ULF 7X17 What size Dark Cloth? What type? I'm new to daylight...

[Tin Can]

I shoot primarily in studio or 4x5 outside with a flip open GG viewer.

Now I want to go outside with 7X17 and only buy or make one dark cloth, not buy 2 when I figure out what's up. The ones I use inside are not going to work.

I have looked at Harrison Silver Classic Dark Cloth on eBay and fortunately looked at B&H where they sell for less than eBay...

Maybe medium is Ok or do I need a complete spinnaker? The large? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/446773-REG/Harrison_2036_Silver_Classic_Dark_Cloth.html/prm/alsVwDtl

I like that it's waterproof, it rains often here, silver for sun and has weighted corners.

Anybody use these?

[Steve Sherman]

Based on the measurements of the large I must have the medium. Works perfectly on my phillips 7x17 the velcro side of the Harrison D cloth is somewhat cinched and when stretched fits nicely around the camera and has ample coverage for the 7x17 ground glass. Plus it is very light weight
$100.00 for a D cloth seems crazy anyway

[Tin Can]

Based on the measurements of the large I must have the medium. Works perfectly on my phillips 7x17 the velcro side of the Harrison D cloth is somewhat cinched and when stretched fits nicely around the camera and has ample coverage for the 7x17 ground glass. Plus it is very light weight
$100.00 for a D cloth seems crazy anyway

Thanks Steve, window shopping.

I like to research and get opinion. The big one does sound more like a hazard than a help. I used to working under dimmed lights with only my subject lit, now I'm turning on all the light and experimenting.

Tornados tonight, not good for sails.

[pierre506]

Dark cloth jack is better choice.
I bought the material(cloth) from a bellows maker to make my dark cloth jack for 12x20 camera.
It's very light.

[Tin Can]

Dark cloth jack is better choice.
I bought the material(cloth) from a bellows maker to make my dark cloth jack for 12x20 camera.
It's very light.

Not sure what that is. I use a piece of torn common black cloth in studio, but it will blow away in a breeze. This is the windy city.

There are no bellows makers for 1000 miles here.

[Lachlan 717]

I'm not sure whether you realise it or not, but, with these bigger formats, you need to have your eyes further back when you look at the GG in its entirety. You'll need to take this in to account when considering the size of the dark cloth. It can become a pain when you then go to the loupe as the fabric can drape in front of your eyes.

[pierre506]

Not sure what that is. I use a piece of torn common black cloth in studio, but it will blow away in a breeze. This is the windy city.

There are no bellows makers for 1000 miles here.
132140
This way, Randy.
You may find a similar cloth around you.

[Tin Can]

132140
This way, Randy.
You may find a similar cloth around you.

I have something like that for 8x10, it's silver and came with the camera, but will not work on this 7x17, I feel if I use something like that I will knock the rig over. I want a big flat cloth to cover bellows and head and I focus with my with my eyes right off the GG, it's the only way I can see. I stand back with glasses on and get over all composition. I'm kinda blind and it's not getting better, but why worry now? :) They let me drive a car...with goggles. I drive well, no crashes, no tickets.

[Tin Can]

From all this, I think 4 x 4 feet or 1.2m sq.

I'll try that.

Thanks everyone.

[plaubel]

From all this, I think 4 x 4 feet or 1.2m sq.



Seems enough to cover the GG :-)
For my 12x16", I use an old cloth with 100x140cm , and it feels too small (indoor it is ok).
Not wide enough to see the whole image, and no chance to bring the edges together, at the bottom of the camera. But this is important to me, if I use a camera outdoor.

Cheers,
Ritchie

[Doug Howk]

The Korona is not the sturdiest of cameras,so heavy clothe or one with elastic will upset your focusing. Also weights on corners can be hazardous in winds. My wife made me a 4X4 with two layers (white and black) of lightweight material. I use small clamps at corners in lieu of Velcro.

[William Whitaker]

I'm not sure whether you realise it or not, but, with these bigger formats, you need to have your eyes further back when you look at the GG in its entirety. You'll need to take this in to account when considering the size of the dark cloth. It can become a pain when you then go to the loupe as the fabric can drape in front of your eyes.

