Pyrocat HD semi stand/uneven dev

[RodinalDuchamp]

I have been using a dilute pyrocat HD for semi stand development to good success. My times are 30m with 1 min agitation for first min and another min of agitation halfway through.

For some reason I am now noticing on the last couple of batches some noticeable and image destroying unevenness in the sky areas.

It may have been happening all along but much less noticeable as my other shots had very little to no sky in them.

My dilution is standard. 1:1:250 and my temps have remained constant.

My first instinct is to increase agitation. Possibly to 1:30 at both intervals. However I do not want to lose the great compensating ability of pyrocat as I always pull my film.

Any suggestions? Dirty tap water? Inconsistent agitation? (I doubt this I use a figure 8 always) chemistry contamination?

[Regular Rod]

I have been using a dilute pyrocat HD for semi stand development to good success. My times are 30m with 1 min agitation for first min and another min of agitation halfway through.

For some reason I am now noticing on the last couple of batches some noticeable and image destroying unevenness in the sky areas.

It may have been happening all along but much less noticeable as my other shots had very little to no sky in them.

My dilution is standard. 1:1:250 and my temps have remained constant.

My first instinct is to increase agitation. Possibly to 1:30 at both intervals. However I do not want to lose the great compensating ability of pyrocat as I always pull my film.

Any suggestions? Dirty tap water? Inconsistent agitation? (I doubt this I use a figure 8 always) chemistry contamination?

How is the film positioned? I'm convinced that hanging or clipping film vertically leads to streaks, whereas laying the film down flat (as in a tray) means no streaks. Well none so far for me anyway...
:)
RR

[Steve Sherman]

I have been using a dilute pyrocat HD for semi stand development to good success. My times are 30m with 1 min agitation for first min and another min of agitation halfway through.

For some reason I am now noticing on the last couple of batches some noticeable and image destroying unevenness in the sky areas.

It may have been happening all along but much less noticeable as my other shots had very little to no sky in them.

My dilution is standard. 1:1:250 and my temps have remained constant.

My first instinct is to increase agitation. Possibly to 1:30 at both intervals. However I do not want to lose the great compensating ability of pyrocat as I always pull my film.

Any suggestions? Dirty tap water? Inconsistent agitation? (I doubt this I use a figure 8 always) chemistry contamination?

Greetings, I have done a far amount of this process and in the beginnings of perfecting the process some things just did not work for me, my dilution varies from 1.5 - 1 - 150 to 200 depending on what types of contrast I am trying to control. Less B leads to less fog when using extended development times.

I find going over 200 ml of water to chemistry the density drops and the molting or uneven development in blank areas becomes noticeable. I was never able to get the process regardless of dilution to work in a horizontal orientation, i.e. in a tray. I develop single sheets of film in 3" diameter tubes for 5x7 and 7x17 film with great success albeit one sheet at a time.

I believe your problem stems from insufficient agitation, that is where I had the biggest obstacles to overcome some 10 years ago. My initial agitations are between 1.5 minutes to 3 minutes, again depending on contrast in the scene. I have also gone to a two agitation regime such as 20 seconds divided between 20 - 40 minutes.

My use of the process is much more about controlling huge amounts of contrast swings rather than any increased sharpness, the micro contrast (sharpness) comes with the process even if total development is only 20 minutes.

Hope this is not too confusing, look to increasing your agitation especially the initial agitation time and increasing your dilution. Lastly, the process DOES NOT like over exposure, I use box speed on most films. Also, HP 5 has a few little anomalies that most other films do not suffer from with regard to the Semi - Stand process.

Cheers !

[Robert Langham]

I tried this for the first time this week. 8X10 in trays. 10-10-1000ml for six sheets. Constant agitation. Looked OK but I really don't know anything yet. Thought it might make a difference in the separation on the whites. Does this sound like a dead end? HP5 @ 400 ISO, 8:30 @ 72 degrees, water presoak and stop. Constant agitation taking the bottom sheet off and putting it on the top.

