Shenhao 8X10 FCL-810 AC or Wilderness V 8x10 ? [Archive]

gliderbee

6-Mar-2015, 08:43

I'm going to buy a new 8x10 camera, and I want it to be light (I had a Toyo 810M: fantastic camera, but too heavy for me, so it stayed home because of that ..).

Which one would you choose ?

The Shen-Hao looks nicer and is a bit lighter, but being from wood, more fragile, I guess.
The Wilderness has more bellows draw (I should check my longest lens, but IIRC it's 650mm)
It's probably easier to get spare parts (e.g. bellows) for the Shen-Hao (?)
The Shen-Hao has both Tilt and Center Tilt at the front, the Wilderness "only" Center Tilt (but should I care about that) ?

Anything else that I should consider in my choice ?

Thanks for your ideas,

Stefan.

andy

6-Mar-2015, 09:03

I know this isn't one of your two, but
I have a chamonix 8x10, the first version, and I can't recommend it highly enough. I've taken it everywhere, it's amazingly light (just checked, the new version clocks in at just over 9lb) it has great bellows draw, and every movement I've ever wanted.

that said, if I were choosing between the Shen-hao and the wilderness then I think I'd go for the shen-hao, but maybe just because it's prettier? :)

vinny

6-Mar-2015, 09:04

I prefer center tilt because I can't stand re-focusing after tilt is applied.
Anything else that I should consider in my choice ?
Chamonix.

Alan Gales

6-Mar-2015, 09:13

I own a Wehman but they are out of production. You might also look at a Ritter and a Chamonix. They are both lightweight too.

Advertise where you live and maybe someone owns one of these cameras in your area. It would be nice to get your hands on them before you buy. Cameras are such a personal choice. I would look for light and sturdy with plenty of bellows draw for the longest lens I own or plan on owning.

Ari

6-Mar-2015, 09:15

Can you get parts and support for either the ShenHao or Wilderness where you are?
Or is it going to be a better of dealing with China for everything in case repair or parts are needed?
The Wilderness looks interesting, like a bulkier Chamonix clone, but I'd weigh the parts and service option before making a decision.

angusparker

6-Mar-2015, 09:16

+1 for a Ritter or Chamonix.

Regular Rod

7-Mar-2015, 03:56

I use the Shen Hao and find it light yet rigid when erected. I'm not sure what "parts" you may need in normal use, I suppose you could break the ground glass whilst it was in your bag if you don't put something over it to protect it. I get round that with a stiff board inside a cushioned postal envelope and carry it in a Photobackpacker P3. Short of dropping the camera I wouldn't expect to need parts. I did buy a couple of different reducing backs but they came quickly even though coming from China. In my experience the company is very responsive to direct enquiries and purchases. If you do use it with the whole plate reducing back be aware that you need the slimmer Toyo/Rittreck style film holders, or the ones supplied by Shen Hao, as the Kodak type are too wide to fit in.

It's a fine quality camera, beautifully made with excellent components and at a very competitive price. Good value for money I'd say.

richard

Old-N-Feeble

7-Mar-2015, 07:24

I've been looking too though it'll be awhile before I have the funds to buy one.

My preference is the Chamonix but I'm seriously considering the Svedovsky due to cost. The last I checked their shipping fee to Texas was $80. LINK (http://svedovsky.com/cameras/8x10-camera/)

csxcnj

7-Mar-2015, 08:48

Well there are photos of Clyde Butcher using. Shen Hao 8x10 in the Florida swamps. If SH is good enough for him tats a pretty good recommendation.

Bob Mann

7-Mar-2015, 09:02

vinny

7-Mar-2015, 12:00

I wonder if the Wilderness design would have problems being sturdy when locked due to the lack of triangular bracing of the front and rest standards. Also, it seems to have a minimal amount of material for the base. Light weight is OK, but I would prefer a solid camera ( even if it was a pound or two heavier ) over one that vibrates.

That camera is the only one I think I've ever seen which doesn't have rear support braces. That'd be my #1 reason for not buying it.

evan clarke

7-Mar-2015, 12:19

Chamonix.. (I have 2 Arca 8x10s)

jb7

7-Mar-2015, 12:37

That camera is the only one I think I've ever seen which doesn't have rear support braces. That'd be my #1 reason for not buying it.

With the possible exception of Arca Swiss, Sinar or Cambo, to name but three that popped into my head-

Is it just for aesthetic reasons you wouldn't consider it, because it seems to be a design feature on wooden folders only, and the design seems to have arisen from the use of pressed and folded metal parts.

It seems to me that the tolerances of the bearing surfaces and the stiffness of the components would be far more important than the number of pinned joints.

vinny

7-Mar-2015, 13:13

With the possible exception of Arca Swiss, Sinar or Cambo, to name but three that popped into my head-

Is it just for aesthetic reasons you wouldn't consider it, because it seems to be a design feature on wooden folders only, and the design seems to have arisen from the use of pressed and folded metal parts.

It seems to me that the tolerances of the bearing surfaces and the stiffness of the components would be far more important than the number of pinned joints.

