Alfred Hitchcock - incredible reference for deep deep blacks

[bob carnie]

I happened to watch a segment on TV the other night on Alfred Hitchcock explaining some of the behind the scenes of one of his movies.

I was completely blown away by the black white footage... Not only were the shadows blocked up , so were the quarter tones, which left only mid to upper highlight details.
He was wearing a black suit and it was actually haloing or bleeding as he walked through the scene... what a beautiful effect..

I cannot help wondering how little importance he placed on a full scale image, and I am now much more convinced that full range is not critical for great prints.

[John Kasaian]

Hitchcock was a genius for sure. As for a full range not being critical, I think that really depends on the subject, what you want to say and how dramatic you want it to be.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Another with harsh lighting that worked was Orson Welles' Touch of Evil.

[bob carnie]

when you say harsh lighting I suspect you mean a very large lighting ratio... I cannot help but think that there was some developing adjustments to that film as the bleed of black was very noticeble
It almost seemed like he put a black stocking over the lens that made the blacks blur.


Another with harsh lighting that worked was Orson Welles' Touch of Evil.

[Mark Sampson]

I'm confused. Was the effect you described in his films or in the documentary? Can it just be an effect of poor-quality repro? halo-ing suggests bad transfer to video. Hitchcock and/or his DPs were real masters so one wonders if you were seeing anyone's original intent.

[bob carnie]

It was a backstage doc about the making of the Birds..
I'm confused. Was the effect you described in his films or in the documentary? Can it just be an effect of poor-quality repro? halo-ing suggests bad transfer to video. Hitchcock and/or his DPs were real masters so one wonders if you were seeing anyone's original intent.

[Jac@stafford.net]

when you say harsh lighting I suspect you mean a very large lighting ratio... I cannot help but think that there was some developing adjustments to that film as the bleed of black was very noticeble
It almost seemed like he put a black stocking over the lens that made the blacks blur.

Yes, lighting ratio.

I've seen two, one being a poor copy or aged film. Could that be the difference?

[bob carnie]

Maybe but whatever it is the look is quite striking and I like it.


Yes, lighting ratio.

I've seen two, one being a poor copy or aged film. Could that be the difference?

[bob carnie]

The more I think about it I think you are right, as this kind of look I have never seen in motion film.. I have seen some prints made this way, but for Alfred Hitchcock to have this go out to the general public I think not.
It may have been something like a fifth generation copy, everytime we copy something we lose , but the high end seemed good.


Yes, lighting ratio.

I've seen two, one being a poor copy or aged film. Could that be the difference?

[Toyon]

That's why original prints are so important to maintain, they preserve as much as possible, the cinematographer's and director's original intent.

[mdarnton]

When I went to the Steichen exhibit last year here in Chicago, I was struck by how many of his photos, original prints, had the subjects dressed in black, disappearing into a black background, for a strongly graphic look that went beyond the subject matter. And these were photos intended for reproduction; in the actual magazines the effect was even stronger. I had never realized this, nor appreciated Steichen properly! Karsh, as well, liked to discard shadow information. The Steichen pix got me thinking differently about tonal range and how to use it, and I've been working with a black background lately trying to get some of the effects he got.

Steichen:
https://deathhour.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/la-actriz-anna-may-wong-foto-de-edward-steichen-publicada-en-vanity-fair-en-enero-de-1931.jpg
http://www.afterimagegallery.com/SteichenLeopoldStokowskiL.jpg
https://realgothic.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/18058503_norma_shearer_edward_steichen_02.jpg
https://pleasurephotoroom.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/edward-steichen-katharine-hepburn-1933.jpg
http://www.bjp-online.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Steichen-Greta_Garbo_John_Gilbert-940x1185.jpg

My attempt:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/michaeldarnton/16188815462/

[bob carnie]

Good samples - I will try to post some images that reflect what I saw as much more aggressive.



When I went to the Steichen exhibit last year here in Chicago, I was struck by how many of his photos, original prints, had the subjects dressed in black, disappearing into a black background, for a strongly graphic look that went beyond the subject matter. And these were photos intended for reproduction; in the actual magazines the effect was even stronger. I had never realized this, nor appreciated Steichen properly! Karsh, as well, liked to discard shadow information. The Steichen pix got me thinking differently about tonal range and how to use it, and I've been working with a black background lately trying to get some of the effects he got.

Steichen:
https://deathhour.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/la-actriz-anna-may-wong-foto-de-edward-steichen-publicada-en-vanity-fair-en-enero-de-1931.jpg
http://www.afterimagegallery.com/SteichenLeopoldStokowskiL.jpg
https://realgothic.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/18058503_norma_shearer_edward_steichen_02.jpg
https://pleasurephotoroom.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/edward-steichen-katharine-hepburn-1933.jpg
http://www.bjp-online.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Steichen-Greta_Garbo_John_Gilbert-940x1185.jpg

My attempt:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/michaeldarnton/16188815462/

[Leszek Vogt]

The whole "excersize" starts with picking the correct film stock (and grain)....and if it delivered too much tonality, the print can be "timed" in the lab and the contrast adjusted incrementally. Hitch was a maestro and the projection prints had the look he desired. Indeed, people could get lost in the shadows....totally orchestrated....and heeding the story. V. often Hitch is used as an example in film schools (UCLA for sure), due to rich story and plenty of technical approaches.