134868

[RodinalDuchamp]

How is the film positioned? I'm convinced that hanging or clipping film vertically leads to streaks, whereas laying the film down flat (as in a tray) means no streaks. Well none so far for me anyway...
:)
RR
Rod,

The film is always emulsion side up in a tray.

[dasBlute]

do the benefits of stand development really outweigh the risks?

[sanking]

do the benefits of stand development really outweigh the risks?

Yes, if you follow the directions of real experts (Steve Sherman for one) who understand what they are doing and know how to refine the procedures to minimize or eliminate the risks.

No, if you follow most directions.

Of course, this does depend on what benefits you want, and if these are reasonable expectations of the process. Stand development is not a magic bullet, though it has interesting and unique potential.

Sandy

[RodinalDuchamp]

do the benefits of stand development really outweigh the risks?
I don't mean to be rude but I am hoping this thread remains about correcting the mottling or uneveness in a pyrocat HD stand process.

Threads tend to get way off course when these questions begin to be raised and there are several threads already outlining the stand process.

[Andrew O'Neill]

It sounds like an agitation issue. I've been utilizing semi-stand for several years now with pyrocat-hd and HP5 8x10 in BTZS tubes (5ml + 5ml + 1200ml). It has taken quite a while and a lot of film to come up with something that works for me. Note, I do semi-stand, not stand. Development time is around a hour, with 2 vigorous agitation cycles, 5 sec each. For each cycle, the film is removed, inverted, and slipped back in. That seems to take care of any bromide drag.
My advice to anyone utilizing stand/semi-stand is to always shoot a backup... just in case.

[RodinalDuchamp]

It sounds like an agitation issue. I've been utilizing semi-stand for several years now with pyrocat-hd and HP5 8x10 in BTZS tubes (5ml + 5ml + 1200ml). It has taken quite a while and a lot of film to come up with something that works for me. Note, I do semi-stand, not stand. Development time is around a hour, with 2 vigorous agitation cycles, 5 sec each. For each cycle, the film is removed, inverted, and slipped back in. That seems to take care of any bromide drag.
My advice to anyone utilizing stand/semi-stand is to always shoot a backup... just in case.

Andrew,

You use 5 seconds of agitation? I'm agitating much more so than that. I have been reading that a standard tray doesn't work as well as a proper slosher cradle. I have one of them on order already BTW.

The mottling is ever so subtle in some frames and much more pronounced in others.

I'm thinking I may need more presoak time. I'm going to extend this to 5 minutes.

Then I'm going to agitate initially for 1:30 followed by 1 minute halfway through.

I wish I had a proper scanner so that I could share the results.

[Jim Noel]

"You use 5 seconds of agitation? I'm agitating much more so than that. I have been reading that a standard tray doesn't work as well as a proper slosher cradle. I have one of them on order already BTW."

That is purely advertising for the slosher. I have been using them since before they had a name - mine are made out of very fine stainless steel wire so I never have had problems with surge. Their purpose is only to enable one to process more than one sheet of film w/o having to stack them. I also had one of plastic, which I threw away. A smooth bottom tray one size larger than the film will do a superb job.

[RodinalDuchamp]

"You use 5 seconds of agitation? I'm agitating much more so than that. I have been reading that a standard tray doesn't work as well as a proper slosher cradle. I have one of them on order already BTW."

That is purely advertising for the slosher. I have been using them since before they had a name - mine are made out of very fine stainless steel wire so I never have had problems with surge. Their purpose is only to enable one to process more than one sheet of film w/o having to stack them. I also had one of plastic, which I threw away. A smooth bottom tray one size larger than the film will do a superb job.
Did the plastic slosher create problems for you?

I've read more than once about the currents that sloshers produce which tend to have beneficial properties. I take this with a grain of salt.

I'm not basing my problems on my tray however.

[dasBlute]

apologies for my intrusion...


