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carynorton
23-Feb-2015, 13:31
I've recently acquired a Packard Shutter for one of my older lenses and, as it is my first Packard, I've got a couple of questions.

First, it doesn't appear to be a newer model with the instant option. I purchased a bulb and tube from the same person (ebay) but all the bulb does is open the shutter. The bulb seems like a modern style bulb taking blood pressure or something because, by design, it sucks air back through a hole at the bottom upon releasing the squeeze. If I cover the hole with a finger and work the bulb hard enough, I can the shutter to close again, but that's after a few seconds. Otherwise the shutter opens and stays open.

Am I missing something or do I just need a different bulb with proper suction? Is there a reasonable way to mod the shutter to have some sort of spring action? I'd thought about adding a contact sync anyway.

Incidentally, this will probably (in theory) be used for wet plate and will be used with 1908 Zeiss Tessar 400mm brass barrel lens. 99% sure I'll have to front-mount the shutter, at least unless I build a camera that can accommodate the flange size of the lens. Currently mounted on a DIY, quasi top hat board on a Calumet C1.

I've attached a photo of the lens and the piston. The shutter opening is 3.5".

I did find this thread (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?61739-Some-modification-of-packard-shutter) on adding a spring, but I'd love to find a way to mod it that is non-destructive.

Thanks!

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Jac@stafford.net
23-Feb-2015, 13:50
Show us the other side. The side you show is usually the back, towards the film, ground glass (unless, sometimes mounted to the front of the lens.)

Looking for a small hole top-left where a pin is put in to force it to close with one bulb squeeze. If there is none, I defer to others who have modified to add the pin.

EDIT: Great post here. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?9789-Installing-a-packard-shutter&p=71540&viewfull=1#post71540

carynorton
23-Feb-2015, 13:54
The back is covered in felt. I'll post the photo from the auction of the back, but I'll have to check for the hole when I get back to the shutter. That's a good start though! I'll update when I get home.

Thanks

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cowanw
23-Feb-2015, 14:07
With regards to your bulb action, are you plugging the hole when you squeeze the bulb; then when you unsqueeze the bulb the vacuum created pulls the plunger back.

carynorton
23-Feb-2015, 14:09
Yes, that's the only way I can get plunger to come back down other than manually pushing it back down with my finger. If I don't plug the hole, when I release the bulb it just sucks air in from the bottom. Even if I do get it to close again with just bulb vacuum, it takes quite a while (the aforementioned few seconds).

Tracy Storer
23-Feb-2015, 14:42
Buy bulb and hose from Packard Shutter Co. (http://www.packardshutter.com/) Your bulb may be too small, and /or, your shutter might be dirty inside, which will make things sluggish.

If you are handy, carefully open the case and clean the blades and piston. Everything should be clean and dry for proper function.

cowanw
23-Feb-2015, 15:38
Have a look here.
http://dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/articles/Packard_shutter.pdf
and here
http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/Article_About_Packard_Shutters.html

cleaning is easy, but perhaps digital photos at each step will help with the reassembly if you are not a good reverse engineer. Removing and checking the piston is a good idea, particularly if the previous owner has gooped it; wash it well and polish it. Q tip the chamber, maybe some solvent to clean, fit it dry. (although I did use a few strokes of a pencil once for lube on a unusually recalcitrant one.)
I expect if your bulb is big enough to open the shutter, it should close it if there are no air leaks; bigger bulbs are easier but don't squeeze more than needed to open the shutter, are you operating it so that gravity assists the falling of the plunger, not rusted inside, not squeezing the case to tight, no dried goop, no wet goop. There are a few common sense things.

carynorton
23-Feb-2015, 17:42
So I opened it up and I see no place for a pin (ie Latch Pin from the Doug Kerr link). I think there was a production date inside of 1927. The piston *seems* to move quite smoothly, but it will stay up (open) all day without pushing it down. The bulb opens the shutter with ease but makes no headway with closing it.

Looking into ordering from Packard directly. Hoping to return the bulb and tube that I've already got.

Jac@stafford.net
23-Feb-2015, 18:22
[...] Looking into ordering from Packard directly. Hoping to return the bulb and tube that I've already got.

Is it not just wonderful that Packard, which according to 'modern' tech mavens should be long obsolete, but is still alive and so useful?

