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Ironage
4-Jun-2015, 07:16
Just a quick question.

Can film be used in old plate holders? Are there any modifications necessary?

:confused:

Louis Pacilla
4-Jun-2015, 07:28
Yes. They are called film inserts which are made usually of aluminum and hold a sheet of film which is then slide into the plate holder. They were manufactured for years and can be found to fit most plate holder sizes but you will need to take the time to locate the correct inserts on eBay and then enough of them to fill as many holders as you wish to use. That could take a little time so get going and good luck.

Jim Jones
4-Jun-2015, 07:34
There are at least two ways to do this. One is to tape film to something that will support it in the plate holder. I use a sheet of aluminum the size of a glass plate but slightly thinner and painted black. The other way is to use a septum formed of thin metal, also painted black. Three edges are rolled over to form channels to hold the film. This holds the film slightly behind the plane of the ground glass. One can compensate for this by focusing slightly closer to the back after focusing on the ground glass, by shimming the ground glass, or letting the depth of field cover any focusing error. These septums were commercially available when film was replacing plates, and occasionally show up on the for sale/wanted forum here.

IanG
4-Jun-2015, 08:11
Film converters are quite easy to find I have then in Quarter plate, 9x12 & 5x4, no spares though at the moment.

I had planned to make some and bought the aluminium sheet a couple of years ago then got quite a few inserts in a bulk purchase of metal plate holders.

Ian

Joe Smigiel
4-Jun-2015, 10:18
This holds the film slightly behind the plane of the ground glass. One can compensate for this by focusing slightly closer to the back after focusing on the ground glass...

Jim,

Are you saying that one needs to correct focus if they use commercially-produced film sheaths like those made by Kodak for their plate holders, or are you just taking about homemade film sheaths?

IanG
4-Jun-2015, 10:48
On the film sheaths I have there's a0.24mm shift if the emulsion plane between a plate and a sheet of film in aa sheath, In practice no-one bothered to compensate when they were made and their images didn't suffer.

Ian

dwross
4-Jun-2015, 10:53
On the film sheaths I have there's a0.24mm shift if the emulsion plane between a plate and a sheet of film in aa sheath, In practice no-one bothered to compensate when they were made and their images didn't suffer.

Ian

+1

Jim Jones
4-Jun-2015, 19:27
The focus shift is very slight as Ian and Denise say. Perhaps people using Aero-Ektars wide open need to consider it. There are many other factors they should consider. For example, according to the 1951 ANSI standards for 4x5 film holders, there can be more shift in the position of the film than the 0.24mm in the septum emulsion plane that Ian measured. When using septums, I stopped down and didn't compensate.

jcoldslabs
5-Jun-2015, 01:04
Here is a photo of two Kodak sheaths for reference, although they came in sizes ranging from 2x3 to 8x10:

http://kolstad.us/ebay/CutFilmSheaths.jpg

Jonathan

Drew Bedo
5-Jun-2015, 07:08
Why not just get a few Film Holders? I understand the potential cost issue, but there ate tons of them available and they work great for film.

Joe Smigiel
5-Jun-2015, 08:18
Why not just get a few Film Holders? I understand the potential cost issue, but there ate tons of them available and they work great for film.

Easier said than done for some formats. I like whole-plate 6.5x8.5 and it seems most of the extant holders were originally made for glass plates. The format decreased in popularity in the early part of the 20th century and sheet film holders in that size are hard to come by especially for some camera models. There wasn't a standard for whole-plate in that era so one might have several different sizes of plate holders of the same format for different cameras, yet they all take the same size film sheaths. I wish I had about 20 more whole-plate inserts.

Louis Pacilla
5-Jun-2015, 08:26
Why not just get a few Film Holders? I understand the potential cost issue, but there ate tons of them available and they work great for film.

They may be for an older vintage camera that takes proprietary holders and the one/ones he has happen to be plate holders? I own quite a few American made late 1800's cameras each manufacture using it's unique holder for the same format. So finding another set of holders (film) would be difficult at best.

Joesph beat me to it!

BTW How you doing Joe? Been awhile since I've hung out w/ you. I believe it was @ brother Gunks back when he still liked us photographers.:rolleyes::)

DannL
5-Jun-2015, 09:08
My two pesetas. Depending on the type of subjects your pursue, if you find that your subjects are regularly out of focus, and something else located at another distance is regularly in focus, one method of fixing this is to reverse the focusing screen (aka; ground glass). It may help if you are using a plate camera with film inserts. In my experience, with my cameras, the thickness of the focusing screen is a close approximate to the distance in error. It's easy enough to measure from the lens board to the focusing screen and then compare that measurement to the measurement from the lens board and the film as it sets in an insert. I have one 8x10 that works great with just the focusing screen reversed. I then have this 5x7 camera that is so severe in that I had to flipped the focusing screen and then I still had to add shims between the focusing screen frame and the camera's case. But in any case, should one want to revert back to using plates, removing these modifications is a cinch.

IanG
5-Jun-2015, 09:25
Easier said than done for some formats. I like whole-plate 6.5x8.5 and it seems most of the extant holders were originally made for glass plates. The format decreased in popularity in the early part of the 20th century and sheet film holders in that size are hard to come by especially for some camera models. There wasn't a standard for whole-plate in that era so one might have several different sizes of plate holders of the same format for different cameras, yet they all take the same size film sheaths. I wish I had about 20 more whole-plate inserts.

Joe, there must have been a B.S. (British Standard), Kodak Ltd sold modern style Whole plate holders here in the UK and film & plates were available into the 1970's here in the UK. There was no standard fit for book-form holders only the plate size itself was standard. I have 4 different types fit Quarter plate Thornton Pickard plate holders.