I don't mean to be rude but I am hoping this thread remains about correcting the mottling or uneveness in a pyrocat HD stand process.

Threads tend to get way off course when these questions begin to be raised and there are several threads already outlining the stand process.

[sanking]

I have seen very good results with minimal agitation and semi-stand development with sloshers and would not worry about surge marks unless you actually see them.

With semi-stand development I would give vigorous agitation for about 45 seconds at the beginning of development, then vigorous agitation for about 20 seconds in the middle of the total time chosen.

I prefer minimal agitation, i.e. one initial agitation cycle, then another at the 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 points of development. This method minimizes in my work flow development artifacts.

In any event, the key to success is long vigorous agitation at the beginning, and very careful attention to detail.

Sandy

[RodinalDuchamp]

I have seen very good results with minimal agitation and semi-stand development with sloshers and would not worry about surge marks unless you actually see them.

With semi-stand development I would give vigorous agitation for about 45 seconds at the beginning of development, then vigorous agitation for about 20 seconds in the middle of the total time chosen.

I prefer minimal agitation, i.e. one initial agitation cycle, then another at the 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 points of development. This method minimizes in my work flow development artifacts.

In any event, the key to success is long vigorous agitation at the beginning, and very careful attention to detail.

Sandy
Sandy,

Thank you for pointing out that the agitation must be vigorous.

Now that I have read your recommendation and someone else also mentioned it earlier; I am reminded that my mentor mentioned when teaching me this developer that my agitations needed to be more aggressive than when using something like D76.

I am very excited so set up a still life with a close to pure white backdrop and get back on it.

When I have gotten good results they have been gorgeous.

[climbabout]

I have used Pyrocat HD and semi stand for many years and I develop my 8x10 in homemade 3" sch40 PVC - the film(FP4+) remains in a vertical orientation during the stand intervals. My solution is 1.5/1/175 and I agitate VIGOROUSLY for the first 2 full minutes by rolling the tube back and forth horizontally. The other 2 agitation intervals at 1/3 and 2/3 through the cycle consist of very gently inverting the tube twice over about 10-15 sec. Going to a vertical orientation, changing the dilution, increasing the initial agitation and performing a 5min presoak have largely eliminated the problems you describe. Steve Sherman and I worked very closely together refining this process for our own use years ago, Keep at it - the results are worth the trouble. After all you only need to develop each sheet of film once - the extra effort reaps dividends every time you print it.
Tim

p.s. Sandy and I must have been typing at the same time!

[Regular Rod]

Rod,

The film is always emulsion side up in a tray.

Then maybe a little bit more agitation?

RR

[RodinalDuchamp]

I have used Pyrocat HD and semi stand for many years and I develop my 8x10 in homemade 3" sch40 PVC - the film(FP4+) remains in a vertical orientation during the stand intervals. My solution is 1.5/1/175 and I agitate VIGOROUSLY for the first 2 full minutes by rolling the tube back and forth horizontally. The other 2 agitation intervals at 1/3 and 2/3 through the cycle consist of very gently inverting the tube twice over about 10-15 sec. Going to a vertical orientation, changing the dilution, increasing the initial agitation and performing a 5min presoak have largely eliminated the problems you describe. Steve Sherman and I worked very closely together refining this process for our own use years ago, Keep at it - the results are worth the trouble. After all you only need to develop each sheet of film once - the extra effort reaps dividends every time you print it.
Tim

p.s. Sandy and I must have been typing at the same time!
Thanks! I am very excited to set up a test tonight. I have seen what this combo can do and it's very beautiful and powerful. We were able to resolve close to 12 stops in a very difficult scene. Purely for testing but remarkable!

[RodinalDuchamp]

OK so I set up a still life.

I presoaked the film for 5 minutes. Then I agitates for 1:30 for the first minute then 1 minute halfway through.

Results: still mottled, splotchy, uneven in the patches of even valued tones.

Tomorrow I will try again with the same protocol as today BUT I will make sure all chemistry and presoak is at the same temperature.

