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bob carnie
20-Mar-2015, 11:17
I have embarked on a very long project of using aluminum for a support for multiple register.

Right now I have found a supplier for 25 thousand gage aluminum , but frankly its a bit thick to punch and register.. it works but I think thinner gage would be much better.

I am thinking 16thou or 20thou... Can any one help me in locating a vender who one would like to sell large sheets cut to various sizes and also someone close to Ontario Canada.

Mark Sawyer
20-Mar-2015, 11:20
Wet platers generally order .020 aluminum through Main Trophy in Chicago. It comes in 12x24 or 24x48 inch sheets.

Richard Wasserman
20-Mar-2015, 11:24
What about aluminum shim stock? Mcmaster Carr has it, but I would think you should be able to buy it locally. Starts at .001 and goes up from there.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#shim-stock/=we6ykw

Drew Wiley
20-Mar-2015, 12:28
Yeah, shim stock. But you could also contact Ternes-Burton (kinda the Midwest equivalent to Olec-Stoesser). They make custom bars for punches based on shim
stock registration, and must know a source relatively close. They're friendly and helpful.

Michael Rosenberg
20-Mar-2015, 12:37
Here are a couple:

http://www.micromark.com/

http://www.micro-tools.com/store/

Mike

bob carnie
20-Mar-2015, 12:58
Thank you all .. Yes shim stock.. never heard of this... I just got a couple of names here in Toronto that may be able to help me out..

Is it practical for me to cut it myself from oversize and if so how would I do it or what kind of tool would I need to do this . I am thinking .020 or better .016 if it works

I am currently making 11 x14 inch size,,, then moving up to 16 x20 and 20 x24 size, largest my Nu Ark can handle

but I want to be able to go up to 24 x36 within a year.. It would be very helpful to cut it myself. Am I crazy to think this is possible?

btw just in the middle of 30 tri colour over palladium and guess what... the f.. process is working and I am getting good registration.. I knew my years doing photocomp and hand registering
would come in handy.
This paticular project is 30 images - we have mounted Arches Platine to aluminum (thank you Irving Penn for leading the way) punched the aluminum.
Made a master positive with registration marks, and made palladium neg, yellow neg , magenta neg and cyan neg of all for a total of 150 sheets of pictorico
Then we hand registered each film to the positive and we are finished the palladium , yellow and now into magenta layers and its working.. thank my fu... lucky stars.

the .025 was just a bit thick , think I will screw up my punch over time.. thank you Sandy King.. I got a great deal from you..

mdarnton
20-Mar-2015, 14:59
Aluminum is very easy to cut because it's very soft as metals go. If you were using something thin enough, you could use a matte knife and straight edge, or guillotine-style paper cutter. They will dull and need resharpening sooner than with paper, of course but it's not too hard. It depends how thick it is. In thick sheets, which you won't be doing, you can use normal woodworking tools--band saw and hand plane, for instance. Get a couple of test sheets, and play.

Drew Wiley
20-Mar-2015, 15:39
No... not woodworking tools! (ragged edges). For thin shims even a Rototrim will work; otherwise a knife, preferably in some kind of linear mechanism. Thicker
material I'd sandwich between plywood and use my Festool track saw, or a real power sheet shear (almost sold one two hours ago until I told the dude the price.
Now he needs an ambulance).

IanG
20-Mar-2015, 15:49
Get the real stuff Bob, Aluminium, Canada is one of the largest manufacturers :D

I used to buy quite a few 8x4 ft sheet a year, these days I buy it to make Waterhouse stops. I used 2mm Aluminium sheet to make Pin register negative carriers in the 70's but used a drill not a punch.

Ian

Nathan Potter
20-Mar-2015, 16:00
Bob, a machinists shear is a clean way to go for cutting. Long term you can buy these used for cheap. They come in various lengths from 24 in. to 8 ft. and work like a bending brake, but cut rather than bend. Talk to a machinist. The surface of aluminum is very fragile - but you may have already found that out. I protect the surface with paper and just cut the paper at the same time.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

Colin Graham
20-Mar-2015, 17:31
A lot of shim stock comes tightly wound in a roll, an it can be difficult to get the spring out if you don't have a way to decoil it. The thinner stuff can crease pretty easily while trying to get the memory out of it.

