Creating Digital Negative

[Jerry Cunningham]

Dear Sir:
I am a beginner but serious. I shoot 4x5 and 8x10 Black and White. I want to take one of my silver negatives and create a retouched 4X5 negative that I can use in my conventual enlarger.
What kind of equipment do I have to have to do such a thing? Or is using an outside digital lab the most economical? I would GREATLY appreciate any help.
Sincerely,
Jerry Cunningham

[steve simmons]

If you want a traditonal neg you will need a film output device. I doubt you will want to buy one yourself. I would suggest finding a lab/service bureau to do this. You will also need to have your films canned which you may or may not want to do yourself.

An alternative is to make a neg to contact print. Many articles have been done on how to use a consumer table top digital printer to do this. CmeraArts magazie in their Dec 04/Jan 05 issue has a very good article on this. (I am no longer associated with CameraArts and will not benefit from your contacting them).

www.cameraarts.com

steve simmons

[steve simmons]

PS

You could use Polaroid Type 55 P/N film in your camera and not need a darkroom at all. This film scans very well and would be a great place to start.

If you are new to large format there are several articles in the Free Articles section of the web site listed below that might be helpful.

steve simmons
www.viewcamera.com

[Bruce Watson]

In the old days, people would retouch directly on the negative. The backing side of most negative material today still has some retouching tooth. You can use retouching "paints" like the old SpoTone materials, or retouching pencils, chalks, etc. When you are done, toss 'em in the enlarger and away you go. That was a serious art form all its own; people used to make their living as negative retouchers in commercial photography studios. Those famous 1940s Hollywood portraits were done that way, for example.

Today, it's much more likely that people will scan the negative, modify the image in a photo editor, then output the new image to a film recorder to make a negative for contact printing (no reason you can't enlarge, from a 4x5 original to, say, a 16x20 negative). You can also use an inkjet printer to make your negative by printing on clear film. There are books about how to do this. Burkholder comes to mind:


http://www.danburkholder.com/Pages/main_pages/book_info_main_page1.htm (http://www.danburkholder.com/Pages/main_pages/book_info_main_page1.htm)

I suggest getting a copy of Burkholder's book (or a similar book) and reading up on what it takes before you go looking for a service bureau that can make a film recorder or inkjet negative for you. That way you'll have a better idea of the terminology and capabilities - make life easier for you and the service bureau if you can both talk the same language. Might save you some expensive trial and error experiments too.

[steve simmons]

The technique described by Mark Nelson in the Dec/Jan CameraArts is a more up to date method and has gotten a lot of attention.

www.cameraarts.com

to get an issue or look in Borders, Barnes and Noble, etc.

steve simmons

[Kirk Gittings]

The Mark Nelson approach is very well laid out, very clear. Though I ultimately decided to fully explore inkjet before moving on to other tradigital methods, I learned an enormous amount from buying and reading his text.

[Ralph Barker]

Kirk - tradigital - is that the same as digalog? ;-)

[Kirk Gittings]

I'm not sure Ralph. Tradigital is a term I stole from Newman at Calumet at the last VC conference. He uses it in a different sense. To me it aptly describes where I am at right now, still shooting traditional film but printing digitally.

[Christian Olivet]

Jerry, I was just considering the same thing for some of my negatives. It would be great to do all burning dodging and retouching in photoshop and then output a new negative wiith all corrections made. The solution is to send the digital file to a lab and have them out put to film with a LVT film recorder. These machines have an amazing resolution and your neg will look just like an in camera neg but hopefully it will print very easily and better. I have never done it myself but have seen the work of Peter Gasser online with the use of this methot and let me tell you, it is impressing.
Now the counterpatrt it that this will set you back a couple of hundred dollars.

[Brian Ellis]

I attended a presentation by Mark Nelson a couple nights ago in which he demonstrated his method of making enlarged negatives from 35mm originals. He displayed some of his pt/pd prints made from these negatives. Pretty impressive. No special equipment is needed. He 's produced a CD book for about $60 and it should tell you all you need to know. Sorry I don't have his web site address handy, maybe Kirk has it or you could Google for it.

[steve simmons]

Try

www.marknelsonphoto.com

ender100@aol.com

steve simmons

[Jerry Cunningham]

I want to thank everyone for their kind answers. I am buying the suggested book, getting the magazine artice and tracking down Mr. Nelson for his CD book.
Thanks Again,
Jerry Cunningham

[steve simmons]

I think I posted the wrong web site for Mark Nelson

Here is the correction

www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com

sorry

steve simmons

[Al Seyle]

Apparently the Burkholder and Nelson methods result in a neg for contact printing. Jerry's original question was about creating a 4x5 neg for enlarging. Has anyone ever printed such a film recorder 4x5 neg to at least 1620 or larger with acceptable results?

[steve simmons]

It has been done and works if you have actual 4x5 film output from a film recorder. The file size is quite large. It is my suggestion that you find a service bureau and talk to them about file size requirements.

steve simmons

[Eirik Holmøyvik]

Check out this page for an introduction and guide (pdf-format) by David Fokos.


http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/Technical_papers/Digital%20Info/Dave_Fokos/davetech.htm (http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/Technical_papers/Digital%20Info/Dave_Fokos/davetech.htm)

[Al Seyle]

FWIW I found this info but could get a response at www.ltv.com---Not cheap!