Les

[bob carnie]

I hope these samples will lead this thread in the direction I had hoped.. I believe Mr Hitchcock was brilliant in this area.129324129325

The modified jpeg has the beginnings of the direction I was observing in the doc. the sample images do not really have the lighting ratio with heavy cross lighting but you can imagine where I am going with this..
images courtesy of Fred Hunsberger .. collection housed in Conrad Grebel Museum Kitchener Ontario.

[mdarnton]

Now that I see your examples, which appear to be shot with on-camera flash, I wonder if what you saw in Hitchcock was the use of fresnel spotlights highlighting things for dramatic effect? Similar to what Hurrell did?

http://furinsider.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Brooke-Shields-photographed-by-George-Hurrell.jpg
http://www.bestmoviesbyfarr.com/static-assets/images/articles/background/2014/09/2-1hch8i7.jpg
http://fadedandblurred.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/george-hurrell-18.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5DVTAux0SRU/TcUv5f8xtyI/AAAAAAAAAbc/Qd9x2r_KA60/s1600/Jean-Harlow-Photo-by-George-Hurrell-1933.png

[Taija71A]

__

Bob, on an entirely different note (But if you still like 'Deep, Deep Blacks')...
Please feel free to check out some of Ralph Gibson's 'earlier' Work.

His 1971-2000 'Chiaroscuro' and 1980 'Black Series' (*Amongst others)...

Both make a very clear, compelling and cogent statement...
And are also eloquent, exercises -- In Film Processing & Printing!

http://www.ralphgibson.com/1971-2000-chiaroscuro.html
http://www.ralphgibson.com/1980-black-series.html
--
Cheers,

-Tim.
_________

[Martin Dake]

Another with harsh lighting that worked was Orson Welles' Touch of Evil.

And, 'The Third Man' by Orson Welles; great lighting in that one also.

[Brian Sims]

And, 'The Third Man' by Orson Welles; great lighting in that one also.

One of my top ten best movies. The chase through the sewers Vienna was spectacular. The sound was as important as the use of black.
BTW: Carol Reed directed the movie. Orson Welles was a main character, but I would say Joseph Cotten played a bigger role.

My favorite line: Orson Welles trying to deflect the moralizing of Joseph Cotten, "in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

[bob carnie]

Good Examples

I think I have to think this one through a bit.. This and some heavy side lighting with fresnels as suggested above.


__

Bob, on an entirely different note (But if you still like 'Deep, Deep Blacks')...
Please feel free to check out some of Ralph Gibson's 'earlier' Work.

His 1971-2000 'Chiaroscuro' and 1980 'Black Series' (*Amongst others)...

Both make a very clear, compelling and cogent statement...
And are also eloquent, exercises -- In Film Processing & Printing!

http://www.ralphgibson.com/1971-2000-chiaroscuro.html
http://www.ralphgibson.com/1980-black-series.html
--
Cheers,

-Tim.
_________

[Ben Calwell]

Those are beautiful examples. I must say, though, that it's considered genius when a famous photographer produces prints with a lot of empty, deep blacks, but for the unknown amateur who shows up at the local camera club meeting with such prints, he or she would likely get the "Where's Your Shadow Detail?" lecture from the textbook crowd.

[bob carnie]

True... but I think that would could be true about Joseph Sudek and his three shades of grey work, **where is the white and black in these images**

I really love the work of printers who push some of these boundry's , Brett Weston's prints that I have seen at least have deep deep blacks and not a lot of shadow detail.
Joel Peter Witkins prints that I have seen are incredible ...
Jock Sturges has wonderful soft highlight prints.
I could go on.


Simple is good and getting caught up with full tonal range as a barometer of good work is silly, and I will say it again there is no single perfect print.

For years I was making three contacts of my negatives... one normal, one two stop down and one two stop up... quite an interesting way of seeing your images and possibliltys.



Those are beautiful examples. I must say, though, that it's considered genius when a famous photographer produces prints with a lot of empty, deep blacks, but for the unknown amateur who shows up at the local camera club meeting with such prints, he or she would likely get the "Where's Your Shadow Detail?" lecture from the textbook crowd.

[bigdog]

Brett Weston's prints that I have seen at least have deep deep blacks and not a lot of shadow detail.

I've seen many of Brett's prints. They have taught me that shadow detail is overrated!


For years I was making three contacts of my negatives... one normal, one two stop down and one two stop up... quite an interesting way of seeing your images and possibliltys.

Hmm. I may have to try that.

We just recently (Christmas) got a large, hi-def TV. I've been watching (among other things) old series such as Hitchcock and the Twilight Zone. We were never really able to appreciate the cinematography on these old shows on the tube TVs. Twilight Zone has some of what you are talking about. Excellent B&W lighting, and lots of use of shadows in some scenes.


... it's considered genius when a famous photographer produces prints with a lot of empty, deep blacks, but for the unknown amateur who shows up at the local camera club meeting with such prints, he or she would likely get the "Where's Your Shadow Detail?" lecture from the textbook crowd.

Oh, lord, don't get me started on camera club standards ... :p