Which punch do you have? I have a Ternes like the one pictured, and it works well on .025" (22 gauge) plate aluminum. They are self-centering too, which is nice. They can be had pretty cheap these days.


http://bestgraphics.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/944_01.jpg

winterclock
20-Mar-2015, 19:44
Take a look at aluminum flashing at a builder's supply, it's thin, comes on various sized rolls that flatten easily and can be cut with scissors or a box knife. The widest I have on hand is 12" but I seem to remember seeing it in wider rolls.

bob carnie
21-Mar-2015, 05:42
this was what I am thinking my largest print will be 30 x40 I will look into this option . The aluminum I am currently getting is protected one side with a removable laminate.


Bob, a machinists shear is a clean way to go for cutting. Long term you can buy these used for cheap. They come in various lengths from 24 in. to 8 ft. and work like a bending brake, but cut rather than bend. Talk to a machinist. The surface of aluminum is very fragile - but you may have already found that out. I protect the surface with paper and just cut the paper at the same time.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

bob carnie
21-Mar-2015, 05:45
Colin - I have a strosser punch system .. it does work on the 22 gauge , but it does (FEEL) as if it really has to work to punch through the material.
mine is self centering... what pins are you using?

I even found that the metal thickness with paper on top and film and ruby is stressing the rubber platen on the NuArc.

A lot of shim stock comes tightly wound in a roll, an it can be difficult to get the spring out if you don't have a way to decoil it. The thinner stuff can crease pretty easily while trying to get the memory out of it.

Which punch do you have? I have a Ternes like the one pictured, and it works well on .025" (22 gauge) plate aluminum. They are self-centering too, which is nice. They can be had pretty cheap these days.


http://bestgraphics.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/944_01.jpg

Colin Graham
21-Mar-2015, 06:46
Colin - I have a strosser punch system .. it does work on the 22 gauge , but it does (FEEL) as if it really has to work to punch through the material.
mine is self centering... what pins are you using?

I even found that the metal thickness with paper on top and film and ruby is stressing the rubber platen on the NuArc.

That's a great point- I have a pretty roomy vacuum table but even so it is pretty cramped with the whole assembly. I really like the extra rigidity of the 22 gauge backer though for all the handling steps but you are right- this might amount to abuse on the punch over time. I punched only a half-dozen plates for different sizes of print, then would detach the the aluminum at then end of printing for reuse.

I have a Ternes-Burton pin bar. The punch pins are just what came with the punch. Ternes has a .120" height available, which is nice for thick assemblies, but not sure if that would fit in a Nuarc vacuum table. They will make custom registration bars if you send them a pattern sample of your punch. http://www.ternesburton.com/pin-bars/

mdarnton
21-Mar-2015, 08:06
No... not woodworking tools! (ragged edges).
You have obviously not seen some of the fancy production jigs I've made. Perhaps I should have said wood working tools PLUS SKILL.

Colin Graham
21-Mar-2015, 08:18
I'm lucky to have access to a Baileigh metal brake where I work. It has a 6' shear, and it also has a slip roll as well- which is great for taking the curl out of coiled stock.

Some lumberyards offer custom flashing profiles, they would probably cut plates to size for a small charge.

Bob- not sure if these folks ship to Canada, but their price for .02" 24 gauge 5052 is pretty decent if you can't find a supplier close by. http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=17922&step=4&showunits=inches&id=240&top_cat=60

Jim Andrada
21-Mar-2015, 22:05
Online Metals has pretty much everything and they'll custom cut for a reasonable charge.

davehyams
28-Mar-2015, 03:26
I use .019 aluminum sheeting that it get from Home Depot here in the states for all my 3 color gum, cmy gum over platinum and gum & cyanotype over palladium. I register visually without any issues, larger prints are easier to register actually. I cut the aluminum down with a pair of heavy tin snips and usually use drylam colortac for mounting, as I find it a little easier to work with than fusion 4000, but there are several options out there. Fun stuff, glad to hear you're making it work Bob, a handmade cmyk print is a thing of beauty that few have the skill and patience to produce well. Sure yours are stunning.

bob carnie
28-Mar-2015, 05:39
Good to hear from you Dave. I never thought of trying Home Depot I will do this . The project I have just finished is a bit of a departure... I phone capture as the source 30 prints in total, so a total of 150 pictorico hits.
Including the mounting to alum(I used cold mount for this as well) punching, hand registering and then printing a long process.( I will post soon some pics) This show is a Feature Show in the Contact Photo Festival here in Toronto.
I am sure I will get a lot of negative press because anyone could make a more REALISTIC inkjet don't you know.

