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celtic9
15-May-2015, 14:58
Hello everyone,

since I have recently acquired my first LF camera I'm looking to purchase 2-3 lenses, ranging between 100mm and 230mm. Prices of the DB lenses make them extremely attractive, yet it's a totally new concept for me. Would you recommend starting out with those or would you just buy some good, "regular" glass?

Oh and if I'm at it, maybe you could name a few of your favourite lenses. I mostly work with a 65mm in MF, eg. rather wide, but not too wide.

Thanks for your time, I feel like I'll be spending many nights on here :cool:

Peter De Smidt
15-May-2015, 15:07
DB lenses are meant to be used with a Sinar shutter. If you don't have a Sinar shutter, than you don't want DB lenses. Ok. You could use them with something like Packard shutter. DB lenses are less expensive than lenses mounted in a shutter, because the DB lenses are much less versatile. With, say, a copal shutter, you can use it on any view camera where the lens will fit.

celtic9
15-May-2015, 15:16
Of course I'd additionally have to get a Sinar shutter as well, thanks for the reminder.

Mark Sampson
15-May-2015, 15:21
And you'd need a Sinar camera to hold the shutter as well (you didn't say what camera you've bought). I'm not just being facetious; the Sinar is an excellent camera system, but their shutter fits only their camera (and perhaps Horseman monorails).

lbenac
15-May-2015, 15:27
Or you could also get a Shen Hao XPO45 which accept a Sinar shutter albeit with restricted front movements for field work.

It is of course a lot more expansive than a used Sinar F or F2 as you won't find one used which might not fit with your primary concern of cost....
It might make more sense to stick with less specialized equipment specially at the beginning.

Cheers,

luc

celtic9
15-May-2015, 15:32
Sorry guess I should have mentioned that I have a Sinar F2 (that's what drew my attention to DB lenses at the first place).

Peter De Smidt
15-May-2015, 16:04
So you'd have to buy a Sinar shutter. They run from between $400 and $700, and you have to get the special cable release. It's often missing. Replacing it would be at least $100. Will you save enough on the lenses that you buy to pay for the shutter and cable? Would you want to possibly use the lenses on another camera?

The second thing to consider is that there's a fair amount of vibration with a Sinar Copal shutter. I know, as I have one. You need the special cable release because not only does the cable fire the shutter, it has to move the aperture into it's shooting position. There is definitely more vibration with a Sinar shutter as opposed to a regular shutter. 'B' has the least vibration. None of this was a problem for it's intended use, which predominantly is a studio using strobes. The duration of the strobe stopped motion. For available light use, though, you'd have to be very careful, especially with an F, as opposed to a P.

celtic9
15-May-2015, 16:11
So you'd have to buy a Sinar shutter. They run from between $400 and $700, and you have to get the special cable release. It's often missing. Replacing it would be at least $100. Will you save enough on the lenses that you buy to pay for the shutter and cable? Would you want to possibly use the lenses on another camera?

The second thing to consider is that there's a fair amount of vibration with a Sinar Copal shutter. I know, as I have one. You need the special cable release because not only does the cable fire the shutter, it has to move the aperture into it's shooting position. There is definitely more vibration with a Sinar shutter as opposed to a regular shutter. 'B' has the least vibration. None of this was a problem for it's intended use, which predominantly is a studio using strobes. The duration of the strobe stopped motion. For available light use, though, you'd have to be very careful, especially with an F, as opposed to a P.

Thanks Peter, your post pretty much answers it all. First of all, I'll only planning to purchase 2-3 lenses (to start with), which means that I probably wouldn't safe much if I would go the DB route. I probably won't use them on another camera, but good to know that I COULD use them with other cameras. And finally, I'm mostly working outside, so the plus on vibration would certainly be a big issue and a reason to go with regular lenses while learning the in and outs.

Thanks everyone!