This is a good point. I have a number of BTZS hoods that work well for me. One [rather large one] works well for 12x20. It's much lighter and more compact when folded than most conventional d-cloths would be. (I've not tried the Harrison, but have wanted to. Too many other things to pay for right now!) The BTZS hood, or similar, with its elasticized skirt makes it easier to block out light around the perimeter of the ground glass which is nice when using small apertures or wide lenses when seeing the outer regions of the image is much more difficult. And there's plenty of room for me to move my head back to a good viewing distance without the whole thing sliding off the camera in a heap.

For focusing I follow Fred Picker's old suggestion of using a pair of drugstore reading glasses which provide much more eye relief and allows me to see the image in context. There's a lot to see on a big GG! That's part of the fun of it... A loupe is good when you're finally ready to commit the image to a big expensive piece of film.


I have something like that for 8x10, it's silver and came with the camera, but will not work on this 7x17, I feel if I use something like that I will knock the rig over.

With experience you will develop a kinesthetic sense which will give you better confidence while dancing with your partner. As with anything, practice...
I do still manage to tangle my size 12's with the tripod legs at times, though.

[Jim Noel]

I'm not sure whether you realise it or not, but, with these bigger formats, you need to have your eyes further back when you look at the GG in its entirety. You'll need to take this in to account when considering the size of the dark cloth. It can become a pain when you then go to the loupe as the fabric can drape in front of your eyes.

This is the reason my 5x8 foot cloth works so well. White on the outside and black satin like material on the inside so my head can slide around as necessary to view the corners. Heavy enough to prevent being blown around unless the wind is very strong. Sadly the custom maker had to move and go out of business.

[Jim Noel]

The Korona is not the sturdiest of cameras,so heavy clothe or one with elastic will upset your focusing. Also weights on corners can be hazardous in winds. My wife made me a 4X4 with two layers (white and black) of lightweight material. I use small clamps at corners in lieu of Velcro.

My 5x8 foot cloth has never "Upset" my focusing and it blocks all the light. I always keep it on the camera while making exposures and have had no problem. I found my 4x5 foot cloth totally inadequate for the 7x17.

[Tin Can]

My 5x8 foot cloth has never "Upset" my focusing and it blocks all the light. I always keep it on the camera while making exposures and have had no problem. I found my 4x5 foot cloth totally inadequate for the 7x17.

Just before Jim, posted his respected opinion, I had come to the conclusion I was thinking too small, as I found this LFPF thread with these recommendations about Paula Chamlee dark cloths (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?45930-About-dark-cloth&p=440581&viewfull=1#post440581).

I also find Jim's recommendations particularly useful as he sold me this camera and he continues to use a 7x17 Korona. So I will try a large Harrison first. It will be good to have waterproof with me, and it can be folded to act as camera cushion in my cart. Jim has also advised me to keep the dark cloth in place all the time and use it as light shield for film holders and entire camera. Bigger seems better.

I have been setting up and taking down the 7x17 in studio and trying all kinds of things before hitting the street.

Discarded 2 Manfrotto tripods as unsuitable, and will use a Majestic, it has definitely more securely clamped legs. I bumped the folding lever locks on a Bogan 3033 and it nearly dropped the camera. NG Watch for it on CL, it's fine, but I will never trust it again.

Since this Korona came with the OE bed stiffeners and a necessary rear extension, good for balancing the weight fore and aft, at 10 lbs all up, it is sturdy enough, with a solid tripod and a weighted darkcloth will add a pound. A 12" lens does not extend the bellows fully and will lessen longer bellows effects.

News later in the 7x17 holder thead.

[Lachlan 717]

Be very careful with removing and replacing the dark slides. Clamping the back with your hand as you remove it is critical. It is far too easy to lift the holder slightly and introduce a light leak!!

I use a big BTZS hood on mine. Quite heavy, but does a cracking job. I drape it over the rear when ready to shoot. Due to the heavier gauge material needed for the big dark slide means a wider orifice, meaning light ingresses through it easier than, say, 4x5" holders. The dark cloth blocks this.

Can I also recommend a Majestic 6x7" head? Yep, it's big and heavy. But the big plate is unparalleled in providing a stable platform for the camera. They're cheap, too!

