The Widest Thing on Three Legs.....

[Annie M.]

What is it and where can I get it? I need the ultimate panorama outfit for a beach project this
summer... Is there some kind of 8x24 beastie with a big wide grin.......or should I be looking at
a home-brew pinhole to get the maximum angle of view? What is the widest ratio format/lens
combo available that will produce a neg size suitable for contact printing? Oh.. and just
wondering....... what is the max size sheet film available these days?

Thanks for your kind assistance....Annie

[David Richhart]

Annie... the ultimate panoramic camera would be the "cirkut" camera. I just did a google search and found this website with more information...

http://www.lapayne.com/lpcirkut.htm (http://www.lapayne.com/lpcirkut.htm)

Cirkut cameras can occasionally be found on ebay and seem to sell for around $4OOO for a decent one. Probably more camera than you are looking for, but I thought you might find the information interesting. -Dave

[David Richhart]

Just for the record, this website has more detailed info and a few pictures of the cirkut camera


http://www.bigshotz.co.nz/cirkut.html (http://www.bigshotz.co.nz/cirkut.html)

[Bruce Watson]

That, is cool. Where does one get film for a beastie such as this?

[Ted Harris]

Rhere is another answer too; the Seitz Roundshot. You can rent one of these from Badger. 360 degrees is as wide as it goes.

[Annie M.]

David that is one extraordinary camera..... it was indeed more than I was looking for, however,
it is now a must have item!!.........Just wondering..... anyone want to purchase one of my prints
for ...... oh.... let’s say $4000...... sheesh!!

[Gary Samson]

Film for panoramic/ultra large format/Cirkut cameras can be found at www.jandcphotography.com

[tim atherton]

http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=31

[tim atherton]

there is quite a difference between how a panning lens camera "sees" (or at least renders the scene) and how the standard panormaic camera does the same.

Take a look at Sudeks panoramics using (I think?) an old Kodak panning camera.

Geoffrey James used the same sort of Kodak/cirkut type camera for most of his earlier panoramic work I think (not sur ewhat model or film size).

He now uses the Noblex (see recent threads on here) and despite the 120mm size negative is quite taken I think by how incredibly sharp it is -commenting that it really feels more like working with LF film than MF when printing and doing somne very big (7'?) vertical enlargements of trees.

In a way the Noblex is the modern Cirkut...

[tim atherton]

of course there is this...:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15248&item=3864445431&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15248&item=3864445431&rd=1)

[tim atherton]

whoops thought it was
7 x17

[mark blackman]

Robert White stocks Noblex cameras - try http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/panoramic.htm#LabelNoblex (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/panoramic.htm#LabelNoblex)

[Annie M.]

Tim.....as soon as I saw Moore’s shot of Milford Sound at David’s link I knew that the way the
panorama ‘sees’ is precisely what I am looking for...I have become very interested in the way
the landscape resides in the subconscious mind versus the conscious looking mind... the Moore
shot is very close to those ‘flying’ dreams we all have from time to time.

If anyone ever happens to encounter an available Cirkut camera please let me know..... until
then I guess I can do sequencing with the 7x11..... is there some kind of formula for panning
sequences using the angle of view of the lens and the 360 scale on the tripod......or do you just
eyeball it?

Thank you all so much, I am absolutely blissed at finding out about the existence of these
cameras!!

Cheers ........Pannieorama

[Ted Harris]

Annie,

I want to echo the earlier comments on the Noblex. It is available in both a 6x12 and 6x17 format. I use the 6x12 extensively and the results are superb. There are many times when only the panoramic view of the Noblex will do what I need. Go to http://www.meetinghouseinn.com/ (http://www.meetinghouseinn.com/) and look at the picture across the top of the page. This was done with a Noblex 150 F (6x12). I tried with 4x5 first but there was just no way to capture the entire expanse. I had to shoot from inside a doorway, if I had gone back any further I would have gotten the walls of the other room in the shot. The Noblex 'sees' the same ~145 degree view that the hunan eye sees.