Peter Yeti
15-May-2015, 17:32
I use the Sinar shutter a lot and love it. Since it is a self-cocking shutter, vibrations may be a little stronger than with standard shutters as Peter mentioned. However, at least on my Sinar P I never experienced any trouble caused by vibrations. I think the real limitation for field use is that the maximum speed is 1/60 of a second.

Since apparently you just start out with LF, it might be best to first get only one standard lens and use it for a while. Once you acquainted yourself with the LF world a bit you'll have a better idea what lenses and equipment you really need. If you buy wisely, you can trade the first lens with hardly any loss.

Peter

lbenac
15-May-2015, 17:37
Well one good reason to purchase a Sinar shutter is if you plan to use barrel lenses.
You could use a combination of modern lenses on DB board and/or a set of nice barrel lenses with many aperture blades all with the same system.

Bernice Loui
15-May-2015, 19:01
Do a search on this forum on Sinar Shutter.

Facts are, the perceived vibration problem is precisely that, user perceived problem. As a Sinar shutter user since the early 1980's to this day and exposing thousands upon thousands of sheets of film from 4x5 to 8x10, in controlled studio conditions to cold wet rainy outdoor conditions, that Sinar shutter continues to work to this day.

If vibrations were a problem would Sinar continue selling the same basic design for decades and not have a customer base revolt with rejection of shutter vibration induced problems?

What does need to be done, hold the shutter release down until the exposure time is complete. this makes a very significant difference in the amount of shutter closure kick-back.

As for 1/60 sec being a limitation, consider how often sheet film exposures are made at that shutter speed? Adding a neutral density filter easily fixes this possible issue with the 1/60 second shutter speed. What is far more useful is the shutter timing of 8 seconds.

The Sinar shutter does indeed allow using most any lens or optic on camera. This is a HUGE advantage if there is an interest in using vintage optics in barrel or non-standard optics. That is when the Sinar shutter comes into it's own.

DB lenses are more of a user convenience feature that is more useful in the studio setting than in the field. Beyond the self stopping down feature, adding the film holder coupling cable closed down the shutter when the film holder is in place.

The later black version of the Sinar shutter release cable is not cheap, but holds up well. The earlier chrome versions is not nearly as robust. Shopping can take the cost sting out of purchasing a Sinar shutter. Consider for a moment why the Sinar shutter continue to hold market value while the Sinar camera values are less than the cost of a Sinar shutter.

Lens choice should be dictated by image making needs (this is where it becomes complex with no easy answers) rather than cost.


Bernice

Peter De Smidt
15-May-2015, 19:21
"If vibrations were a problem would Sinar continue selling the same basic design for decades and not have a customer base revolt with rejection of shutter vibration induced problems?"

It all depends on the extent of the problem, doesn't it? And the only way to know that would be to do careful tests, which aren't easy to do. You'd need the same lens in a DB mount and a Copal shutter for starters. How many people have photographed for years with a film plane alignment issue, or film holders that are slightly off, or a not perfectly stable tripod.... Without a standard of comparison, it can be difficult to see the loss of quality, which can be subtle, but that doesn't mean that it isn't there. Nonetheless, even if there is a loss of quality with the Sinar shutter, it doesn't mean that one can't be used to take great pictures.

I have a P2. It's easy to feel the vibration difference between a Sinar shutter and Copals.....

Bernice Loui
15-May-2015, 19:37
Indeed, film inspected using a Leitz research grade microscope would reveal shutter vibration problems, no?

Been a Sinar P, C and F user for decades yet to discover or find a vibration problem with using the Sinar shutter.

Voicing your opinion, OK. Now prove the Sinar shutter vibrations results in image sharpness problems.

This is already developing into another fight over nothing..


Bernice




"If vibrations were a problem would Sinar continue selling the same basic design for decades and not have a customer base revolt with rejection of shutter vibration induced problems?"

It all depends on the extent of the problem, doesn't it? And the only way to know that would be to do careful tests, which aren't easy to do. You'd need the same lens in a DB mount and a Copal shutter for starters. How many people have photographed for years with a film plane alignment issue, or film holders that are slightly off, or a not perfectly stable tripod.... Without a standard of comparison, it can be difficult to see the loss of quality, which can be subtle, but that doesn't mean that it isn't there. Nonetheless, even if there is a loss of quality with the Sinar shutter, it doesn't mean that one can't be used to take great pictures.