If this does not fix the mottling/unevenness I will look into a more aggressive agitation technique.

I found this video which demonstrates a very lively technique which seems to work for the uploader

https://youtu.be/GWwN_T-FQyw

[sanking]

OK so I set up a still life.

I presoaked the film for 5 minutes. Then I agitates for 1:30 for the first minute then 1 minute halfway through.

Results: still mottled, splotchy, uneven in the patches of even valued tones.

Tomorrow I will try again with the same protocol as today BUT I will make sure all chemistry and presoak is at the same temperature.

If this does not fix the mottling/unevenness I will look into a more aggressive agitation technique.

I found this video which demonstrates a very lively technique which seems to work for the uploader

https://youtu.be/GWwN_T-FQyw

Based on my own experience and that of many others, mottling has not been an issue with recommended dilutions of 1+1+200. I think your problem may be in the very weak dilution, and if not, in the film itself. What film are you using?

The major problem with stand development is normally not mottling, but streaks from bromide development.

Sandy

[brucep]

Based on my own experience and that of many others, mottling has not been an issue with recommended dilutions of 1+1+200. I think your problem may be in the very weak dilution, and if not, in the film itself. What film are you using?

The major problem with stand development is normally not mottling, but streaks from bromide development.

Sandy

What is the minimum amount of pyrocat hd required to develop a sheet of 8x10? I assume if I could develop in 200ml, then I would need more than 1 + 1 of developer.

Bruce

[sanking]

What is the minimum amount of pyrocat hd required to develop a sheet of 8x10? I assume if I could develop in 200ml, then I would need more than 1 + 1 of developer.

Bruce

With a dilution of 1+1+200 I would use a minimum of about 500 ml for a sheet of 8X10 film, with a slosher. In a standing tube you will need to use even more, whatever it takes to fill the tube.

Sandy

[Taija71A]

... It may have been happening all along but much less noticeable as my other shots had very little to no sky in them.

... Results: still mottled, splotchy, uneven in the patches of even valued tones.


... and if not, in the film itself. What film are you using?

Agreed with Sandy. What film... Are you using?
Are these sheets 'perhaps' from your expired (1997) batch of Tri-X Film?

If so... This could explain your persistent mottling problem.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Andrew,

You use 5 seconds of agitation? I'm agitating much more so than that. I have been reading that a standard tray doesn't work as well as a proper slosher cradle. I have one of them on order already BTW.

The mottling is ever so subtle in some frames and much more pronounced in others.

I'm thinking I may need more presoak time. I'm going to extend this to 5 minutes.

Then I'm going to agitate initially for 1:30 followed by 1 minute halfway through.

I wish I had a proper scanner so that I could share the results.
Yes, 5 seconds. It seems to be enough for rotary (BTZS). Twenty seconds in, and 40 minutes in. I forgot to mention that I initially give 1 minute agitation at the start. Inverting the film is important. I don't bother with a presoak.

[RodinalDuchamp]

Agreed with Sandy. What film... Are you using?
Are these sheets 'perhaps' from your expired (1997) batch of Tri-X Film?

If so... This could explain your persistent mottling problem.
This is new tri-x from b&h, nope not the expires film. That's in a separate box altogether.

[RodinalDuchamp]

I have used Pyrocat HD and semi stand for many years and I develop my 8x10 in homemade 3" sch40 PVC - the film(FP4+) remains in a vertical orientation during the stand intervals. My solution is 1.5/1/175 and I agitate VIGOROUSLY for the first 2 full minutes by rolling the tube back and forth horizontally. The other 2 agitation intervals at 1/3 and 2/3 through the cycle consist of very gently inverting the tube twice over about 10-15 sec. Going to a vertical orientation, changing the dilution, increasing the initial agitation and performing a 5min presoak have largely eliminated the problems you describe. Steve Sherman and I worked very closely together refining this process for our own use years ago, Keep at it - the results are worth the trouble. After all you only need to develop each sheet of film once - the extra effort reaps dividends every time you print it.
Tim

p.s. Sandy and I must have been typing at the same time!
Thank you very much.