[tim atherton]

Annie

Noblex Canada importer is closer to you than me if you want to find out more...


http://www.whistlerinns.com/noblex/ (http://www.whistlerinns.com/noblex/)

i think they also commissioned some close up lenses and odments for them

[Leonard Robertson]

In your original question you indicated you wanted a negative for contact printing. I'm sure the modern Noblex, Roundshot, etc. negs can be scanned and enlarged negs made, but I have a feeling this isn't what you want to do. Reading your past posts, I get the idea you are a hands-in-the-developer type person. So you sound like a prime candidate to become a Cirkut photographer. The first big decision to make is if you want 8" high or 10" high prints. #8 Cirkuts tend to sell in the $1500 range, while #10s can go for twice that. Start searching eBay. Be careful of the #10 currently listed there. The description is nearly identical to a #10 that sold last week (search completed auctions). Maybe it is a legit seller who was too lazy to write a different description. I think some of the LF dealers like Lens & Repro and Quality Camera sometimes get Cirkuts. The one thing to avoid is buying a Cirkut that is missing the tripod gearhead. These get seperated from the rest of the Cirkut and are nearly impossible to find by themselves, unless you are really lucky. Missing lens or gears isn't so serious. Gears can be made and most view camera lenses can be fitted to a Cirkut (the exact nodal point of the lens must be found and gears made).

[Annie M.]

Bliss.......the Cirkut winds up like a clock and can do the full 360!!!

Although the Noblex looks to be a fine camera the negative is very small..... mind you I do have
friends up Whistler that I could mooch off.... oops!... I mean visit for a few days and do a test
run with the Noblex. Thanks for the link Tim.

Anyway.... I’m on the prowl for the Cirkut 8..... wish me luck!

hmmmmm.......wonder where one gets the contact printing frames

[tim atherton]

here's another small link


http://panoramic.net/www/cirkut.htm (http://panoramic.net/www/cirkut.htm)

I've followed a few on ebay.

some really bad looking ones ahve gone for high prices.

A couple of really nice looking ones with all the gears and fixings have gone for bargain prices... (just when I couldn't afford it....)

You might need to be patient

I really think one of the masters of this kind of photography was Sudek - his panoramics have a sort of cumulative beauty.

[tim atherton]

Photowarehouse also sells film for 8" and 10" I think

[tim atherton]

yes, that one for sale looks dodgy

same description with one of the same photos as the one that was sold in Australia on the 3rd...


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4701&item=3863559434&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4701&item=3863559434&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

but some nice detail pix in the original

[Leonard Robertson]

Tim is right about eBay Cirkut prices varying a quite a bit. I gave a price in my previous post of $1500ish for a #8, but I have seen them sell on eBay for under $1000. I have seen posts saying what Photowarehouse sells as Cirkut film is their normal sheet film in rolls and is too thick to work properly in a Cirkut. I'm not sure about this, but anyone buying it for Cirkut use might want to check with them on the thickness. The film on the J&C site looks like it should be fine. There is also the surplus 9 1/2" aerial film that is always for sale on eBay. 9 1/2" or 10" film can be cut down to fit a #8 Cirkut. One of the links Tim gave mentioned 8" Verichrome Pan being available from Kodak. I'm pretty sure this was discontinued in the last year or two. As I recall Sudek used a Kodak Panoram camera - a swing lens like a Widelux, not a full rotating camera like a Cirkut, the important thing is, he took beautiful pictures with it. He has always been one of my favorite photographers.

[Hans Berkhout]

Have a look at the site (table of contents) of Glenn Evans: http://www.glennview.com/ (http://www.glennview.com/)

[Clayton Tume]

Annie

Cirkut cameras are a whole new way of seeing and shooting, highly recommended if you can get past the initial setup stages. I'm talking here about not just shooting the camera but aquiring film, processing and printing, it's a total system. If you're a hands on person as Leonard suggests and you have the determination to succeed no matter what I think you can do it. Many have bought these cameras and never got past shooting a couple of rolls of film because of unresovled problems and high cost of film.

Remember you're shooting the equivalent of 4 to 8 sheets of 8x10 film in one exposure, mess up a few of them and you go broke pretty fast!