I have a P2. It's easy to feel the vibration difference between a Sinar shutter and Copals.....

Peter De Smidt
15-May-2015, 20:46
Yes, of course. I have to prove my contention but you don't. Nicely played.

In their brochure on the shutter, the folks at Sinar say:
"The release at the B setting is particularly soft to permit completely silent and vibration-free exposure when the camera is precariously mounted or in other special cases (e.g. also for multiple exposures.)."

Why would they point that out if there weren't cases where the vibrations caused by the non-B settings caused issues?

There are a number of online discussions where people see vibration problems with Sinar shutters, along with other people saying there is no problem. Anyone interested should get one of their own and see for themselves.

Peter Yeti
16-May-2015, 08:48
Peter,

I don't think we need to start a "religious war" on this topic and I don't see much disagreement anyway. No question that the Sinar shutter causes "more" vibration than a built-in central shutter. But does this matter in practical application? I can second everything that Bernice wrote from my own experience. You are a Sinar user yourself and you may agree that they don't make foul compromises regarding image quality.

Anyway, here is an illustrative test I made for myself once, actually one I did with all of my cameras. It wouldn't pass scientific standards, though. I level the camera on a solid tripod and place a coin on top of the camera, sitting on it's edge. Then I trip the shutter and watch what happens. Using the Sinar shutter, the coin may shake a tiny bit if you look very carefully but it doesn't fall. That is, if you handle the cable release carefully as with any other camera. This test also revealed that most of the vibration happens after the exposure, exactly as Bernice wrote. Same set up using a central shutter of a lens shows no perceivable vibration in agreement with your point. Now the interesting comparison: When I did the same test with my Hasselblad, the coin fell down roughly every second time. I think that should give some confidence in using a Sinar shutter. Of course I wouldn't recommend using it on a ramshackle tripod. I think that's what the manual refers to.

Piece?:)

Peter

8x10 user
16-May-2015, 08:55
I started with an 8x10 P2 and DB lenses. DB lenses are a great way to save money but keep in mind that the Sinar system is not very portable compared to field camera alternatives.

As for vibrations, I have drum scanned and eversmart scanned the chromes I shot with this system and I estimate the resolvablity where in focus to be ~3000 PPI. These were mostly outdoor shoots and were not done under flash lighting. Vibrations from the shutter did not seem to be an issue. Of course a 4x5 kit would have lighter lenses which may be more vibration prone.

For my digital work I use a Sinar 54h with SinarCam 2.

Peter De Smidt
16-May-2015, 10:09
Good to know.

Bernice Loui
16-May-2015, 10:19
Previously posted. Scroll down to post# 38.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?111424-Post-YOUR-Red-Dot-Artar-Pics/page4&highlight=post+red+dot+artar+images


Image made using a Barrel (ex-process camera lens) 19" Red Dot Artar @ f16 with Sinar shutter, Sinar C, windy day by the bay. Look at the cropped-scanned section. See any vibration problems? or lens not optimized for infinity problems?

Have yet to see a ruined sheet of film from Sinar shutter vibrations over the thousands of sheets of film exposed over decades of using barre lenses with a Sinar shutter.


This will be the last comment made about this vibrations from the Sinar shutter affecting image quality. If one does not believe, get a Sinar shutter in proper working order and do the test on their own. Do consider why Sinar sold these shutters for decades since the Norma until Sinar stopped offering DB lenses. If there were vibration problems that affected image quality, Sinar users would have stopped purchasing-using the Sinar shutter decades ago.... and if the Sinar shutter was such a problem, their market value would not be what they are today... previously stated.