Go for new if you can afford it and be happy forever.
.

cowanw
23-Feb-2015, 18:30
One last check, does the piston fall on its own if the bulb is not attached?

carynorton
23-Feb-2015, 18:31
Nope!

jnantz
23-Feb-2015, 19:03
the only packard shutters i have used were with the original packard hose and bulb.
the bulb has a hole at the end ( blood pressure bulbs do not ) and it took a hard squeeze
to open /close the shutter. if the squeeze was not a hard one, the shutter just opened
like it was in bulb mode ... interestingly the woolensak studio shutters have worked
the same way with a degroff air piston shutter release. a hard squeeze the shutter opened and closed
between 1/15 + 1/30S a slow squeeze it stayed open in bulb mode.

if your shutter isn't working correctly ( maybe there is something blocking the blades to make it stick )
maybe ask the good folks at packardshutter's website if they clean and refurbish old shutters ...

good luck with your new shutter !
john

carynorton
23-Feb-2015, 19:14
I will certainly try some graphite. Good call. Squeezing harder on this one just blows the tube off the piston. Ha.

A thorough cleaning and some graphite are in order.

Jac@stafford.net
23-Feb-2015, 19:30
I will certainly try some graphite. Good call. Squeezing harder on this one just blows the tube off the piston. Ha.

A thorough cleaning and some graphite are in order.

No, no, no! Graphite is like a nano-invasive which will get into all the small parts of the lens, and it is almost impossible to remove.
.

carynorton
23-Feb-2015, 19:31
So many pitfalls!

Randy Moe
23-Feb-2015, 19:50
Is the piston and cylinder undamaged? Perfectly round? Take the thing apart, they are dead simple.

Be careful, remove ALL screws. Gently pry up the top, don't get excited and drop the piston when you remove the top.

Take pictures of every step because you are new at this.

Do not operate without it screwed together. The tube end is down and they are designed to only be used in that position. Gravity does half the work.

When bench testing I gently clamp it upright, tube end down and test a lot. I use my shutter speed app. I have 6 of them..

I only started working on these a year ago. Now I take them all apart right away to clean and check out.

No oil, no grease, no powders, just clean and dry.

You may find notes from previous owners inside.

I find that fun and if I make it better I sign it also on the inside.

Jon Shiu
23-Feb-2015, 19:54
The Packard is balanced, so it only takes a gentle squeeze to open and it will stay that way until slight suction to close.

Jon

Randy Moe
23-Feb-2015, 20:33
By tube end down I mean the rubber tube.

carynorton
24-Feb-2015, 18:34
It seems my piston is not one that can be disassembled and cleaned up (again, unless I am missing something). See attached.

The lining paper is original (April 26 1927) and seems like maybe it's water-warped a bit, so that could be some drag and a reason it isn't closing with gravity assistance.

See attached for the piston. Would it help to see anything else? I'm wondering if the front and back pieces are slightly concave and pinching a bit.

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Randy Moe
24-Feb-2015, 18:54
It seems my piston is not one that can be disassembled and cleaned up (again, unless I am missing something). See attached.

The lining paper is original (April 26 1927) and seems like maybe it's water-warped a bit, so that could be some drag and a reason it isn't closing with gravity assistance.

See attached for the piston. Would it help to see anything else? I'm wondering if the front and back pieces are slightly concave and pinching a bit.

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The pin that is inserted into the piston is usually a loose but close fit and should allow the pin to stay attached to the aluminum bit inside allowing the entire top with piston to come off. Yours almost looks peened over to make it not remove, which is not normal. Inside paper could be removed and discarded or replaced. Many do not have or need paper lining. If the case halves are warped I would try to fix that.

1927 eh, my oldest says 1936 and a bunch of mid 40's notes.

More pictures! Can you get macro on that pin?

carynorton
24-Feb-2015, 19:22
Here's the best I can do with my phone. I don't want to pull the paper out, but I will probably try it out. It's moving a little better after taking it apart a couple of times. Gravity does seem to help a bit but the suction is still not quite enough to pull it. The opening squeeze is a very light touch, which I take to be a good thing.