[RodinalDuchamp]

Based on my own experience and that of many others, mottling has not been an issue with recommended dilutions of 1+1+200. I think your problem may be in the very weak dilution, and if not, in the film itself. What film are you using?

The major problem with stand development is normally not mottling, but streaks from bromide development.

Sandy
Sandy,

I am using tri-x 320. New stock.

I have had some success going to 1 minute initial agitation, then 15 seconds at 1/3 and again at 2/3 total time. I have also modifies my agitations to be much more vigorous than before.

I still have some mottling but much less sever.

Tonight I will try 30seconds at both 1/3 and 2/3.

I am fairly certain I have not been agitating enough at this point, which has lead to the problems.

If that doesn't resolve the issue completely I'll try a longer initial agitation.

Thank you for your help its been very valuable.

[RodinalDuchamp]

Greetings, I have done a far amount of this process and in the beginnings of perfecting the process some things just did not work for me, my dilution varies from 1.5 - 1 - 150 to 200 depending on what types of contrast I am trying to control. Less B leads to less fog when using extended development times.

I find going over 200 ml of water to chemistry the density drops and the molting or uneven development in blank areas becomes noticeable. I was never able to get the process regardless of dilution to work in a horizontal orientation, i.e. in a tray. I develop single sheets of film in 3" diameter tubes for 5x7 and 7x17 film with great success albeit one sheet at a time.

I believe your problem stems from insufficient agitation, that is where I had the biggest obstacles to overcome some 10 years ago. My initial agitations are between 1.5 minutes to 3 minutes, again depending on contrast in the scene. I have also gone to a two agitation regime such as 20 seconds divided between 20 - 40 minutes.

My use of the process is much more about controlling huge amounts of contrast swings rather than any increased sharpness, the micro contrast (sharpness) comes with the process even if total development is only 20 minutes.

Hope this is not too confusing, look to increasing your agitation especially the initial agitation time and increasing your dilution. Lastly, the process DOES NOT like over exposure, I use box speed on most films. Also, HP 5 has a few little anomalies that most other films do not suffer from with regard to the Semi - Stand process.

Cheers !
Steve,

Thank you VERY much. So far all of my testing has lead me to believe in fact my agitation is insufficient. I had success in a Nikon tank with no mottling at all but unfortunately my tank always produces areas of over development where the developer flows faster through the center of the reel.

I also had success when moving from an initial agitation and then another halfway through to an initial agitation and then at 1/3 and 2/3 total time.

I'm getting much closer. If increasing the agitation times does not clear the problem completely I will try 1:1:200 but then I will need to recalculate my total development time. Do you have a suggestion you might be able to offer for tri-x 320 at that dilution? I typically develop at 72*F.

[sanking]

"I am using tri-x 320. New stock."

If the mottling is not caused by the film, then the strength of the working solution would be my next concern. What is the dilution you are currently using?

I have not personally used Tri-X in a very long time so can not give any specific information about best practice with minimal agitation procedures.

Sandy

[RodinalDuchamp]

"I am using tri-x 320. New stock."

If the mottling is not caused by the film, then the strength of the working solution would be my next concern. What is the dilution you are currently using?

I have not personally used Tri-X in a very long time so can not give any specific information about best practice with minimal agitation procedures.

Sandy
I am still using 1:1:250. I am trying to rule out that it is agitation related. Testing one variable at a time.

If I go to 1:1:200 I really don't know where to start in terms of total development time. Since it's a 20% stronger dilution I guess logically I would start at 20% less time.

[climbabout]

I am still using 1:1:250. I am trying to rule out that it is agitation related. Testing one variable at a time.

If I go to 1:1:200 I really don't know where to start in terms of total development time. Since it's a 20% stronger dilution I guess logically I would start at 20% less time.