But really , really rewarding in sense of accomplisment... I am so happy that the registration worked perfectly which in multiple hit printing is critical IMO .. I am playing with channels and conversions so these series of prints are not full reproduction colour like lets say a Todd Gangler or Keith Taylor , but rather a cross between a Fresson and Dye Transfer... For my work I am thinking Dye Transfer is the closest process match in the sense of how I visualize the whole process. I think they look more like Fressons, at this point due to the Arche platine being hit four times and soaked four times.. For sure this is not a gloss look and I doubt it will in the forseable future.
I have figured out how to do this over a silver print as my base , much like the palladium base.. (fancy mounting in safelight and good testing before laying the silver down.. not sure how gum will work over a silver print so
that will be something I am interested in trying.

An artist from Alberta who exhibits Art 300 prints with pigment over top with hand application is really interested in the palladium base and I think there is a little niche market for this.

What I am seeing with this is a whole new world of visual possibilities from hard core reality colour right down to surrealistic prints.. I know a lot of workers are interested in this, but by putting on a major show and standing by it with its warts and all is a big step for me here.

So Dave- have you figured out how to make digital negs on a Canon- I would be interested in your thoughts... I am going to be firing up the Lambda for the sole purpose of making silver negatives - I feel the pictorico
is too fragile and does not have the powerful blocking power I want down the road.. specifically when one wants to include other processes like lith prints and silver prints.
I agree registration is key, I use a positive as the master on the lightbox and register the four printing negatives to it.. makes my life really easy.

Stunning is in the eye of the beholder Dave...Some just don't get it and have expectations that are different from us.

Btw I am using all channels , and different pigments for different channels, as well channel blending... Sam Wang in the 80's or 90's was making channel blends and printing colours in register with fantastic results, and after
visiting him a few years back was greatly influenced by his work.



I use .019 aluminum sheeting that it get from Home Depot here in the states for all my 3 color gum, cmy gum over platinum and gum & cyanotype over palladium. I register visually without any issues, larger prints are easier to register actually. I cut the aluminum down with a pair of heavy tin snips and usually use drylam colortac for mounting, as I find it a little easier to work with than fusion 4000, but there are several options out there. Fun stuff, glad to hear you're making it work Bob, a handmade cmyk print is a thing of beauty that few have the skill and patience to produce well. Sure yours are stunning.

davehyams
28-Mar-2015, 10:53
love me some Fresson prints, those things are great. They seem to give color a texture that is completely unique, hard to put into words. I feel that its a whole different level of mastery when you are using the process to create your artistic vision, not necessarily reproduce reality. Anytime you're working with gum or similar process, the only limits are the ones you place on yourself. Alvin Langdon Coburn, Steichen, Kasebier and Demachy (as well as many others) made such diverse and incredible work within the medium. Sam Wang's work is special, he was one of the first contemporary artists that got me interested in Gum. Its always an uphill battle with anything handmade, and I feel that people are quick to try to dismiss it by saying, "Thats alternative process" and then feeling like they have engaged with the work. Had to deal with that at SPE, and had a couple of spirited conversations about how my work was not "Alternative Process" and how there was no such thing as alternative process in the art world. As for digi negs on Canon, I don't have any experience as I don't have access to the hardware. I believe that there is a rip that will allow you to control your ink in a qtr like manner, but not having the hardware I never really looked into it. Canon definitely has some features that are attractive, and there are a couple of things about the epson 7890 that I have that drive me a little nuts, but it does the job for me. I have yet to find a process where I need more density in my negatives than I can put down, even high relief carbon prints and printing out processes like salt, zia or albumen. Can't wait to take a look at those prints, please let us know if they are put online anytime soon, and one more reason to visit you sometime in Toronto.