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Randy Moe
24-Feb-2015, 19:31
Here's the best I can do with my phone. I don't want to pull the paper out, but I will probably try it out. It's moving a little better after taking it apart a couple of times. Gravity does seem to help a bit but the suction is still not quite enough to pull it. The opening squeeze is a very light touch, which I take to be a good thing.

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That is a good thing!

Careful use of a Dremel on that peened pin top could get that apart. I have done lot's of delicate dremel work and find the little cutoff wheel works best for this type of thing. Slow and steady.

The grit and dust that will be produced is a big problem.

I would clamp it down, cover the whole area like open heart surgery and have at it.

Because, until you get that pin out, you will not be able to fully disassemble the guts and fully clean under the leaves and remove all paper.

Jim Galli
24-Feb-2015, 19:36
Packard had 3 models all concurrently back in the day. A number 5 which did not have the instant feature, it just opens and closes. That's what yours is. The most common number 6 which had a pin mechanism that when pushed in would cause the shutter to cycle open and close all on one squeeze of the bulb at a repeatable 1/25th second, and a number 8 which actually used 2 pistons, 2 hoses, 2 bulbs. One was for time and one was instant. Some studios like the #8 I guess.

The bulb must have an opening at 2 ends. A blood pressure cuff bulb with a check valve will not work. Find a bulb with 2 openings. One goes on the hose. The other you alternately close with your finger or not, depending on what you're trying to do. As long as the second hole is plugged the bulb is forced to suck as much air back in as it blew out. That suction is plenty to close the blades on a good running packard. It actually sucks the piston back to the starting place slamming the blades shut. You should be able to get about 1/8th second doing that. Good luck.

jnantz
24-Feb-2015, 19:40
The Packard is balanced, so it only takes a gentle squeeze to open and it will stay that way until slight suction to close.

Jon


hi jon


maybe the one i was trained on was older, different &c ?
it was synch'ed for studio flash and it took a hard/ stiff squeeze
or the shutter would open /close or the flash would not flash.
it wasn't a soft /light squeeze but one that took practice ( and i used to arrive
early in the studio before it opened and practice ... often ).
a studio shutter though, depending on the pressure of the wind opening and closing
the shutter could be fast, slow, bulb/time a whole host of things ...

john

carynorton
24-Feb-2015, 19:49
It's definitely a #5. It's written on the paper inside. Attached are photos of the shutter opened up (to show, mostly, the back side of the piston area) and the bulb I have.

I wonder if I could remove that check valve (which I'm assuming it is) and get more suction? It doesn't seem to be very stiff rubber, for what that's worth. Like it doesn't seem like it'd have the muscle to pull it down, but I'm sure I could be wrong.

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Jim Galli
24-Feb-2015, 20:04
Yes, take a small screw driver and pop the check valve out of there. The paper is a bummer. If it were mine I'd strip all of the paper out, clean up the metal with steel wool until it's shiny, then protect the inside metal with a bit of good old paste wax. You'll be amazed how those blades will fly.


It's definitely a #5. It's written on the paper inside. Attached are photos of the shutter opened up (to show, mostly, the back side of the piston area) and the bulb I have.

I wonder if I could remove that check valve (which I'm assuming it is) and get more suction? It doesn't seem to be very stiff rubber, for what that's worth. Like it doesn't seem like it'd have the muscle to pull it down, but I'm sure I could be wrong.

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carynorton
25-Feb-2015, 07:35
I took the paper off the front side and also removed the valve from the bulb and now it moves pretty quickly! I've got more cleanup to do, but I'm in a place where I can actually use the shutter.

Thank you all so much for your help!

Cary

Jim Noel
25-Feb-2015, 08:30
You have a number 5 Packard which is not designed for instantaneous action. A number 6 will have the necessary pin, or at least a place for it.

carynorton
25-Feb-2015, 08:53
I've got the exposure time down to about 3/4 of a second at fastest (which is great). I'm curious if, looking at this angle, I should be able to see through the shutter. See attached. I realize very little light would/could make it back to the film, just curious.

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cowanw
25-Feb-2015, 11:35
I fear you may be right about the pin. Normally it is attached to a flat oblong piece attached to the shutter blades as in Bloom's picture.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?120404-Packard-shutter-8-with-dual-pistons-need-help-on-adjusting-and-clean-etc&p=1220887#post1220887
I must back out as I have none of your type to pontificate about.