Negative masks for Durst Grahalon and how to use it

[foen]

Hi, I've a durst 139 with cls 300 color head.

With this enlarger , that I use it for 4x5 and 5x7 negative, there is the grahalon negative holder . It isn't a regular negative holder with masks.

How can I use this? It is more difficult then my Durst m805 negative holder.

could anyone help me? :)

Thank you and sorry for my bad english :(


E

[Drew Wiley]

This is meant to project serial separation negatives or masks in register for specialized processes like dye transfer printing. For it's intended application you would need to have a matching registration punch and pin-registered contact printing frame to generate the separations and masks to begin with, which would have to be
specially machined nowadays, since the matching original accessories are probably long gone. By itself you would just have to use it like an ordinary carrier, if it
even still has the matching glass.

[foen]

I want only print in the traditional way, without the registration pin. What I need for this way ? I've only this kind of neg carrier. Should I need to purchase two glass and after make a "sandwich" with the negative? How I put in the center of the glass? Thank you

[Drew Wiley]

It will be difficult to find official Durst glass for this; but there are other sources. I don't know where you are, but here in the US, Focal Point can provide custom
cut carrier glass at a reasonable price. In terms of fitting smaller film sizes, you can just use thin cutout masks which surround your intended negative size. I like
to use mylar sheet for this - actually old voided Cibachrome paper - cut to overall size on a print trimmer, then with the negative window carefully cut out with a
razor blade or X-Acto knife. It's quite easy to do if you have a steady hand.

[Luis-F-S]

It may help if you post a photo of the masks & carrier. It may be worthwhile to look for a Nega 138 carrier, depending on what masks you have.

Luis

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah... It would be easier and probably cheaper just to locate a decent NEGA138 carrier. These can be all over the map in asking price, but every now and then
a really nice one turns up quite affordably. It's easy enough to make insert masks for these too.

[foen]

Hi, thank you for reply,
I have something like this but called 138 :

130186

without glasses.
Probably I can provide with a local artisan but I don't know the right sizes and thickness. So I don't know how to use it with 5x7 and 4x5 negatives :(

[Drew Wiley]

If you don't need pin registration, you just use it normally, with your negative placed in the center, with glass on both sides.

[foen]

Where I can find the right sizes?

[Luis-F-S]

The Grahalon I thought was for 8x10 negatives. Your enlarger, the G139 is a 5x7 enlarger, so something does not seem right. If it's the Grane 138 carrier that you have, it's for pin registered negs, not to be used for the Ladane masks. You can certainly put your 5x7 & 4x5 negatives between the glass, but if you want to use glassless masks, I think you'll need a Nega 138 unless you have a metal holder fabricated to replace the glass & hold the masks. I'll post what I did to a Nega MC for this purpose when I get home. L

[foen]

Yes Luis my neg carrier it was called "grane 138" . I don't have negative pin registred. I only need to use this carrier in The easiest way possible

[Drew Wiley]

There are all kinds of ways of adapting these things to fit up to the maximum 5x7 negative size. One doesn't need metal reducing masks to print smaller sizes as long as glass is in place. Only pin-registered work requires something fancy. But a Nega138 carrier would be more convenient than the 2-piece system. It's just
had to find them in good shape with all their tabs intact. But you never know. I recently bagged an almost new Nega138 for only $35.

[foen]

I have only a fear for the masks instead the glasses: the dust! :|

[Drew Wiley]

These kinds of carriers were made specifically for use with glass. The whole notion of registration without glass would of course be nonsensical. Even a high quality carrier like a NEGA138 seems senseless without glass on both sides, though it can be done. One has to work clean regardless. But there are even simpler carriers
out there if you wish to go "glassless", which can be had for almost free. I realize the Durst system can be a bit confusing at first. I make or alter the accessories
myself, as many do, so there have never been any formidable problems adapting this gear. Anyone with basic shop equipment can do it. Or any machine shop can
do it well.

[Ginette]

You have a very good carrier, no need to search for the Nega 138.
But the Grane / Grahalon (or Grahal) glass size are not the same as the Nega 138.
Nega 138 glasses are called GLAS and GLAS AN
Grane/Grahal 138 carrier glasses are called GRAGLAS 138.
The bottom part of the carrier (Grahal or Grahalon) is fixed, you need to clamp it carefully.
Only the Grane part will move. You push into the Grahal frame. For release it, you turn the knob in front.
On the Grane/Grahal the red corner are for securing the glasses so you need to have the right size glass to do that.
You have different format inserts for theses 2 systems but they are not interchangeable. Nega 138 are named LAPFE and the Grane/Grahal are the MIGRAFI. In the 2 cases, the inserts replace the glasses.