Half plate and Whole plate were largely replaced by 7x5 in the US, a format we never had here until very recently. So you need to look in the UK for holders, the reverse is true for those of us here who shoot 7x5 there's almost no DDS second hand her. I saw some International style WP film holders for sale 2 months ago, the seller may still have them when I see him on 5th July.

At some stage I'm due yo buy two large shelves full of wooden book-form plate holders but I've no idea what's there until I finally get them which will be when the current owner gets around to clearing more space.

Ian

Ironage
5-Jun-2015, 13:36
I was just looking at a 3.5x5 camera which came with a plate holder. I ended up letting it go, because I didn't see any film holders or film sheaths available for that size.

Joe Smigiel
5-Jun-2015, 15:08
Joe, there must have been a B.S. (British Standard), Kodak Ltd sold modern style Whole plate holders here in the UK and film & plates were available into the 1970's here in the UK. There was no standard fit for book-form holders only the plate size itself was standard.

A few years ago I started measuring holders I had or taking dimensions from other posts here on the forum. This table is what I have so far for the whole-plate format:

134947

I eventually decided to pick up some Rittreck holders and backs since they seem to be more easily found and presumably were made into the late 20th century for the Rittreck 5x7 View Camera. I have 15 Rittreck holders so should be all set. I also recently picked up a Toyo whole-plate expansion back and 3 holders for it, so my plan is to use the backs to adapt other cameras to the whole-plate format rather than trying to find older Eastman film holders for example.

I'll probably end up selling the nice Eastman #2 whole-plate kit I have and just concentrate on the Japanese cameras and perhaps a ROC Carleton or Universal.

I've also seen 8x10 holders that had factory-modified septa to take whole-plate film, so I guess there are several different solutions at least in the whole-plate format.

Joe Smigiel
5-Jun-2015, 15:20
BTW How you doing Joe? Been awhile since I've hung out w/ you. I believe it was @ brother Gunks back when he still liked us photographers.:rolleyes::)

Doing OK Louis. I hope the same is true for you. That was a great weekend at Mr. Gunks homestead. Got to meet Petronio there as well. Good times! I miss reading of their escapades here.

jnantz
6-Jun-2015, 08:09
Just a quick question.

Can film be used in old plate holders? Are there any modifications necessary?

:confused:

hi ironage

i have a few falling plate cameras that have septum/sheaths that hold the glass
but i don't often use glass in them but paper negatives. what i do is get single ply
mat board and stick it in to raise the paper off the back of the septum, and it works OK.
i don't use film in these cameras so i can't help you there .. sometimes it is about
finding a solution that works with your problem ...
i also have plate cameras i use with modern film holders ( and film ), and never have issues with focus shift
( been doing both of these thing for over a decade ) ...

you might consider using paper negatives and doing a few tests to see
what works for you if you don't find sheaths ... one person's " looks great and no problem"
is another person's " uggh this is terrible "
paper negatives are cheap .. just remember to trim a teenby bit of the longside of the paper so it fits better in the holder.

good luck
john

Two23
10-Jun-2015, 05:11
I have some old book style half plate holders I use on an 1890s Watson & Son tailboard. I shoot 4x5 film in it. I do have some Kodak sheaths, but in the end I just cut some black foam core to fit in the holder and use that as a backing for the film. It seems to work very well. Shots come out focused anyway.

Drew Bedo
10-Jun-2015, 05:15
Easier said than done for some formats. I like whole-plate 6.5x8.5 and it seems most of the extant holders were originally made for glass plates. The format decreased in popularity in the early part of the 20th century and sheet film holders in that size are hard to come by especially for some camera models. There wasn't a standard for whole-plate in that era so one might have several different sizes of plate holders of the same format for different cameras, yet they all take the same size film sheaths. I wish I had about 20 more whole-plate inserts.

Right you are on all counts. Do whatever works best and shoot away. Just don't modify the camera itself. We do not actually "own" these vintage cameras in my view. It is my feeling that we are just stewards or curators maintaining them for the next generation of photographers.

IanG
10-Jun-2015, 10:34
I have some old book style half plate holders I use on an 1890s Watson & Son tailboard. I shoot 4x5 film in it. I do have some Kodak sheaths, but in the end I just cut some black foam core to fit in the holder and use that as a backing for the film. It seems to work very well. Shots come out focused anyway.

How do you know it's 1890's, Watson & Son were still selling exactly the same Half plate tailboard camera up until about 1960 and with book-form holders or an optional International back. After WWII Watson cameras were actually made by Gandolfi but the cameras were the same.

It's like the myth that TP roller blind shutters are from the 1890's, in fact they were also still made up until about 1960 and Kodak Ltd (UK) listed them in their 1940 Professional Catalogue.

Ian

Two23
10-Jun-2015, 17:26
How do you know it's 1890's, Watson & Son were still selling exactly the same Half plate tailboard camera up until about 1960 and with book-form holders or an optional International back. After WWII Watson cameras were actually made by Gandolfi but the cameras were the same.

It's like the myth that TP roller blind shutters are from the 1890's, in fact they were also still made up until about 1960 and Kodak Ltd (UK) listed them in their 1940 Professional Catalogue.

Ian


There is a Dallmeyer lens attached to it, and it's obviously original to the camera. Serial dates the lens to somewhere around 1896.


Kent in SD

IanG
10-Jun-2015, 21:06
There is a Dallmeyer lens attached to it, and it's obviously original to the camera. Serial dates the lens to somewhere around 1896.

Kent in SD


Makes sense, the name plate also helps there's W Watson & Son, then W Watson & Sonss, finally Watson & Sons Ltd. It is possible you're camera is older than the Dallmeyer lens. :D

Ian