The cameras themselves are 70 - 90 years old and rely on mechanical components to do their thing. Have you ever driven an unrestored car of that age? It will have developed many quirks and probably not drive like a modern car. I've been told that even when Cirkuts were new they were difficult to use, age compounds that.

Ever wonder why the cameras are rare and photographers capable of using them even more scarce? There was once a time when virtually every small town across the US had a photographer with a Cirkut camera. Why? because they were money making machines. They were used for shooting large groups, schools, reunions, the military. It was common to photograph 300 people in one shot and sell everyone a photo at 3 bucks a print. The same applies today and Cirkuts are still used for this.

Because the camera could make so much money the photographers that owned them were reluctant to train anyone for fear of losing business. Generally the cameras and photographers retired together and it wasn't until the early 80's that a modern replacement in the form of the Alpa Rotocamera came along.

The Alpa was followeded by the Roundshot 65 and Hulcherama and it is indeed the Hulcherama that is the modern equivalent of the Cirkut having interchangeable lenses and gear film drive.

Of course the modern cameras use small format film, 120/220 and 70mm and can't be directly compared to a camera capable of making 6 foot long contact prints.

The camera Sudek used was a Kodak Panoram which is a swing lens camera much like a Noblex.

You could never call a Noblex a modern Cirkut because the concept is totally different. The Noblex is a wonderful camera but simply cannot do things a Cirkut does.

Current prices for Cirkuts are depressed but also variable. 3-4 years ago they were selling for double what they sell for now, 10 years ago they were selling for even more. The have/had such high value because a single large group photo could pay for the camera and the guys that used them had many backups.

When shopping for a Cirkut always assume it needs work, the fact the sellers say it rotates in a circle means nothing, the camera isn't under any load. When the same camera has film driving through it, often they will jerk and shudder and maybe not even run at all. Cirkuts should be serviced yearly which means a clean and lube of the drive mechanism and adjust the governor. Usually the camera requires rebushing of the mecahism shafts and they can also benefit from some modifications to help them run smoother.......remember these cameras are older than most of us.....I'd sure like to be out and about and working at their age.

I'm always happy to offer help and advice for anyone that wants it, the Cirkut camera turned 100 last year and I hope they're still shooting in 100 years time.

Clayton

[Annie M.]

Sure enough a Cirkut 8 appeared on eBay the next day and I have been hovering over the ‘bid
now’ button...but I’m choking..... 44pounds!! I’ll never be able to hike in to where I need to be
with that weight. So for my summer beach project it shall be the Noblex/kayak combo. I
assume someone out there offers a scanning/digitalneg service suitable for platinum.

Oh heck.... who am I kidding I know at some point I am going to end up owning a Cirkut as
well!!

Clayton, thanks for the very informative post.

Cheers, Annie

[Leonard Robertson]

I was just poking about on Clayton Tume's wonderful Bigshotz website and found a Cirkut FAQs page I hadn't seen before: http://www.bigshotz.co.nz/cirkut_faqs.html (http://www.bigshotz.co.nz/cirkut_faqs.html) I didn't see a link from his main Cirkut page over to the FAQs so I missed it. Clayton pretty much tells you everything you need to know about Cirkuts. The only way to learn more is get your hands on a Cirkut and start making mistakes. Several years ago I heard Ron Klein compare a Cirkut to a violin - some can learn to make music and some can't. So far, my Cirkut shooting has been an exercise in frustration, but I know I just need to put in lots more time at it. One thing I don't think has been mentioned is the #8 Cirkut Outfit can be used with 6 1/2" X 8 1/2" film holders. Not as big as Annie's 7X11, but still a decent size for contact printing. Finally, anyone who hasn't seen Clayton's page on ultra-LF should take a look: http://www.bigshotz.co.nz/other.html (http://www.bigshotz.co.nz/other.html)

[Clayton Tume]

Annie

as you've gathered Cirkuts are best used close to the car, any time I've backpacked mine I'ved spread it across 2 packs with a friend carrying the other. The modern cameras while lighter are still no lightweight. I use Roundshot cameras and they weigh about 20 pounds in their case, quite heavy for a medium format camera.

