Biginners questions on developing, what do I really need

[michael g]

Hi

So I read a lot of the threads here, youtube, forums etc, but there are some I still haven't found out or at least people answer differently to, and I don't really know why or what the consequenses are.

I'm starting out on developing medium format film, and i found that Kodak, Ilford, Patterson etc would like me to buy a lot of stuff and I'm not really shure if I need it all
Because of regulations and price on shipping it needs to be in powder form.

Developer: Kodak d-76 is the only I found in powder form. I read some reuse it, just adding a bit of time. Is it a bad idea? Developing negatives is a one shot deal, so if they turn out bad, it's hard to fix

Stop bath: I'll go with just washing. Some say you can use White vinagre

Fixer: Kodak fixer

Here is where I come in doubt if I really need all that

Clearing agent?
As I understand it saves washing time, but if you buy a hose, patterson etc you can also cut Down on the washing time to about the same

Wetting agent
Some use dish washer soap, neutral type with no parfume. Is it a bad idea?

Destilled Water.
Is it better than wetting agent?

Squeegie: Having a Tool wipe the surface of my film, sounds like the perfect way to some day ruin negatives. I'll just use my fingers

Hanging clips I'll use the ones for hanging clothes to dry one or two in each end

Again there is the problem with shipping fluids, so that's why I'm looking for alternatives, without ruining my negatives

Is a Holga a bad idea?
Will it be hard for me to see if its bad processing or the "Holga effect"

M

[welly]

This is actually a forum for large format not medium format but your questions are still mostly relevant to large format.



Developer: Kodak d-76 is the only I found in powder form. I read some reuse it, just adding a bit of time. Is it a bad idea? Developing negatives is a one shot deal, so if they turn out bad, it's hard to fix


What you proposed is a bad idea. You mix up the powder with 4 litres of water, as per the instructions, and then store it in an ideally non-clear bottle. D76 is a one-shot developer - ie. you use it once and then throw it away. Luckily it's cheap enough that you can afford to do that.



Stop bath: I'll go with just washing. Some say you can use White vinagre


I personally just use water as a stop bath for negatives. I'm no expert but I understand it's better to use a proper stop bath when you're printing. But negatives, you'll be good with water - I'm sure some people on here will tell you otherwise and some people will agree with me.



Clearing agent?
As I understand it saves washing time, but if you buy a hose, patterson etc you can also cut Down on the washing time to about the same


Never use it myself and I don't know anyone who does but I'm sure some of the older guys on here do.



Wetting agent
Some use dish washer soap, neutral type with no parfume. Is it a bad idea?


Wetting agent is cheap as chips and lasts forever. A bottle of photoflo is about $5 and you only need a drip of it. I've used dish washing soap - bubbles everywhere for ages. I'd keep looking, you must be able to source some of this locally.



Destilled Water.
Is it better than wetting agent?


Can't help you here. I understand some people use wetting agent in distilled water but that sounds a bit too particular for me. But then my processes are a bit rough around the edges.



Is a Holga a bad idea?
Will it be hard for me to see if its bad processing or the "Holga effect"


It's a camera! A camera is never a bad idea. Not sure you'll get too much advice about such things (Holgas) here though.

[koraks]

For a stop bath, I just use plain tap water. I've also used diluted vinegar. I noted no differences in fixer lifetime, but I don't keep detailed records on it.

As a wash agent, I just use a few drops of dishwasher shine. Works well enough. With roll film, I usually squeegee or dry the backside of the film with a bit of paper towel. Works well enough for me and any lint from the paper towels can be removed once the film is dry. Squeegeeing tends to leave nasty scratches so I wouldn't recommend that.

[michael g]

I'd just say that I DO want to get into LF, but MF is sort of crawling before you walk step for me, to get the basics right before it all gets large and complicated - and expencive

[Aerial]

Used to use 99% isopropyl alcohol instead of a wetting agent, it displaces all the water in the film and dries immediately. Stop bath just halts the development process faster, water is fine.

[ShannonG]

your on the right track,just go for it,,take notes and learn.film squeegees are nice but for now you can use your fingers. No stop bath needed,use just watter,,a clearing agent is good but really not needed for now.You dont have to spend a lot of $$ on developing for now,just buy a lot of film and learn,,,have fun....