I believe we're speaking of field cameras here. It's the only 8x10 field camera I've seen like this. I think the others (including the one I built) have them in order to keep the back in place when locked down.

jb7

7-Mar-2015, 13:24

I think there is more than one way to accomplish something- although doing something differently, especially in the rather conservative world of large format photography, will always be a risk. It amazes me, for example, that all the Phillips copies never once addressed the issue of having to assemble the camera in the field.

I've seen your camera, it looks very well built-

Alan Gales

7-Mar-2015, 14:38

Yeah, Vinny, your camera does look well built. You need to make us all one! :cool:

Kevin J. Kolosky

9-Mar-2015, 12:08

Well there are photos of Clyde Butcher using. Shen Hao 8x10 in the Florida swamps. If SH is good enough for him tats a pretty good recommendation.

I thought he swore by Deardorf.

Ari

9-Mar-2015, 12:17

Bob Mann

9-Mar-2015, 12:19

With the possible exception of Arca Swiss, Sinar or Cambo, to name but three that popped into my head-

Is it just for aesthetic reasons you wouldn't consider it, because it seems to be a design feature on wooden folders only, and the design seems to have arisen from the use of pressed and folded metal parts.

It seems to me that the tolerances of the bearing surfaces and the stiffness of the components would be far more important than the number of pinned joints.

A studio camera vs a field camera would not need to consider the effect of wind, I have to believe a triangle design would be more rigid than a single contact surface - but, then I am not an engineer.

ScottishMan

9-Mar-2015, 12:40

I thought he swore by Deardorf.

I think he had a Shen-Hao here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xarIyRnrAl8

jb7

9-Mar-2015, 13:38

A studio camera vs a field camera would not need to consider the effect of wind, I have to believe a triangle design would be more rigid than a single contact surface - but, then I am not an engineer.

Me neither, my degree is in architecture.

Both the Arca and the Sinar are quite happy out in the field, and wind is not an issue with them, or at least, wind will be the same issue as with any other camera of similar size.

I see you're just across the sound from me, nice pictures on your website-
If you're open to converting you're welcome to come and try out a couple of my cameras...

Belief is a powerful thing, and forum guidelines prohibit me from evangelising any further...

csxcnj

9-Mar-2015, 15:32

I think he had a Shen-Hao here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xarIyRnrAl8

Also seen with a Shen Hao in those Kickstarter videos.

Lachlan 717

9-Mar-2015, 16:02

And the 12x20 is a Wisner Traditional.

gliderbee

10-Mar-2015, 06:10

Thanks all for your helpful replies.

I deciced to go with the Shen-Hao, since I have two Shen-Hao's already (PTB-45 and the HZX-something 5x7) and I have received excellent customer support from them directly from China with the PTB-45, although I bought it used ...
The Chamonix was the best contender, but it was about 25% more expensive; maybe it is worth it, I don't know, but I trust the Shen-Hao will do the job :-).

I also received a great offer to buy a Chamonix 8x10 in great condition for an excellent price, but just 30 minutes after I payed for the Shen-Hao ! I hope the Shen will make me forget that offer :-).

Stefan.

Regular Rod

10-Mar-2015, 06:47

It will. They are lovely things to use. Well done on your choice.

RR

Bob Mann

10-Mar-2015, 07:32

......
I see you're just across the sound from me, nice pictures on your website-
If you're open to converting you're welcome to come and try out a couple of my cameras...
.....

Thanks for the offer and compliment, as for the camera design choice perhaps sticking with a known major brand is wiser - Wilderness seems to be Chinese maker without many users posting their experiences.

Sal Santamaura

10-Mar-2015, 10:30

Well there are photos of Clyde Butcher using. Shen Hao 8x10...

I think he had a Shen-Hao here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xarIyRnrAl8That looks like a non-folding Shen-Hao TFC810A:

http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/product&path=2_22_98&product_id=3146.

It appears Clyde found Ansel's Winter Sunrise appealing, but decided to get up a little later, go vertical and use the moon rather than a horse to set things off. I wonder whether the Lone Pine High School whitewashed letters are still on those foreground hills and, if so, how Clyde "spotted" them out, i.e. with dye on his negative or in Photoshop. :)

Sal Santamaura

10-Mar-2015, 12:36

...It amazes me...that all the Phillips copies never once addressed the issue of having to assemble the camera in the field...What issue? Do you mean having to lock the rear standard in an upright position and screw the front standard into the bed? The other typical field camera front standard approach is triangle struts there too. Any design that works without these types of "assembly" in the field is called non-folding. There are plenty of those, including the Shen-Hao TFC810A I linked to in post #27.

jb7

10-Mar-2015, 13:43

What issue? Do you mean having to lock the rear standard in an upright position and screw the front standard into the bed? The other typical field camera front standard approach is triangle struts there too. Any design that works without these types of "assembly" in the field is called non-folding. There are plenty of those, including the Shen-Hao TFC810A I linked to in post #27.