Bernice

Peter De Smidt
16-May-2015, 11:38
Analogously, if sheet film holders can give less sharp images than glass plates, then users would've stopped purchasing sheet film holders decades ago. Nonetheless, standard sheet film holders don't hold film as flat as a glass plate, and careful tests show that it can impact recorded detail. None of which means that you can't take a very good photo with sheet film in standard holders.

Alan Gales
16-May-2015, 16:41
I own a Sinar P 4x5 and picked up a Sinar F outfit off of Ebay cheap due to it missing the rail clamp. I parted the outfit out keeping what I wanted and selling the rest. I sold the Sinar shutter and cables that came with the camera but I played with the shutter before I did. I will say that it is really slick to use. If all your lenses are mounted on DB boards or you use barrel lenses it is the way to go in my opinion. The problem I had was that all my lenses were in shutter and mounted on Technika style boards so I could swap them back and forth between my Sinar and my Tachihara.

hiend61
27-May-2015, 06:33
I purchased a Sinar Shutter when I got my Apo Sinaron 9/600. ItŽs a great solution for barrel lenses. I havenŽt experienced vibration problems. To avoid vibration problems, first push the shutter release cable to the half, and in a second steep press fully to make the shot, and hold the pressure until exposure time is complete, as Berenice says. In B position its extremely quiet, so I prefer using the Sinar shooter rather than the B or T position in my Copal or Compur lens shutters. All my Rodenstock/Sinaron lenses are factory mounted in boards that allow using both Lens shutter and Sinar shutter. That said, If I had to decide if I purchchase DB lenses from the beginning, the answer would be yes in the case I purchase four lenses or more, and could afford to have a back up unit. If a Sinar shutter fails, your whole lens set fail and youŽll need a back up if you do not want to stop shooting.

RSalles
27-May-2015, 21:18
Hiend61 sad:
" If a Sinar shutter fails, your whole lens set fail and youŽll need a back up if you do not want to stop shooting."

Very well noted. Bought mine some months ago and I guess I'll have the spare in hand in the near future,

Cheers,

Renato

Bernice Loui
28-May-2015, 09:52
Sinar shutters are very reliable ... if they are in known good condition.

If the Sinar shutter in question has never been clean-lubed-serviced, have that done sooner than later as preventative maintenance. Indeed, if the Sinar shutter being lugged around dies, it can be a serious bummer. The cost for this is very low considering the possible risk of problems.

To balance out this risk of Sinar shutter failure, the wide angle lenses in the kit are in shutter. Since there are two wide angle lenses plus the Sinar shutter for the other lenses, there should be at least one lens that remains functional.

Carrying a spare Sinar shutter is an alternative, it still needs to be assured of it's condition and performance and carrying a spare shutter adds to the kit pile.

The greater risk for problems is a broken ground glass, this happened to me once and that was a complete stopper. Since that incident, being really, really careful with the ground glass has become a absolute priority. Carrying a spare is also an option.



Bernice




Hiend61 sad:
" If a Sinar shutter fails, your whole lens set fail and youŽll need a back up if you do not want to stop shooting."

Very well noted. Bought mine some months ago and I guess I'll have the spare in hand in the near future,

Cheers,

Renato

RSalles
28-May-2015, 10:23
Bernice,

Very well reminded, by my part, ASAP and with the spare shutter in hand, I'll send the old one to clean & lube just in case.
As Murphy's legis, I'll try to keep at least one good Copal #1 and #3 from the number of lenses which I get to test and replace/sell from the lens set,

Cheers,

Renato

Ken Lee
28-May-2015, 11:49
With respect to vibration, you might find be interested in this test (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/aponikkor610/Nikkor610Test.php) with a 610mm APO Nikkor lens.

The photo was made outdoors at 1/60 @ f/22. If there is any vibration evident in the negative, it is beyond the reach of my scanner, and possibly beyond the resolution of the lens + film grain etc.

RSalles
28-May-2015, 18:14
Ken,

No vibe to my eyes.
What about 1S at f45 shot with a Staeble Ultragon and a Sinar Copal shutter?