• New LVT Rhino Image Recorder at Exceptional Low Price

TUXEDO, N.Y. — DICE AMERICA introduces the new LVT RHINO Image Recorder: a high-resolution, desktop film recorder that writes digital images on 4 x 5 inch (10.2 x 12.7 cm) and 8 x 10 inch (20.3 x 25.4 cm) transparency and negative films. With a base price of $34,900 in the US, the LVT RHINO combines LVT’s proprietary LED light source, new electronics, and a fixed resolution of 80 pixels per millimeter (res 80) in a compact, tabletop unit. The new desktop recorder will be available in August.

Using the same light source as our other, proven LVT film writers, the LVT RHINO takes full advantage of the broad dynamic range of photographic film, while reproducing perfectly smooth vignettes, color blends and skin tones. The new recorder is TIFF-file ready, and can write a full 223 MB file on a 4 x 5 inch transparency or negative in under 10 minutes.

"By introducing the LVT RHINO at an exceptionally low price while keeping the same high-quality output standards of current LVT products, we have made true, photographic quality film output available to a much broader customer base", said Rick Jiloty, General Manager, LVT Division of DICE AMERICA. "We anticipate the increased use of film — especially in 4 x 5 inch formats — for stock `multiple originals’, as well as for international printing projects, quick file references, archival storage, and for backing up higher-cost digital paper recorders in commercial labs."

Art Shufelt, President of DICE AMERICA, purchased the LVT Division from Eastman Kodak Company in February, 1998. In addition to new and current LVT Image Recorders, DICE AMERICA’s products also include CHEETAH - the number one RIP/Server for RGB film and paper recorders, and OPUS - online software to easily manage and interact with millions of the largest digital files. For more information go to: www.lvt.com, and www.diceamerica.com. For sales, phone LVT division of DICE AMERICA: (716) 544-8910, ext. 5999 (USA) or ext. 5257 (International); or DICE AMERICA: (914) 351.2677. (Note: CHEETAH, DICE AMERICA, LVT, LVT RHINO and OPUS are trademarks.)

[Roger Krueger]

Don't expect to have nearly the resolution in LVT neg that you have in your original neg. 2x or 3x enlargements, sure; past that you probably won't be happy. Moving up a size from your shooting size may help (that is, make an 8x10 LVT neg from a 4x5 camera neg.) Getting a big imagesetter neg for contact printing is a much better bet.

[Rick Jiloty]

LVT may no longer be available - but the firm that manufactured it is now:

Dice America
135 Calkins Rd.
Suite D
Rochester, NY 14623
P >585.486.9900
F >585.486.9901
http://www.wi-pics.com/ (Wi Fi for Professional Digital Cameras)
.
Rick Jiloty, VP, Sales, DigiProofs www.digiproofs.com (online viewing and ordering systems for event photographers.

[shannaford]

Hi all, I'm looking for some technical information on how David Fokos deals with his images once they reach the computer. I understand he wrote a technical paper which was freely available about creating digital negs some time ago, but all the links I've come across seem to be broken. Does anyone have a copy they could pass on?
thanks,
Scott

[Richard M. Coda]

Jerry:

Go to Chicago Albumen Works (http://www.albumenworks.com/lvt_prices_working_photogs.htm). Oleg is the man to talk to over there.

I have done several negatives this way. The silver prints from these negatives are indistinguishable from in-camera LF negatives. If you are printing silver I believe this is the best way to go. If you are doing Alt processes, then the other methods may suffice.

Good luck,

Rich

[sanking]

Scott,

You can download the Fokos article as a .pdf file from Bostick & Sullivan.

http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/techart.php

The two most popular methods of making digital negatives today for alternative printing are Mark Nelson's PDN method (www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com/) and Ron Reeder's QTR method (http://www.ronreeder.com/).


Sandy King








Hi all, I'm looking for some technical information on how David Fokos deals with his images once they reach the computer. I understand he wrote a technical paper which was freely available about creating digital negs some time ago, but all the links I've come across seem to be broken. Does anyone have a copy they could pass on?
thanks,
Scott

[shannaford]

Thanks for the links Sandy,
Cheers,

[shannaford]

Oops, just checked that link to David's paper, and the page comes up but all the linked files are broken:confused: Anyone else know where to get a copy? Ta.

[Jim Michael]

Does anyone manufacture a substrate suitable for making very large digital negs for large contact prints (preferably UV transparent and on rolls about 30")?

[Jeff Bannow]

You can get Pictorico in 36" rolls http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/home.php?cat=170

[sanking]

Oops, just checked that link to David's paper, and the page comes up but all the linked files are broken:confused: Anyone else know where to get a copy? Ta.

Sorry, I forgot to verify the link. I had downloaded it from the B&S site several times in the past and just assumed that the link was still working.

Sandy

[D. Bryant]

I was able to recover a copy of the Fokos method by using the WayBack machine. I have it stored as a copy of a web page.

If anyone wants a copy, PM me and I can e-mail it to you.

Don Bryant