Drew Wiley
30-Mar-2015, 11:14
Ternes and Stoesser are pretty much equal quality, and plenty of both can be found on the used market under prepress equip (not photographic supplies). I can't
quite picture using hardware store sheet metal. Seems like a nice way to slice your fingers on ragged edges. Isn't the great industrial spy of Fresson, Nadeau, still
there in central Canada?

bob carnie
30-Mar-2015, 12:06
He may be but he certainly has not surfaced in many , many years. I think Mr Nadeau was able to figure out the process , but I personally have never seen one he has made, I have seen Sheila Metzner's(sp) prints made by Fresson Lab in France and they are very nice.



Ternes and Stoesser are pretty much equal quality, and plenty of both can be found on the used market under prepress equip (not photographic supplies). I can't
quite picture using hardware store sheet metal. Seems like a nice way to slice your fingers on ragged edges. Isn't the great industrial spy of Fresson, Nadeau, still
there in central Canada?

Drew Wiley
30-Mar-2015, 12:27
They cut a deal with him. He could make all the Fresson prints he wanted for personal use; but they'd sue him if he divulged the exact secret. But there are so many ways of doing things nowadays I don't think many people would want to go to all the trouble of using a carbon arc enlarger and sawdust slurry anyway.
Their pigment set was primitive: the usual chromium oxide green, alizaron crimson red. So the process color palette is pretty weird, but Sheila certainly mastered it, idiosyncrasies and all. But these were 35mm originals to further accentuate the grainy feel. And another thing so odd about color Fresson is their horizontal/vertical screen.

bob carnie
30-Mar-2015, 12:48
Funny , that they thought to keep this process a secret.. personally I don't get it.

Drew Wiley
30-Mar-2015, 13:51
The secrecy probably involves the sensitizer or its specific manner of use. The rest you can plainly see described on their own website, and over the years numerous people have seen the machinery in person. Remember, there have been only a limited number of "direct carbon" processes ever invented, as opposed to carbon and carbro layered transfer techniques. And for decades Fresson achieved a very different look from the relatively bland gum and Kwik-print techniques, as commonly employed. Of course, they also had a monochrome version. But the mere fact of a semi-harsh abrasive agent (sawdust scrubbing) needed to reveal the colored relief mean that the sensitizer had to be unusually strong. What amazes me is how gold buttons on Fresson look like metallic gold, not like yellow (as even in dye transfer printing). The relatively coarse pigments kinda hug the surface of the print. But one could hypothetically choose a completely different set of process colors, including a much more accurate and lightfast set. They stuck with their own traditional look. I'm glad I got to see quite
a number of color Fressons once.

bob carnie
31-Mar-2015, 06:28
I hope to leave behind if I can still walk and not require depends, thirty years of production of prints using gum over various media...

Steve Sherman and I are planning a workshop over New Years where the complete
process will be laid out from PS - paper mt to aluminum-to separation negs- register- and final printing- we are also going to show presentation.

It is IMO very important to put this type of information out there so younger'ish workers can learn these processes.... It is a complete tragedy when one person/s feel they have cornered the market and
pretty much keep it to themselves.
I was really trying to go down the tri carbon route and the only persons really open to discuss this with me were Sandy King and Sam Wang.. One fellow wanted me to invest $100000 to produce tissue through Harman(basically I got off the phone and thought- boy what an ass.)
Luckily for me I have met people like Christina Anderson and Ron Reeder who both are super open about the process . with their help and some of the old photocomp work I did in the 80's I feel pretty confident with this process.

Since my very first days of colour printing-1975 I have printed colour each week and have really felt shitty about the colour permanence thing- there fore Silver Shack my first silver lab- I tried Cibachrome - basically those
prints faded in light and I doubt there is a single good quality RA4 print over 30 years old that I produced.
Now with this incredible Digital workflow the hardest part... scanners, separations.. are a piece of cake and mixing them with silkscreen, dye transfer, carbon, gum printing methods/tricks the reality of permanence is at our fingertips. I wish I was 30 again but looking at it the years put into learning different methods, earning a living and staying open for business has strengthened the whole circle of learning.

I will probably start a thread here in a month or two where I start laying out the making of these prints.. I prefer to use my own work as the samples.. lucky for me Rita Leitsner has agreed to be my first real
tester where we will hang the show and have a lot of critical eyes looking at the work. I expect a lot of varied opinions from ( these prints are absolute crap) to this (these prints are amazing)

bob carnie
5-Jun-2015, 15:38
found a good source of 20gage and it works real well in the plate burner.