[Tin Can]

Thanks Lachlan,

I am getting the biggest Harrison for the purpose of covering all, even when changing DS and yes, I will push the holder firmly. I feel Korona has a superior spring back system and it holds very tightly. But a helping hand is always best, I'm sure. I have seen online the light leaks 7x17 is capable of.

Jim Noel, recommends I black out the holder flaps, and I will also do that, maybe more.

My single leg Majestic tripod is plenty for this purpose, I also have a double leg, that's way overkill. This is the older Grey/blue model with a matching 6X7" head. It carries a C1 easily. I like Majestic heads, I have 4 of them. I also bought NOS last of stock Majestic camera screws 2 years ago. The factory is local to me.

My first shots will be from the flat roof 2 stories up.

[William Whitaker]

I feel Korona has a superior spring back system and it holds very tightly. But a helping hand is always best, I'm sure.

Whew! Not the ones I've seen!

Maybe you could post a picture of the back of yours, Randy. My curiosity is piqued.

[John Jarosz]

Randy, you don't know it yet but you're on a steep learning curve.

+1 on the Majestic. That's the ticket.

Darkcloth: I agree you need to be further from the GG for composition. My choice is the Blackjacket.
http://quietworks.com/FRAMES_FILES/BJ_SPECIFICATIONS/BJ_NEW_HOME_FRAME_.htm

Light leaks can be a problem with ULF. Even a slight warpage of the GG frame or camera back can cause a light leak. The only way to prevent this reliably is to leave the darkcloth over the entire back. The Blackjacket has an elastic border that goes all around the back. You leave it in position the entire time. There is a seperate opening for you to insert the filmholder and remove the darkslide. Way more complicated than the simple darkcloth but it IS effective. Film costs are high and having to reshoot is not fun and sometimes is not possible. This is insurance. It's a good product. I have no financial interest in the company, I'm just very satisfied.

John

[Tin Can]

Randy, you don't know it yet but you're on a steep learning curve.

+1 on the Majestic. That's the ticket.

Darkcloth: I agree you need to be further from the GG for composition. My choice is the Blackjacket.
http://quietworks.com/FRAMES_FILES/BJ_SPECIFICATIONS/BJ_NEW_HOME_FRAME_.htm

Light leaks can be a problem with ULF. Even a slight warpage of the GG frame or camera back can cause a light leak. The only way to prevent this reliably is to leave the darkcloth over the entire back. The Blackjacket has an elastic border that goes all around the back. You leave it in position the entire time. There is a seperate opening for you to insert the filmholder and remove the darkslide. Way more complicated than the simple darkcloth but it IS effective. Film costs are high and having to reshoot is not fun and sometimes is not possible. This is insurance. It's a good product. I have no financial interest in the company, I'm just very satisfied.

John

You mean this. I got one with a camera. It's on a linhof 8x10 here, won't fit the 7x17, nor will allow inserting darkslides. The Linhof can handle all the elastic, can the Korona?

This thing might be a knockoff as it has no Black Jacket tags, no tags at all. It is black inside.

I wish the website showed ULF applications.

132167

[Tin Can]

Whew! Not the ones I've seen!

Maybe you could post a picture of the back of yours, Randy. My curiosity is piqued.

Will, in the 1915 Korona brochure http://piercevaubel.com/cam/catalogs/1915gundmanlp482.htm they brag of this proprietary design...I think it really works.

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[William Whitaker]

That's what I expected to see, Randy, and it's what I've encountered before. You can't convince me that two short springs at the center of the back can provide even (or adequate) pressure along the length of a 7x17 film holder.

I don't mean to belittle your camera at all. As I indicated before, Koronas are nice cameras. However, I disagree with their engineers and marketing department on the effectiveness of short springs at the midpoint, especially on a banquet (panoramic) format where there is a long moment arm acting against them. I believe that four independent springs, preferably with overleaves will provide much more even pressure and be less susceptible to unintentional displacement while removing or replacing a dark slide. I have replaced these springs more than once. However, YMMV, and I hope it does. No insult or disrespect intended!