I have this carrier but no glass into. I cannot help on the specific size but you can ask to Focal Point if they have the Graglas 138 glasses.
https://secure31.webhostinghub.com/~fpoint5/store/agora.cgi I don't see them actually in the Durst glasses listed.
Only the glasses for the Nega 138 are listed 42$ for the AN and 28$ for the regular. Theses glasses are 2mm, the Graglas 138 are probably also 2mm.
Maybe another user will help on the exact size and thinkness of the Graglas 138 but if not you can estimate the right size by measuring your carrier, just take in account the red corner need to clamp the glasses.

Note to Luis: Durst produce this carrier for the Durst 184 and the 138.

[Drew Wiley]

Real Durst glass will be very difficult to find for this carrier, and has always been fairly expensive. Focal point can easily make it, and has a decent version of anti-Newton glass in correct thickness. The 138 system was for up to 5x7 negatives, the 184 for up to 10x10, conspicuously different in size.

[Luis-F-S]

Here are some photos of how I modified my Nega MC carrier to take the Lapfe inserts. This carrier was initially made for enlarging negatives on microfilm cards on the SM-183. It uses the same outer frame as the Nega 138 but does not have the "fingers" that hold the glass or Lapfe inserts. I had a hole slightly larger than 4x5 cut in both the top and bottom metal plates, and had some pins placed to center the insert. The registration carrier you have is great, but is not easily set up for the glassless inserts. It is meant to be used with glass, and hopefully as Ginette said, you have both pieces.

130194 130195

[foen]

Ok, thank you folks.
You told me to use the glasses, so I have to look an artisan that he could make a pair of glasses with the right sizes that could be fitted in the carrier, isn't?
Than on the bottom the glass should be fixed and clean right? How can I clean the glass without leaving lint or dust? And another question: how can I hold the negative in the center of the glass?

So I hope you apologize me 'cause this is the beginning of my adventure with the large format photography

Thank you

[foen]

130212


My original neg carrier

[Jac@stafford.net]

The photo you posted is from glennview.com

Glenn has more equipment than he posts, so you might consider writing to him glenn@glennview.com to see if he can help.
.

[Drew Wiley]

What you show in the correct picture is not the full carrier, but just the registration insert tray. Do you have what that slides into?

[foen]

Yes Drew, I've the second part of the carrier hold down in my enlarger right?

[Luis-F-S]

Check with Focal Point for the glass. He's going to be cheaper than anyone else and probably already has the dimensions. Anti Newton glass (or plain) on top, plain glass on the bottom. L

http://www.fpointinc.com/

[foen]

Ok Luis tank you. So I send a email to focal point.
So how about the best practices to keep clean and dust free the glass?

[Drew Wiley]

Carrier glass will be a bit thin and fragile, so you need to handle and clean it carefully. What I do is to remove the glass and use a bit of glass cleaner or dish soap and a soft nylon pad similar to what you clean teflon pans with. Then I fully rinse this off under running water, then blow all the water off using a compressed air line. Then I let each piece air dry a big more before actually placing any negative in there. This is done under an inspection light, so I can see any bits of dust on anything, beside an electronic air cleaner, pulling the air away from the work piece. A low-pressure, fully-filtered air line is beside this, with a blowgun for removing any bits of whatever. The room itself needs be frequently sponged down to keep all work surfaces clean; and for fussy projects I wear a true clean room smock, which resembles a lab coat but is made of 100% dacron long fiber, so produces zero lint. Some darkroom workers laugh at this degree of fuss; but when they have such a hard time controlling dust, it's my turn to laugh back!

[Luis-F-S]

Ok Luis tank you. So I send a email to focal point.
So how about the best practices to keep clean and dust free the glass?

On the focal point website.

[Ginette]

Thanks foen to posted your carrier, if we look carefully the other one, it was in fact a Grane 205, the 8x10 version!
I saw that yours have four screws, can someone who had this carrier tell us if theses screws help to retain the glasses or if it is only the moving corner at top who secures the glasses.
Also if you have this carrier, let us know the exact glasses sizes and if it is 2 or 3mm.
I don't see thoses glasses on the Focal Point website, only the Nega 138 glasses are listed. Probably need to be custom cut.

[foen]

Hi all, so the exact sizes are 14.5 mm x 18.1 mm x 2mm of thickness. I'm waiting for.

Thank you all for the right advices about glasses, my only fear is the dust.