I have a couple of tubes for 8x10 (only need about 300 ml per tube).

Doug_3727
29-Jan-2005, 20:57
Ellen,
To get started try unicolor developing drums and rollers I have been using that setup on 4x5 and 8x10 for years after I sold the house (darkroom) and moved to take a new job. Get the 8x10 and 11x14 drums. Also get more than one. You can use a regular dark room enlarger timer to get the times right. Best of all it uses very little chemistry and can run with the lights on. One bigi big point I would relate to you. Buy the best changing bag you can afford. The large tent typle are the best. A large Harrison is what I use and is argueably the best. I use twine and clothes pins in the shower to dry my film. This is about as inexpensive as it gets. Also, very controlable and repeatable.
Good luck and welcome to LF.

John Kasaian
29-Jan-2005, 22:11
Ellen,

I'll second Doug's comments on the Unicolor system---what you want are the paper(for prints) drums for sheet film, not the film drums which are for roll film on spools. There is a link on Tuan's Large Format Home page to an article by Greywolf Phillips that taught me about using the Unicolor processor for sheet film---and it works! 4x5, 5x7,8x10,11x14, even 12x20(in the 16x20 print drum!) It saves space, chemicals, and you don't have to stand around in complete darkness ---is that cool or what??? Not as productive as shuffling a 'deck' in trays but hey, I find it more enjoyable to pop open a beer, contemplate a parallel universe and save the dark room for printing.

Cheers!