The Noblex is a good lightweight solution but remember it wont do what a Cirkut or Roundshot will do. That doesn't make it inferior just different.

Leonard

One day I'll recontruct my website, it's grown over a number of years and some things have to be dug out as there are no common links to get there. Maybe a summer project. I've put almost everything I could find on Cirkuts on the site in the hope others would find it useful and help them get started. Cirkut photography can be very challenging and frustrating at times but then very rewarding too when you see that 5 foot long negative hanging to dry.

There is another dimension to shooting Cirkuts, that of time and motion. Some interesting accidents happen that defy conventional photographic logic.

Have a look at this link http://bigshotz.co.nz/interesting.html

Ron Klein is right, many people will try but never get a Cirkut shooting properly just as many will never play music proficiently. But that does not mean you shouldn't try. I know Cirkut shooters throughtout the world and I'd guess at less than 50 worldwide using the cameras regularly. Quite a small group to hold the pool of knowledge for this unique form of photography.

Clayton

[Leonard Robertson]

Clayton

I hope it I didn't sound critical of your website. It is one of my favorite sites, especially the Projects page. I know it takes a huge amount of time to set up a website and keep it updated. Thanks for mentioning the Interesting page. I remember seeing this page long ago, but I'd forgotten about it. I'm surprised there hasn't been some "artsy" photographer who has utilized this unique Cirkut effect. I've seen the group shots with the same person showing up more than once in the picture, but I never thought of parts of the same person or objects moving near the center of the field of view.

I guess I'll be getting out a Cirkut and giving it a go. Too bad we just had several inches of snow in the last few days, but I can set up and dry run here in the house. I also have some outdated 9 1/2" film I can play with spooling and cutting to 8".

Thanks for all the effort you have put in on your website and your posts here.

Leonard

[Annie M.]

Clayton,
I’m also amazed that no one has done a show or a book utilizing the 'Cirkut Effect'.... that little
leg haunted me all night... and I have spent all morning trying to figure out how a sequence of
incoming breakers would appear in an extended ocean shot... guess I have to get a Cirkut and
find out for myself. Thanks for all the wonderful information available through your website.

[Clayton Tume]

Leonard

I'm happy to take criticism although I didn't take it as such from your posting. It's good to hear you enjoy the site, moreso that you have a Cirkut, it was setup for you!

I'd encourage you to experiment and keep an open mind of what can happen, for me it's the accidents, mistakes and problems that yield unexpected results. Something worth trying too is gearing the camera wrong. The outdated aerial film is perfect for this as you don't have too much to lose.

I met a guy years ago who showed me some stop start sequences shot on a Cirkut so that a single frame showed the same scene repeating giving a cinematic effect. Although you could now do the same thing digitally stitching frames together the spotaneity created with a moving camera is quite different.

Annie

I live by the beach and have shot a lot of film down there. The wave effect can give many repeating cycles across the film, while it can look quite natural at first glance a second look and you realise you've never seen a wave pattern like that.

The thing you have to remember with these cameras is you never see the finished picture until the neg is developed which is unlike any other camera where the viewfinder approximates the view. You get good at building up a mental picture in your head of what the scene may look like but often you are wrong! This is where experience comes to play and your ability to read a scene.

Something I haven't mentioned is that I think the #6 Cirkut outfit would be a good all round compromise compared with the #8 and #10. Although it doesn't sound like it's much smaller it's considerably smaller the the #8, almost half the weight and size. If I planned to do a lot of backpacking and shooting in general I'd hunt down one of these. They're based around a 5x7 body and film size is actually 6 1/2 inches, 6 x 40 inches is a nice size on the wall and the size I print most of my Roundshot negs. If you use the cheap 9 1/2" aerial you have to cut it down for a #8 anyway so it's the same amount of work but a format that's much more user friendly.

I hope that recommendation hasn't bumped up the prices of the #6, they generally sell for a few hundred dollars less than a #8.

Clayton