[Tin Can]

That's what I expected to see, Randy, and it's what I've encountered before. You can't convince me that two short springs at the center of the back can provide even (or adequate) pressure along the length of a 7x17 film holder.

I don't mean to belittle your camera at all. As I indicated before, Koronas are nice cameras. However, I disagree with their engineers and marketing department on the effectiveness of short springs at the midpoint, especially on a banquet (panoramic) format where there is a long moment arm acting against them. I believe that four independent springs, preferably with overleaves will provide much more even pressure and be less susceptible to unintentional displacement while removing or replacing a dark slide. I have replaced these springs more than once. However, YMMV, and I hope it does. No insult or disrespect intended!

No worries, I didn't design it, but I will battle test it. :)

And I will tell the story.

[William Whitaker]

I'm sure you will Randy... If I can be of assistance, do let me know.

[Tin Can]

I'm sure you will Randy... If I can be of assistance, do let me know.

Thanks Will!

[Lachlan 717]

The back on my Korona seems to hold it well.

I've got 'Dorff-style on my new DIY 7x17 as they're easy to make (relative!) If I could get my head around a bail arm, I'd include it to allow a higher tensile force. I'll see how the current one goes.

[Doug Howk]

My Korona seems to be of same vintage as yours, Randy. Smooth operating with center springs. I have had an occasional light leak, but now always leave darkclothe draped over back while shooting.
I have a wind stabilizer from AWB that gets some occasional use especially with a longer lens. Might be useful in the Windy City.

[John Jarosz]

I wish the website showed ULF applications.

He may have some pics he could send you. I've had mine for so long I've forgotten. He's very helpful. If you ask him I'm sure he can give you some additional info.

[Tin Can]

The Harrison Large Dark Cloth arrived. Very nicely made. There is no way I could have made one as nice, with all the velcro, waterproof material, and this lightweight for anything like the price of this.

It has velcro on 2 complete sides, which works great to surround the bellows and seal the bottom. Nobody told me how well it works or how it works. Not B&H, not here and not eBay.

Here it is engulfing my 8x10 Linhof.

This is a great product.

132544

[Lachlan 717]

They do make good gear!!

[Tin Can]

They do make good gear!!

I might add that my Linhof is the same as the camera used in their advertising...A very rarely seen camera. I think 7X17 Korona's are way more common.

I like that if it rains, I have cover for myself and my camera.

As opposed to my Datsun Fairlady Roadster which had no top and when it rained, I would stop, cover the car in a custom cover and stand in the rain until rain stopped. LOL :)

[Roger Thoms]

The Harrison Large Dark Cloth arrived. Very nicely made. There is no way I could have made one as nice, with all the velcro, waterproof material, and this lightweight for anything like the price of this.

It has velcro on 2 complete sides, which works great to surround the bellows and seal the bottom. Nobody told me how well it works or how it works. Not B&H, not here and not eBay.

Here it is engulfing my 8x10 Linhof.

This is a great product.

132544

Know this is an old thread, but Randy do you still use your Harrison darkcloth? If so how do you like it after 4 years? And specifically how did it work on your 717? Just asking because the "perfect" darkcloth is the last piece of the puzzle for my 717.

Thanks!!!
Roger

[Tin Can]

I like it fine. I use it on 3 cameras.

The Deardorff S11, the 7X17 and soon on Seneca 11X14.

No problems with it at all, but I did read about the tents and will pack it even more loosely in a bigger than stock bag when not using it for expedition.

Keep it dry and ventilated. Very damp here, far more so than Chicago.


Know this is an old thread, but Randy do you still use your Harrison darkcloth? If so how do you like it after 4 years? And specifically how did it work on your 717? Just asking because the "perfect" darkcloth is the last piece of the puzzle for my 717.

Thanks!!!
Roger

[Roger Thoms]

Thanks, of course now everyone seems to be out of stock on the large. :(

Roger

[William Whitaker]

Lachlan makes a good point.

For my 2¢.... When I was shooting 7x17 I used a focusing hood from the View Camera Store and it worked very well for me. The largest size I see listed is 11x14. But that is probably it as 11x14 and 7x17 are roughly equivalent, size-wise.