[michael g]

So you pretty much agree on:
developer -> do what it says on the box (I thought so)
stop bath -> Water
Fixer -> as it says on the box
Clearing agent -> no
Squeegee Tool -> no

So it's Down to wetting agent. Where I live it has to be shipped from abroad, its expensive and not a lot of stores ship fluids. I think I'll start with a drop of soap, if it doesn't Work out I'll somehow get some real wetting agent.

Do you just use tab Water or distilled Water?

I think being new there are too many variables for me to start with mixing my own developer, so I'll start out with Kodak d76, but it seems like it is just as easy with d-23, I'll have to try that one time.
But I have also seen people do amazing stuff with alternative processing of images. It has been really inspireing
But for now I'll start with film and I cant wait to get started

[John Kasaian]

Tap or distilled? It depends on the quality of water coming out of your tap. I have hard (lots of minerals & crud) water, so I use distilled water for mixing chemicals.
Since you're developing medium format, you'll probably want a Patterson tank and reel & a pair of scissors(for taking off the backing paper) handy.

[Jeff Dexheimer]

Fixer - use Ken Lee's recommendation.

I use two bath "art fix" from formulary. It's the same idea. No hypo, so no need for hypo clear.

[Jmarmck]

1. Freestylephoto will ship liquid HC-110. It is easier to use as a one shot developer....for me anyway.
2. I only use stop bath when I am on the road in a motel room to cut down on water use.
3. Fixer as recommended
4. I do not use hypoclear unless I am on the road, again, a water use thing. Normally I rinse with running water for about an hour.
5. Wetting agent. I will use photoflo or simply dip in distilled water.
6. I do not touch the film with anything until dry.

I use a string and clothespins or if roll film I will use binder clips and some weight at the bottom (washers still in the plastic bag attached to film with binder clips)

[Lenny Eiger]

Developer: Pyrocat HD in Glycol from Photographer's Formulary
Stop: Tap water
Fix: TF4 Fixer from Photographer's Formulary
Clearing Agent: not needed
Wetting Agent: I like this, leave it in for 3 minutes! Forma Flow from Photographers Formulary
Squeegee: Don't do this to you film!!!
Clips: Stationery store, Bulldog Clips #0 or #1. The weighted ones they sell in photo stores are good for the bottom for med format.

Holga: This is not a technical choice but an aesthetic one. Up against a Mamiya 7 II it's a plastic piece of garbage; but if that's what makes your heart go pitter patter then there's nothing 'wrong' with it. People do all sorts of things to "distress" away from a perfect representation, from pinhole cameras, paper negatives, to all sorts of alt process, and more.

Lenny

[Moopheus]

Developer: Pyrocat HD in Glycol from Photographer's Formulary


You would seriously recommend pyrocat to someone who's never even loaded film into a tank before?

[CropDusterMan]

There is no issue mailing liquid. I shipped PMK Pyro stock solution to Maui and back. Photographers Formulary, who I highly
recommend, ship powders and liquids. Liquid stock solution form is easier for beginners I think. I was wondering if I should bother mentioning
PMK as a good developer, because it does require a strong attention to handling safety, but ultimately, they all do.

You will receive many developer/fix opinions on here, one of the great things about photography is the many ways you can skin
a cat. Some developers are going to require special handling and special agitation techniques, and as I'm unsure of your skill
level...? I love PMK Pyro. You can get it for $30 from Photographers Formulary-this amount lasts a long time. Buy the liquid kit. It's an easy mix, and you only mix
the working solution for each batch of film you develop. For ex...a Jobo 1500 series tank will hold 1 roll 120/220 film and it requires
5ml Part A, 10ML Part B and just under 500ml water. The stock solution lasts forever. There is no need for stop bath-use water.
Use Photographers Formulary TF4 fix, which you buy in a stock solution and mix to 1 gallon...it has a long life and can do multiple rolls
of film. I use Distilled water for all steps (dev working solution, water stop + fix mix) except rinsing, then use distilled water and photoflo
and hang to dry.
Pyro is a staining developer and has a beautiful effect on finished negatives...you can do your own research on it. One thing, PMK Pyro involves a lot of agitation-see instructions. Someone is bound to come on here and tell you how dangerous Pyro is...all chemicals are dangerous if you don't follow the label directions. Follow them, wear gloves and glasses and you just mitigated the risk.