I will share with you my "N" minimal agitation development times for FP4+ dilution is 1.5/1/175 - total time is 28min at 70deg F. - developed in a homemade PVC tube as I mentioned earlier. Stand intervals are done with the tube in a vertical orientation. The actual amount of chemistry in ml is 12/8/1400. 5 min presoak - then First 2 minutes vigorous agitation rolling the tube back and forth horizontally. 2 gentle inversions at 17m 20s and 2 more at 8m 40 sec. Sandy King, Steve Sherman and Bob Carnie have all seen my negs and can comment on their quality.

One other consideration also regarding very dilute solutions in a tray - you may be using so little actual developer that may also be contributing to your problem.

Tim

[sanking]

I am still using 1:1:250. I am trying to rule out that it is agitation related. Testing one variable at a time.

If I go to 1:1:200 I really don't know where to start in terms of total development time. Since it's a 20% stronger dilution I guess logically I would start at 20% less time.

Rodinal,

Try about 30 minutes with a 1+1+150 dilution, with three or four agitation cycles. If you still have mottling, then the problem would not be in the strength of the solution.

Bear in mind that the working solution of Pyrocat (1+1+100) contains about less total amount of reducing agents than about 99% of all developers, and Tri-X is a thick emulsion film that may require more energy than most films.


Sandy

[RodinalDuchamp]

Rodinal,

Try about 30 minutes with a 1+1+150 dilution, with three or four agitation cycles. If you still have mottling, then the problem would not be in the strength of the solution.

Bear in mind that the working solution of Pyrocat (1+1+100) contains about less total amount of reducing agents than about 99% of all developers, and Tri-X is a thick emulsion film that may require more energy than most films.


Sandy


I will share with you my "N" minimal agitation development times for FP4+ dilution is 1.5/1/175 - total time is 28min at 70deg F. - developed in a homemade PVC tube as I mentioned earlier. Stand intervals are done with the tube in a vertical orientation. The actual amount of chemistry in ml is 12/8/1400. 5 min presoak - then First 2 minutes vigorous agitation rolling the tube back and forth horizontally. 2 gentle inversions at 17m 20s and 2 more at 8m 40 sec. Sandy King, Steve Sherman and Bob Carnie have all seen my negs and can comment on their quality.

One other consideration also regarding very dilute solutions in a tray - you may be using so little actual developer that may also be contributing to your problem.

Tim
Thank you both so much. I'll post back when I have some further positive results.

[Steve Sherman]

Steve,

Thank you VERY much. So far all of my testing has lead me to believe in fact my agitation is insufficient. I had success in a Nikon tank with no mottling at all but unfortunately my tank always produces areas of over development where the developer flows faster through the center of the reel.

I also had success when moving from an initial agitation and then another halfway through to an initial agitation and then at 1/3 and 2/3 total time.

I'm getting much closer. If increasing the agitation times does not clear the problem completely I will try 1:1:200 but then I will need to recalculate my total development time. Do you have a suggestion you might be able to offer for tri-x 320 at that dilution? I typically develop at 72*F.

Before a recommendation can be made I would need to know the amount of contrast in the scene and also the final process, i.e. silver, Pt / Pd or other.

I know it can be a hot debate but for me it is quite simple, I presoak for the simple reason, Have you ever tried to clean up a spill with a completely dry sponge? The dry sponge doesn't like to absorb fluid in a uniform manner, how is dry film any different ?

2 cents

[RodinalDuchamp]

SUCCESS!! I tested from 7am to 2am into the following day. But I have finally achieved even development all throughout.

I increased my agitation technique, went to 3 agitation intervals, and had to go to a 1:1:200 dilution but in the end it was all worth it.

I burned at least half a box of film but boy I couldn't be happier.

I have to thank Sandy, Steve, Tim and everyone else who chimed in. I am ecstatic. I will try to get the final sheet scanned so I can hopefully have something to show.