Pic:

https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7747/18181131915_404eff6e76_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/tGB46D)7416-17-Rodinal (https://flic.kr/p/tGB46D) by Renato Salles (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sallesrenato/), no Flickr

Crop:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_0KU7vEF2PE8Wli6zmdC73usJcRJbi-68fbmri0-Law=s628-no

No complain by my part,

Cheers,

Renato

Peter De Smidt
28-May-2015, 19:04
This is good info, but it doesn't really settle the matter, not that most things can be "settled" on an internet forum. Will the results with a Sinar shutter and a Sinar P, a heavy lens, at 1/60th of a second produce the same result as a Sinar F, a light lens, and 1/2 second? Without a careful test, which is non-trivial, we don't know. For some hints on serious testing, see: http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF5.html#newchart. But even if it was demonstrated that there is indeed a loss due to vibration, adherents could simply claim that the difference is unimportant, the shutter out of spec, or the test poorly performed. I could spend precious photo time performing such a test, but there's little motivation to do so. If you have one, and it works well for your purposes, that's great.

hiend61
31-May-2015, 12:50
Sinar shutters are very reliable ... if they are in known good condition.

If the Sinar shutter in question has never been clean-lubed-serviced, have that done sooner than later as preventative maintenance. Indeed, if the Sinar shutter being lugged around dies, it can be a serious bummer. The cost for this is very low considering the possible risk of problems.

To balance out this risk of Sinar shutter failure, the wide angle lenses in the kit are in shutter. Since there are two wide angle lenses plus the Sinar shutter for the other lenses, there should be at least one lens that remains functional.

Carrying a spare Sinar shutter is an alternative, it still needs to be assured of it's condition and performance and carrying a spare shutter adds to the kit pile.

The greater risk for problems is a broken ground glass, this happened to me once and that was a complete stopper. Since that incident, being really, really careful with the ground glass has become a absolute priority. Carrying a spare is also an option.



Bernice

Sinar shutters are indeed very reliable, but if possible, having a back up unit ads peace of mind, like having, as you say, spare ground glass and fresnel lens, release cables, focusing loupes, and all small stuff whose failure can stop the job. In more than 25 years using large format I only needed spare cable releases, and focusing loupes, but who knows in a future

Ken Lee
31-May-2015, 14:06
This is good info, but it doesn't really settle the matter, not that most things can be "settled" on an internet forum. Will the results with a Sinar shutter and a Sinar P, a heavy lens, at 1/60th of a second produce the same result as a Sinar F, a light lens, and 1/2 second? Without a careful test, which is non-trivial, we don't know. For some hints on serious testing, see: http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF5.html#newchart. But even if it was demonstrated that there is indeed a loss due to vibration, adherents could simply claim that the difference is unimportant, the shutter out of spec, or the test poorly performed. I could spend precious photo time performing such a test, but there's little motivation to do so.

You are right :)

Paul Ashley
5-Jun-2015, 20:26
With respect to vibration, you might find be interested in this test (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/aponikkor610/Nikkor610Test.php) with a 610mm APO Nikkor lens.

The photo was made outdoors at 1/60 @ f/22. If there is any vibration evident in the negative, it is beyond the reach of my scanner, and possibly beyond the resolution of the lens + film grain etc.
Q

Sinar shutters are indeed very reliable, but if possible, having a back up unit ads peace of mind, like having, as you say, spare ground glass and fresnel lens, release cables, focusing loupes, and all small stuff whose failure can stop the job. In more than 25 years using large format I only needed spare cable releases, and focusing loupes, but who knows in a future


I use the Sinar shutter a lot and love it. Since it is a self-cocking shutter, vibrations may be a little stronger than with standard shutters as Peter mentioned. However, at least on my Sinar P I never experienced any trouble caused by vibrations. I think the real limitation for field use is that the maximum speed is 1/60 of a second.

Since apparently you just start out with LF, it might be best to first get only one standard lens and use it for a while. Once you acquainted yourself with the LF world a bit you'll have a better idea what lenses and equipment you really need. If you buy wisely, you can trade the first lens with hardly any loss.

Peter