Developing old Super-XX: Can I do better?

[BarryS]

I just got a 5x7 camera to see if the format works for me, and looking at my 5x7 film stock--the cupboard is quite bare. The bulk of what I have is about 250 sheets of 1974 Super-XX. I shot 10 sheets at EI 100 and test developed the first one in 1.5:1.5:100 Pyrocat HD for 12 minutes @ 68 degrees F. Using a (non-UV) densitometer, I got the following readings:

base+fog = 0.35
DMax = 1.78

Can I get a better a density range? I'm going to be contact printing the negs, but the fog and DR will dictate the process I use. Although I'd like to make albumen prints, it may not be practical. The reading for my current 8x10 negs on TMX are:

base+fog = 0.10
DMax = 1.97

If I increase the development time, will the DMax gain density appreciably faster than the base fog? Would increasing the developer concentration to 2:2:100 be better for suppressing the fog? What about adding benzotriazole? I've also read that HC-110 may be better with old film--can it be used in rotary processing? Is it likely to knock down the fog density in comparison to the DMax? Any help from forum members with vintage film experience is appreciated.

[Drew Wiley]

Super-XX was a true thick emulsion film. So one risk with old film is the emulsion frilling or blistering off, or possibly reticulating. So you want to be quite careful
to keep your temperature between different solutions, including the wash water, fairly close, and preferably not above 20C. Otherwise, good luck - you'll need it!

[Drew Wiley]

Oh... yeah, your base fog isn't horrendous at this point, and Super-XX normally accepted quite a boost in gamma with prolonged development, but that just increases the risk of what I just described. Few films have as low a fbf as Tmax. Give longer development a try; but you might end up on a tight rope. It was
a wonderful film.

[chris_4622]

Ask at: http://michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum/default.asp
Michael should be able to help you.

[BarryS]

Thanks Drew and Chris. I'm being very careful with temperature, thanks to the Jobo and Intellifaucet. Honestly, the results are better than I expected, and the fog is uniform--so I should be able to print through it. The development time is probably best kept short, but I'll also check the Azo forum.

[coisasdavida]

My experience with old film like that is that DK-50 works quite well clearing the base and getting some contrast back.

[Jim Noel]

I still use D-76 at 68-70 deg. F. for Super XX. The heavy base fog is not unusual. Super XX has an extremely long straight line curve and thus is able to produce a very long tonal range. Although I use PyrocatHD for most modern film. I do not use it with this one.

[Peter De Smidt]

Try upping the Pyrocat dilution, say to 2 + 2+ 100.

[Jim Noel]

"If I increase the development time, will the DMax gain density appreciably faster than the base fog? Would increasing the developer concentration to 2:2:100 be better for suppressing the fog? What about adding benzotriazole? I've also read that HC-110 may be better with old film--can it be used in rotary processing? Is it likely to knock down the fog density in comparison to the DMax? Any help from forum members with vintage film experience is appreciated."
1. Yes the HL density will increase more rapidly than the base fog.
2. Increasing the concentration will not suppress the fog. Developing with less agitation(aeration) by tray development will reduce the base fog. Doing so reduced my salt printing times by almost 50%.
3. I just re-read some negatives from the 1950's. The base fog was not significantly less than I get today with D-76.
When Super XX was on the market the most common developers for it were D-23, D-76 and DK-20. Some used ABC Pyro, but this is a pyrocatechol developer, not a pyrocatechin.

[ic-racer]

In general maximum density is an asymptote that is approximated by the following formula

Y = Yz (1-e^-kt)

Y = Gamma
Yz = Maximum gamma the film can produce with maximum development
e = 2.71828
k = a constant for the film in question
t = development time

Short answer to your question: Keep testing with increased development times until your Dmax stops increasing.

