Suggestion for affordable 4x5 camera and film for hand-held aerial photography

[pchaplo]

I would like to do some 4x5 photography from the air. What 4x5 camera and film would work hand-held?

Givens: my working shutter speed is typically 1/400-1/500 when I shoot digital, with aperture around f/8. All i need is infinity focus and a way to aim :) Subject matter will be cityscapes and details such as buildings. In my closet I have my Schneider 150mm (Super Symmar XL, I think). That would be my lens of choice. (I also have a Schneider 90mm SA XL, but I think it would be too wide for what I envision).

CAMERA: I would like to get an affordable 4x5 for snapping a few LF shots while I am doing digital work. Please recommend a camera. I see the Linhof Teknika with grip--too expensive but that arrangement with grip looks useful. Perhaps some form of old press camera--I am scouring the internet to learn the various models. Perhaps a Graflex; gosh so many models. I see that the Crown Graphic does not have the focal plane shutter so I could just use the Copal shutter that I have in-lense, correct? I would like to do this on a shoestring budget. I need something that can hold my Schneider SS XL 150mm, which is quite heavy.

FILM: Near Dallas, I can find Ilford HP5+ and although I was raised on Kodak Tri-X, I can't find it stocked locally, so I was thinking of switching to HP5+. Also, I hope to find a Jobo or Unicolor roller that I can use to process. What developer would you recommend? I think I could shoot it at film speed of ~250 (depending on developer and testing). Let me know if I need to move this part of the post to the film board and I will.

Paul

[John Kasaian]

A Speed or Crown Graphic, Linhof Techika or MPP would work if you protected the bellows from the air stream.
Peter Gowland made an excellent 4x5 aerial camera (I have the 8x10 version) These were built around the lens so if you found one used it should have the correct lens in situ.
Some were infinity focus, others had a helical focus. They are rather simple box cameras so if you really wanted you could probably build one yourself for very little $$ around an old 4x5 back and some Baltic birch ply or aluminum for the box. Add handles & your lens. I believe Peter's website is still up try www.petergowland.com
129275

Use plastic film holders with textured faces as the smooth wooden holders will act like a one way demand valve when you change elevations with a film holder in place.
That's not fun. No, it's not.

Have fun!

[Tin Can]

A Speed or Crown Graphic, Linhof Techika or MPP would work if you protected the bellows from the air stream.
Peter Gowland made an excellent 4x5 aerial camera (I have the 8x10 version) These were built around the lens so if you found one used it should have the correct lens in situ.
Some were infinity focus, others had a helical focus. They are rather simple box cameras so if you really wanted you could probably build one yourself for very little $$ around an old 4x5 back and some Baltic birch ply or aluminum for the box. Add handles & your lens. I believe Peter's website is still up try www.petergowland.com
129275

Use plastic film holders with textured faces as the smooth wooden holders will act like a one way demand valve when you change elevations with a film holder in place.
That's not fun. No, it's not.

Have fun!

Heck there's one for sale right now. I am not connected with the seller, but I do watch Gowland sales.

281596213201

[Jim Jones]

The Crown Graphic is a good versatile camera, more than needed for Paul's purpose. Any of the other common press cameras will do: Busch, Burke & James, or Graphic Anniversary. Only the last has a focal plane shutter. A 1/400 or 1/500 second between-the-lens shutter should be fine. It permits shooting at f/11 or f/16 with ISO 400 film on a sunny day, so any of the 127, 135, or 162mm lenses that come on press cameras should perform well enough. The sports finder on many press cameras works well enough for quick framing in aerial photography. I suggest taping the focus, aperture, and shutter adjustments so they can't accidently be changed. A cardboard shield can be improvised to protect the bellows.

[Kodachrome25]

I assume you are using a Kenyon Gyro then? Because unless shooting from a hot air balloon, 1/500th is pretty slow without one and often results in unusable images. I shoot aerials professionally and like to really produce when I am paying $500+ an hour for air time. So my tool of choice at least for aerial shots that are offered as fine art is a Hasselblad 500ELX with the 9 volt conversion mounted to a Kenyon KS-6 gyro, up to 6 backs loaded and usually 60mm & 100mm CF lenses.

I see the appeal for a larger neg but as always at the end of the day, a banger shot on MF can make shelving the idea of 4x5 an easy one.

[jnantz]

if you use your speed graphic,
contact sk grimes and speak with them
about making a sheath for you bellows
so it doesn't compress from down-draft.
it might end up being cheaper to use a gowland, since
it is made for aerial work ...

good luck !

[John Kasaian]

My preferred B&W film for aerials was TMY, which fortunately is still available in 4x5. HP-5+ is always good so that is what I'd use today.
Two more thoughts (I'm certainly not a "pro" so take this with a grain of salt)
Speed is your friend----fast film with a true ISO of 400 & lenses that perform well shot wide open (I'll shoot the Nikon M on the Gowland at f/9)
Vibration isn't----don't let your camera touch the fuselage while shooting

By all means do a search for Bradford Washburn and look at the results from his technique with LF aerial cameras.

Have fun!

[jbenedict]

Any sort of filter suggested for the lens?

[adelorenzo]

Bradford Washburn was the first name that jumped into my mind as well. He shot his aerial photographs with formats up to 8x10, always handheld. I believe he used miltary aerial cameras, I see them on eBay from time to time but they seem to fetch a pretty decent price.