A great iPhone app exists too from "Massive Development Chart" which allows you to build film/developer profiles, and has a special audible timer which even tells you when to agitate, stop, fix rinse etc. No need for wash-aids...a good rinse in water for 20 minutes maximizes image stain...(it's a good thing).

Practice your film loading so you have it down! Christopher Crawford has a channel on youtube which tells you how to develop film in PMK Pyro, all kinds of tips on safety and agitation.

Best of luck.

[Moopheus]

Fine, but D-76 is cheap, easy to get, easy to use, and dependable. A perfectly good thing to use to learn the process on your first rolls. There will be no real advantage to doing something more complicated.

[michael g]

My level is that I took classes on developing film some 20 years ago when I was in elementary school. So my level is pretty much nothing.

I defenetly plan on experimenting with more exotic ways of developing, but I'll start with the "for dummies"-version, and begin experimenting from there.
I also have to try out different types of film, so if there are too many variables, then I will not know what I did right or wrong from time to time.

As for Holgas, I've seen that 80-100 year old foldables are about as cheap some times, and new chinese vs old german. I'll probably end up with one of each sooner or later.

[jp]

D76 is cheap and good, as is pyrocat hd. When I used d76, I'd mix up the gallon, then dilute it 1:1 which makes getting the right temp easy, as the resulting temperature is an average of the temp of the water and the d76 stock. I use cough syrup containers to measure the pyrocat concentrate.
Water stop bath
Tf4/Tf5 fixer and no hypo clear is needed. Cheaper and faster than Kodak's fixer.
I soak the film for 30 minutes changing water a few times to rinse it.
Final rinse in distilled water and hang it up to dry. No fingers touch film after it's loaded for processing till it's dry. One little bit of oil from your fingers will run down a sheet of film, or whole roll of 120 if it gets on there when you hang it up to dry. Then you have to rewash. Alcohol is great for speeding up the drying too if you're in a hurry.

I like holgas but they are not as versatile as LF cameras for softness if that's your thing.

[Jmarmck]

I gotta ask, why such a cheap camera? You can get something like a RB67 for fairly cheap. It would leave you with some options for adding lens and viewfinders in the future. There are plenty available for a decent price.

[michael g]

If you want a really carefully considered answer, then I'll have to disappoint you. I have spend a lot of time thinning about just Mamiya RB67, Crown Graphic, Sinar, Hasselblad, mamiya 645, different brands of TLR's, antique foldables and a ton of others, I've almost pressed the "buy" button, and there comes a time where you just have to take a leap and do it, and then take it from there.
Staying with Holga is defenetly not the plan or the reason I want to develop film. But I thought it would be a way to start out and see where it would take me.

[CropDusterMan]

Hi Michael,

Ultimately, we all search for the best quality in our images...a Holga, although it has it's little niche deal going
on, quality is not going to be a part of the equation. But...it's cheap, fun to play with and it'll get you into
shooting and processing film again! Practice your technique, and look into that digital truth app.

[ShannonG]

the key words here is "the Holga look" for gods sake man..take a chance and just start developing......

[John Kasaian]

I had a Holga. It came apart at the base of the Grizzly Giant in Mariposa Grove and the film unrolled off the spool as it bounced down the trail (the cheap clips that the neck strap fits on also keeps the back on the camera.) It may still be in the garbage can where I left it.
I don't say that to discourage you, only that I see these as temporary cameras (sometimes very temporary!) If LF is where you want to end up, I'd recommend one of those paint can pinholes Freestyle sells. That way you can start off developing sheet film (or paper) and contact printing from the get go, maybe for less than a Holga.

[michael g]

There are old medium format plate cameras, 6x9 and some 10x15 cm.
I have thought about voigtlander bessa etc folding cameras from the 1930s, some are as low as 40 USD, CLA'd, but I don't know about image quality. Maybe it would be better than a Holga. Vintage look vs bad quality look :p
I think they are in constroction and function somewhat similar to LF cameras, but cheaper - and not LF - so maybe to start out

For now it's important for me to press a shutter and play with some Chemicals, and find out what Works for me.

