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View Full Version : Applying a Sinar Copal Shutter on Taylor Hobson Cooke 325mm and Chamonix whole plate



muratsariyar
27-Feb-2015, 14:28
Hello everyone, I have been reading this forum as a guest for some time (since I bought my Chamonix whole plate camera and 12" Taylor Hobson Cooke f/4.5 portrait lens series ii).

I have been making ambrotypes with this setup but now I need to shoot on film as I want to learn the process of exposure and development relationships.

I need to have a consistent shutter speed as you may guess as I will be working with Ilford Fp4 (125 iso) 6.5x8.5 inch film.

Things I can do is buying a Sinar Copal Shutter or a Packard Shutter or buy a new lens Something like a Schneider.

What I am after is buying a Sinar Copal Shutter but not sure if I will be able to or some wood worker can apply it to my camera (or I even don't know if it will fit my lens's diameter). (I am pretty new to large format cameras)

My lens is already on a Sinar lens board

Any help or knowledge will be appreciated. Will see if the things I'm planning in my head is applicable.

Respects and love for all.

www.muratsariyar.com

Steven Tribe
27-Feb-2015, 15:21
I am sure your don't want to "adapt" your Chamonix to a take a "behind the front standard" Sinar/copal.

If you are going to use the 12" TTH series II as a sole portrait lens (highly recommended!) a front mounted curtain shutter is the easiest to mount and use.

I enclose an example with speeds up to 1/90th. Don't be put off by the controls, they are really very simple. There is a single screw to mount on the lens barrel. The example I show will fit on barrel sizes from 3.5" tp 4".

They are quite cheap and there are people here who can repair if necessary.

Peter De Smidt
27-Feb-2015, 15:26
Steven, can those do flash sync?

muratsariyar
27-Feb-2015, 15:38
Thanks for your interest in this,

I was going to ask the same thing as I only make photographs in the studio with strobes. Don't think these can trigger flashes.

So is it now I'm left with only Packard shutters? (will be needing more NDs)

Or, can you recommend a reasonable priced lens which will cover whole plate and which has a shutter?
As far as I have calculated the diagonal of the whole plate I at least need a 270mm lens, is it true?

Steven Tribe
27-Feb-2015, 15:51
You can mount the sinar/copal on the lens board and the lens in front of this. There is a thread on one side of the opening for mounting an adaptor to a extra lens board - or directly to the thread for the flange. Expensive one-off machining! There are people who done flash with Speed graphics (focal plane shutters) - but I have no zero knowledge or experience of the system. A mechanical contact could be made. I have a Grundner shutter (1900!) which had a very good sync. system.

DrTang
27-Feb-2015, 16:10
here is what I did

first..get a sinar shutter

second - get a sinar front standard

take the standard apart so that there is only the square part left

make or have an adapter made that goes:

your lensboard - spacer - sinar lensboard


then.. mount that adapter on your camera..mount the Sinar shutter to the front of that..then the standard to the frint of the shutter

and finally.. mount your lens on a sinar board to the front orf the standard


it's heavy..it's ugly..but it works



and

DrTang
27-Feb-2015, 16:13
or... mount the lens w/o a shutter on your camera


place a black bowler hat over the lens

pull the dark slide


then take hat off lens and fire flash (using the flash meter)

then quickly repolace hat

now close the darkslide



I did just that last weekend..works fine

muratsariyar
27-Feb-2015, 16:22
:)
DrTang, doing the same while making ambrotypes but this has to be precise as the iso will be 125..

By the way instead of paying 500 dollars and messing around with the loved lens and camera, guess i will buy a somewhat modern lens for a little more..

But thank you all for getting interested in this and welcoming me.

DrTang
27-Feb-2015, 16:35
the second idea (hat) would cost you the price of a gnatty hat

and with strobes.. shutter speed does not matter..just keep the studio moderately dark and the ambient light won't even enter into it

Tin Can
27-Feb-2015, 16:43
I do the same thing but without a hat. I bathe the studio in red LED, shoot X-Ray which sees no red and don't use any shutter or hat and hand pop the flash.