Assembly means screwing together two unconnected components.

Rotating a standard into position does not constitute assembly.

There are any number of folding field cameras that do not require assembly.

Michael_qrt

10-Mar-2015, 14:15

Assembly means screwing together two unconnected components.

Rotating a standard into position does not constitute assembly.

There are any number of folding field cameras that do not require assembly.

OK, but in this case the assembly work is hardly more onerous than rotating the front standard into position and the design is light and compact with good rigidity due to it's simplicity.

jb7

10-Mar-2015, 14:21

Yes Michael, I take your point-

I appreciate your valid arguments...

swmcl

10-Mar-2015, 14:30

Personally, I'm a fan of the HZX series like the HZX810-Classic. Versatility is important to me.

Being an owner of three Shen Hao cameras I will admit there is nothing about them that is ready to rock-and-roll. I've spent a long time sorting out light leaks or reflections, alignment issues and adapting cameras to fit other accessories (like a Toyo compendium).

They are however an entry point into LF so I am thankful for that.

gliderbee

11-Mar-2015, 07:19

I also considered the HZX810 (I have a HZX57-IIA and I love it), but it has quite a bit more weight, and apart from rear rise and more bellow extension at the long end (both of which I don't think I need), I don't see much versatility advantage (but it IS a beautiful camera, but aren't they all :)).

As I wrote, the Toyo stayed home because of the weight (it's only disadvantage, and sometimes it's an advantage), so I focused on a light camera that I would actually take with me. The one I used most at this moment is the PTB-45, because of the size and weight, and I easily take it with me in a small rucksack (Lowepro 300) with all the necessary small things). It will not be THAT easy with the 8x10, but I can try :).

Stefan.

cfd

12-Mar-2015, 13:12

Just in case it hasn't been said... There's also a new Wilderness! the VI :)

John Kasaian

12-Mar-2015, 13:35

Save $$---keep your Tachi and join a gym!

Drew Wiley

12-Mar-2015, 15:52

Sell the gym. Then you can afford an Ebony.

gliderbee

23-Mar-2015, 11:16

The Shen-Hao arrived ! It's a BEAUTY ! It's often said that's it's that Shen-Hao is a nice entry point in LF, but I don't see anything second-rate on this and I certainly prefer it over the Toyo.

The only "lesser" things I found out are:
1) the way to have the back tilt backwards: there are two small screws on each side to be loosened to eliminate the stop and tilt it backwards; I wonder what will happen if I forget to fix these again (will they fall out sooner or later), and I will have to bring the right tool for it each time.
2) there's only a bubble level for one direction. I bring one with me every time, but still, it would be helpful. Maybe I'll fix a second one myself.

Since it weights much less then the Toyo, it will surely see more of the outside world. I'm happy. Since I also have a 5x7 with a 4x5 reduction back, I'll make a 8x10 back for these two, so I can use all three formats with this camera :-).

Stefan.

Regular Rod

23-Mar-2015, 16:11

....1) the way to have the back tilt backwards: there are two small screws on each side to be loosened to eliminate the stop and tilt it backwards; I wonder what will happen if I forget to fix these again (will they fall out sooner or later), and I will have to bring the right tool for it each time....

The screws don't need loosening. They should be tight as originally. The little bolts slide back against the nylon friction washers under the screw heads. You slide them forward for the stays to hold the back at 90 degrees to the base and back to allow you to tilt the back backwards. If you loosened the screws you need to retighten them.

The spirit level arrangements are not ideal so I carry a tiny level originally sold for setting up turntables on traditional hi-fi kit and lay it on the top of the camera back when setting up.

RR

salario

11-May-2015, 18:24

Stefan!
Is your friends Chamonix still available? very interested if so. :)

Thanks all for your helpful replies.

I deciced to go with the Shen-Hao, since I have two Shen-Hao's already (PTB-45 and the HZX-something 5x7) and I have received excellent customer support from them directly from China with the PTB-45, although I bought it used ...
The Chamonix was the best contender, but it was about 25% more expensive; maybe it is worth it, I don't know, but I trust the Shen-Hao will do the job :-).

I also received a great offer to buy a Chamonix 8x10 in great condition for an excellent price, but just 30 minutes after I payed for the Shen-Hao ! I hope the Shen will make me forget that offer :-).

Stefan.

ic-racer

11-May-2015, 20:19

There are any number of folding field cameras that do not require assembly.

8x10 cameras that fold with the lens in place? Or putting the lens on is not 'assembly?' Attaching to the tripod is assembly or not? How about screwing in the cable release? Attaching the dark cloth? Putting film in the camera?

that all the Phillips copies never once addressed the issue of having to assemble the camera in the field.
BTW the 'Phillips Style' Shen-Hao that is the topic of this thread folds without detaching the front standard.

gliderbee

12-May-2015, 10:26

Stefan!
Is your friends Chamonix still available? very interested if so. :)

It was somebody on this forum who presented it to me by pm, but I don't have that message anymore. Maybe he'll notice when you try a WTB message ?

Good luck !

Stefan