Paint bucket, would be a fun DIY project, there are lots of possibilities to play with in photography

[ic-racer]

I'd not use water for stop bath, unless you are doing something where exact development time is not required.

[angusparker]

Pyrocat-HD is cheap and lasts but is in liquid form. It is a great for LF and quite possibly the developer you will eventually gravitate to. It does not react well to some fix chemicals as it loses its stain. FT4 works well and is cheap. I would recommend that. However, to get the most mileage out of MF B&W film you might want to use the Kodak developer Xtol which is a powder. Mix 5L in one go and store in airtight containers for six months. I use wine bottles with a vacuum pump stopper. Xtol is non-toxic and gives fine grain results which is key for MF but no so much for LF given the larger size of the negatives. Otherwise I'd recommend dental X-ray clips on a clothes line for drying film. One on each end of the film roll.

[Lenny Eiger]

You would seriously recommend pyrocat to someone who's never even loaded film into a tank before?

Why not, its just a developer. One liquid vs another...

I have some images I shot while I was a student, back 1000 years. It would have been nice if they were shot with at least med format instead of 35mm. Then I could have kept that one I got lucky with... instead of not having that image..

I'm a big believer in using good materials for learning. Better materials teach you how to see quicker...

And FWIW, when you hit film with water, at a specified amount of time, it is just as accurate as hitting it with stop bath. Stop bath is unnecessary.

Lenny

[Jac@stafford.net]

There are old medium format plate cameras, 6x9 and some 10x15 cm.
I have thought about voigtlander bessa etc folding cameras from the 1930s, some are as low as 40 USD, CLA'd, but I don't know about image quality. [...]

The variety of image looks is our pallet, a look to suit almost anyone from lenses that go back 150 years.

Among other formats, I use old Super Ikontas 6x4.5 and 6x9 and love the look of the image. This is from a Super Ikonta 6x9 (http://www.digoliardi.net/drake03.jpg) shot at its focus sweet spot.

Speaking of the Holga - what you get is a crap shoot. I got one that was unacceptably sharp at four-feet. I tell ya, Holga must get their anti-QC under control.

[StoneNYC]

Made this list for beginners...

You can change developers/stop/fixers but basically that gets you started at mostly the cheapest prices...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/wl/771A833B26

[StoneNYC]

Made this list for beginners...

You can change developers/stop/fixers but basically that gets you started at mostly the cheapest prices...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/wl/771A833B26

Just looked, developer is back ordered, a good second liquid that's more money but will last for 10 years after opened is kodak HC-110 and has more data available on basically all films. I would recommend Adox Rodinal/Adonal but it won't ship I'm many places.

[michael g]

Vintage cameras they're so cheap it would be a sin not to buy one and try it out. I love vintage stuff.
And maybe a mamiya RB67, for when it's all about sharpness

But I haven't yet received any of the stuff I ordered for developing, so one step a a time.

[michael g]

Thank you very much for all your answers.

As for the different types of chemistry, is it only the developer that effects the image? or does the fixer etc also give it a certain look depending on the type of fixer you use?

[StoneNYC]

Thank you very much for all your answers.

As for the different types of chemistry, is it only the developer that effects the image? or does the fixer etc also give it a certain look depending on the type of fixer you use?

Just developer.

There are various stop and fixes, but only something like "Arista" or Foma brand do you have to worry about the stop affecting the film (has to do with how acidic the stop is) but really just the developer for all practical purposes.

[Jeff Dexheimer]

Thank you very much for all your answers.

As for the different types of chemistry, is it only the developer that effects the image? or does the fixer etc also give it a certain look depending on the type of fixer you use?

Developer is your starting point. Stop Bath, fix hypoclear (If you use it) and photoflo or other wash aid have no effect on the image.

Once development is complete you can tone your negative in something like selenium. This will change the density of your negating and give you a different look and a more stable negative to boot. There are other toners beside selenium, but selenium is likely the most common toner.

[DrTang]

I use Heico Perma Wash

cuts down on water usage and wash times