But I prefocus with white light...

Peter De Smidt
27-Feb-2015, 17:08
Great idea, Randy!

William Whitaker
27-Feb-2015, 18:06
Take a look at this thread (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?95707-An-Old-Master-with-a-New-Trick) to see the amount of work it took to adapt a Sinar shutter to an 8x10. The project was successful, but it was very expensive and a lot of trouble and waiting for parts to be made. Also a bit nerve wracking as there was no guarantee that it would work in the end except for my own eternal optimism. But in the end it did work. Take that for what it's worth.

Having been down that road, my advice now would be if you want to use a Sinar shutter, get a Sinar camera... or a Shen Hao XPO45. If you're going to use whole plate, then I think it would be easier to have a reducing back made for an 8x10 than to adapt the Sinar shutter to your present camera.
My 2¢. YMMV.

Peter De Smidt
27-Feb-2015, 20:57
Sinar F "multipurpose" standards are super cheap. I've got at least two of them around somewhere. I'd use one to make an adapter board if I ever get one of the Sinar shutters.

muratsariyar
28-Feb-2015, 01:14
Thanks everyone, its a great pleasure being in this forum. The replies were very quick and very helpful.

Will Whitaker - thats a damn good job. would love to be able to make that kinda nice finish if i had the skills.

Which lens with a shutter would you recommend for my whole plate - something close to the Cooke I own?
It can be a near-modern one and I am sure you have lots of other brands in your head.
I need to get 1/125th of a second so I guess I need to check the lenses with Copal and Compur shutters.
The money I am planning to spend on this is about 500 euros.

Respects and love everyone

Robert Oliver
28-Feb-2015, 01:46
Why do you need 1/125th if you are shooting with strobes in the studio?

I shoot with strobes and a packard shutter with no issues... I used to front mount a packard to my cooke portait

Steven Tribe
28-Feb-2015, 01:57
Not all portrait subjects (other than family) would be relaxed in dim red lighting. But otherwise it is super solution.

muratsariyar
28-Feb-2015, 02:15
Thanks again,

The thing is this: I will be attending the exam of a masters degree of photography and I have never explored the relationship between the exposure and development times. Kinda trying to learn this so I am only guessing that I need to work with a "industrialised" lens. If you think the opposite please tell me.
I of course want to use my Cooke. Do you think it will be a proper way working with the Cooke and Ilford Fp4, making development and exposure tests?
Can I get to a point that at the end, in the exam, I can have a self confidence while talking about these tests.
Accept my ignorance about all these, please help me understand.

I can work with the modelling lights off for sure and with a red dim light in the studio.
I guess I either need to find out the duration of the flashes or I need to buy a Packard Shutter as you say and work with NDs as my strobes fire 37,5 watts at the lowest power with two heads sticked into one generator. (I have measured yesterday that with the light shapers and everything sat 200ISO at f/22 I am getting 1/125th of a second at 37,5 watts power)

Please enlighten

Respects and love for all

muratsariyar
28-Feb-2015, 02:20
I know its again my ignorance.
I know what you mean right now. Shutter won't affect the exposure even if it is at 1/500. Flah duration is the important part in here.

Please enlighten

Roger Hesketh
28-Feb-2015, 03:16
I have a front mounted curtain shutter which is fitted with a standard flash PC socket. So it is possible. Can be used with other lenses and cameras. I agree with Steven it is the easiest option. Ian Grant is the man to speak to perhaps he could fit a flash socket to one for you. I know he repairs them.

IanG
28-Feb-2015, 04:47
I'll have a think about how to add a flash sync to TP & similar shutters. It would be possible the problem is how to do it neatly and unobtrusively.

As I use stainless steel strips in the new shutter curtains I make could leave them exposed on the top edge of the underside of the curtain and then add two contacts so that when the shutter is full open the flash circuit is closed. It needs some thought, I've one or two shutters I could experiment with, I've a box full to restore :D I can buy scrap SLR cameras for £1 each and they usually have two flash sockets.