[BarryS]

I tried adding 15 ml/liter of 1% benzotriazole to the developer and increasing the development time to 22 minutes. The negatives were unacceptably thin and still look like they have some base fog. It seems like I'll just need to print through the base fog and maybe forget the idea of albumen prints. I'll try tray development with some HC-110 or D-76 next. Even if I can up the DR and DMax, I'm concerned that the base fog will make my print times too long. I'm shooting two sheets of everything, so I'll have a full undeveloped set once I get it dialed in.

[sun of sand]

The antifoggant restrainers would increase contrast as well as slow the emulsion speed and increase grain of an already grainy enough film
Excellent expansion capability

Could try moderate restrainers and lose some amount of fog minor amount to 1 stop of speed
gain minor grain and contrast

Develop longer in more accutance developer
Rodinol works and ABC pyro also worked very well for old film base fog

[sun of sand]

Well that's about a moderate level of anti fog
I do believe combining bromide with it helps for some reason
Maybe 10ml 1% and 4ml bromide
Expose at 50-64

At some point the film ends up less than useful trying this

[emh]

Barry- I can hook you up with a few sheets of fresh FP4, if it will help.
Eddie

[BarryS]

Barry- I can hook you up with a few sheets of fresh FP4, if it will help.
Eddie

Eddie--Thanks for the offer, but I think I can figure out a way to make the Super-XX work for some kind of printing. I have some Delta 100 on order from the Ilford ULF run, but it would be a shame to waste all this film.

[Peter De Smidt]

Pyrocat MC gives a bit lower fog than HD. MC also builds density a bit quicker.

[emh]

Eddie--Thanks for the offer, but I think I can figure out a way to make the Super-XX work for some kind of printing. I have some Delta 100 on order from the Ilford ULF run, but it would be a shame to waste all this film.
When you're ready to sell some of the Super-XX, let me know. It would work well for my no camera/no lens photos.

[jnantz]

hi barry

do you have any dektol or ansco 130 ?
they are active, and will not fog your film up as much ..
for ansco i would suggest 1:6 for about 7-8.5 mins
dektol i haven't used as much but about the same would be OK as well ..

have fun !
john

[JW Dewdney]

personally i wouldn't use an anti fog but rather just a cutting reducer after the fact.

[BarryS]

After some experimentation, I decided that Pyrocat HD isn't going to work for me--the film speed loss is too severe--maybe an EI of 12 or 25. The benzotriazole also knocked down film speed much faster than it suppressed base fog. It seems like you can alter dmax and DR with a lot of methods, but moving the needle on the base fog can only be done at the expense of film speed or dmax. Using HC-110 dilution B for 6.5 minutes didn't appreciably affect base fog, but gives me an EI of 100 and plenty of density. Pulling development to 5 minutes just knocks down the density.

Here's a low-contrast scene, and printing through the fog (Ilford MGIV) is no problem with magenta filtration equivalent to about grade 4.

http://i.imgur.com/fqvpdnP.jpg

Super-XX starts to act interesting with high contrast scenes. The density keeps building without compressing the highlights. This shot is with no filtration (grade 0) and the silver gelatin paper can't quite match the DR of the film. A reasonably fast self-masking alternative process (salt printing?) might be possible.

http://i.imgur.com/bto7RsU.jpg

[ic-racer]

If it is still too contrasty with "0" paper, it is over-developed for that scene. The density range of any film is determined by the relative tonal compression of the shoulder. The relationship between the tones on the straight part and the shoulder is independent of development.

[BarryS]

If it is still too contrasty with "0" paper, it is over-developed for that scene. The density range of any film is determined by the relative tonal compression of the shoulder. The relationship between the tones on the straight part and the shoulder is independent of development.

Right, the second neg is overdeveloped if a silver gelatin print is the goal, but I'm still interested in salt and albumen prints if the printing times aren't too egregious. That's why I'm trying to push the DR up to see how the film responds. Because Super-XX builds density so linearly, it opens some possibilities that wouldn't be there with other fogged films.

[Jim Noel]

My primary use for it is salt prints.