Ian

Roger Hesketh
28-Feb-2015, 05:21
Ian if it is any help I could post you mine so you can see how they did it.

muratsariyar
28-Feb-2015, 05:23
I'll have a think about how to add a flash sync to TP & similar shutters. It would be possible the problem is how to do it neatly and unobtrusively.

As I use stainless steel strips in the new shutter curtains I make could leave them exposed on the top edge of the underside of the curtain and then add two contacts so that when the shutter is full open the flash circuit is closed. It needs some thought, I've one or two shutters I could experiment with, I've a box full to restore :D I can buy scrap SLR cameras for £1 each and they usually have two flash sockets.

Ian


Hello Ian, its a coincidence, I just sent you a private message before seeing you post to this thread.

I dont understand the technical things you mentioned but I need it. What can be the speeds of the shutter? About how much will this cost and everything?

Respects

IanG
28-Feb-2015, 06:36
Ian if it is any help I could post you mine so you can see how they did it.

That would be very helpful Roger. We can talk about it sometime.

Ian

muratsariyar
28-Feb-2015, 06:44
hello Ian, its nice knowing you.
i have contacted Reno from packard shutter and will see what he will say.
130026
the back opening is about 8.4 cms

do you know the prices of the packards?
which will fit into my setup and with a flash sync?

respects

muratsariyar
28-Feb-2015, 06:46
whoops, this was supposed to be a private message to Ian, anyways, now everyone knows my secrets :)

IanG
28-Feb-2015, 07:25
There's some lateral thinking needed, the lens in question has a 3½" flange, there are Thornton Pickard roller blind shutters that would accept it but they aren't very common and are hard to find - I use one with my Petzval front mounted and sold one 3 years ago for someone to to use with a Darlot. I'm guessing a front mounted shutter for Murat's lens needs to fit closer to 4". They were made up to 5" and most would probably be still with the original lenses.

A large Packard shutter (http://www.packardshutter.com/) with flash sync is one option but they aren't cheap, it would need front mounting.

An inexpensive easy to make suggestion is a Guillotine shutter (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/guillotine-shutter/guillotine-shutter-construction.html) and use a switch or some other contact system in the path of the shutter blade, triggered when it first opens fully.

Hope that helps Murat and anyone else.

Ian

muratsariyar
28-Feb-2015, 07:49
one last question and this is it.

do you think that I should spend 490 dollars on a packard shutter or should I buy a Rodenstock Sironar N 360mm f6.8 for 500 Euros?

just want to get ideas.

respects

William Whitaker
28-Feb-2015, 07:57
Will Whitaker - thats a damn good job. would love to be able to make that kinda nice finish if i had the skills.

Which lens with a shutter would you recommend for my whole plate - something close to the Cooke I own?
It can be a near-modern one and I am sure you have lots of other brands in your head.

Thank you. But in all honesty, I cannot take credit for the work. I chose the platform (Kodak Master) and did the design based on what the Master gave me to work with. I provided the specifications and requirements to the folks at S.K. Grimes who did the machine work. Custom Bellows did the bellows according to my specification. So I can't take credit for the work or the "finish". It was my design, my engineering (and my money!)

As regards lenses, the Cooke you mentioned in the OP is a fine lens and I would try to stick with that, if you can.


Why do you need 1/125th if you are shooting with strobes in the studio?

I shoot with strobes and a packard shutter with no issues... I used to front mount a packard to my cooke portait

If you can get by with a Packard shutter, consider having one front-mounted by Reinhold Schable (http://www.re-inventedphotoequip.com/Shutters.html). A couple of years ago I had Reinhold front-mount a large Packard for me to fit a 16-18" Graf Anastigmat. He did a superb job; his work is first rate.

IanG
28-Feb-2015, 09:29
one last question and this is it.

do you think that I should spend 490 dollars on a packard shutter or should I buy a Rodenstock Sironar N 360mm f6.8 for 500 Euros?

just want to get ideas.

respects

It depends what you want to do with the lens, I don't think I'd spend $500 on a Packard shutter. Look at the Fujinon W f6.3 360mm it's 60% usually about of the price of that Sironar.

Ian