[pchaplo]

I hadn't thought of the pressure changes in the bellows with altitude changes. Also, the tip about textured plastic film holders. I was thinking that when I fly, to minimize pressure effects, I could also wait until I get to working altitude to insert a film holder and let the camera "breath." Great point! I love the work of Bradford Washburn and he is one of my inspirations in my fine art work. The Gowland camera looks awesome--but I may opt for a press camera. In terms of Graphlex, if prefer no focal plane shutter and a Graphlok back, what are my best choices of model? My Schneider SS XL 150mm has a Copal 1 shutter. For Graphlex I see that there are wooden and metal lense boards--can I find stock metal board for Copal 1 size hole?

I know MF is a great option and shot Pentax 6x7 for years -- this is a labor of love for 4x5 and a heartfelt craftsman-type obsession :)

[John Kasaian]

Bradford Washburn was the first name that jumped into my mind as well. He shot his aerial photographs with formats up to 8x10, always handheld. I believe he used miltary aerial cameras, I see them on eBay from time to time but they seem to fetch a pretty decent price.
I've got a K-17 with both lenses, and a roll film processor that I haven't been able to give away. If I could fit it in the VW without bottoming out the suspension, I'd drop it off at the San Diego Aviation museum (Castle Air Museum doesn't want it.)

[John Kasaian]

Yellow K2---not much of a filter factor to deal with(I forget exactly how much it.) Fortunately the Tiffen filters from my Nikon SLR fit the M

[Mat5121]

William Garnett messed around with 4x5 for a long time; he used a K-20 aerial camera as well as an Anniversary Speed Graphic but had problems with the film picking up vibration and causing blur due to play in the film holder. He ended up using the Pentax 67, calling it the ideal camera for aerial photography.

[EdSawyer]

Why do you need to use the 150XL on 4x5? Get a better smaller 4x5 150mm like a Sironar S for less money/weight/hassle.

[richardman]

I think a modern metal body 4x5 like the ones from Gaoersi or Dayi are perfect for this. No issue with bellow and can take 150mm easily. They are with $600-$900 though plus lenscone and lens.

[lfpf]

pchaplo,

For aerial, roll-film backs or cameras will enable more frames certainly on a choppy, cramped flight while shooting through a windy opening. Bellows and focusing could be challenges.

If 4/5 sheet film is your choice and distance is infinity, then a solid/non-bellows camera and aiming device could work well for you. As a craftsman, a DIY HOBO type is solid and if you weld aluminum you might be almost done. I found that additional weight (ballast) was useful on choppy flights.

While not much, aerial experience has been on North American B-25 Mitchells, a Curtiss C-46 and North American SNJs. Noisy, bumpy, windy and each an experience.

[Greg Y]

I've done a bunch of aerial work, mostly in winter out of Bell 212 helicopters. I am glad that Bradford Washburn's name came up. He was the master of aerial work. If I chose to shoot 4x5 i'd use Grafmatic holders...but like some of the others here, my cameras of choice were medium format. Fuji rangefinders especially the GSW690iii & the Mamiya 6. I still have some 220 in my fridge & typically shot at 1/250 with a yellow or orange filter at 1/250th. What kind of machine are you flying in & will you have a small window or the door off? If you're paying for the flying, changing holders will be costing you money. I have some very nice enlargements to 20x24" with excellent sharpness.

[Tin Can]

Anybody remember the door to door aerial photography guys, that would shoot all kinds of semi-rural areas, and then knock on your door to sell you a cool shot of your property? I bought one, it was much better than Google Earth.

Of course this predated Google Earth by decades.

[Oren Grad]

Why do you need to use the 150XL on 4x5? Get a better smaller 4x5 150mm like a Sironar S for less money/weight/hassle.

+1.

With the SS-XL, you get inferior optical performance compared to a compact modern plasmat optimized for 4x5, you're carrying a pound of unnecessary extra weight, you're spraying a lot of unnecessary, possibly flare-generating light around the inside of the camera because of the vast excess coverage, you're running a higher risk of damage in rough handling because of the huge front cell, and of course you'd have much more money at stake if something goes wrong.

[John Kasaian]

Anybody remember the door to door aerial photography guys, that would shoot all kinds of semi-rural areas, and then knock on your door to sell you a cool shot of your property? I bought one, it was much better than Google Earth.

Of course this predated Google Earth by decades.
Yep.

[Kirk Gittings]

I assume you are using a Kenyon Gyro then? Because unless shooting from a hot air balloon, 1/500th is pretty slow without one and often results in unusable images. I shoot aerials professionally and like to really produce when I am paying $500+ an hour for air time. So my tool of choice at least for aerial shots that are offered as fine art is a Hasselblad 500ELX with the 9 volt conversion mounted to a Kenyon KS-6 gyro, up to 6 backs loaded and usually 60mm & 100mm CF lenses.

I see the appeal for a larger neg but as always at the end of the day, a banger shot on MF can make shelving the idea of 4x5 an easy one.

I don't often shoot aerial (anymore).....but when I did I preferred a setup similar to what he is describing. This is good advice.

[pchaplo]

+1.

With the SS-XL, you get inferior optical performance compared to a compact modern plasmat optimized for 4x5, you're carrying a pound of unnecessary extra weight, you're spraying a lot of unnecessary, possibly flare-generating light around the inside of the camera because of the vast excess coverage, you're running a higher risk of damage in rough handling because of the huge front cell, and of course you'd have much more money at stake if something goes wrong.

Interesting--I hadn't considered that. Thanks! I will learn more about the plasmat design -- is that whats used in a typical 152mm lens on a Crown Graphic? Also I am still thinking about movement of the camera back and front in the wind. I was thinking that I could try a Crown Graphic or Anniversary -- maybe a loaner -- on an assignment where Im shooting digital and take a few 4x5 test shots! Excited!

[pchaplo]

I fly in light choppers and Cessnas. I will search and learn more about Grafmatic holders -- but for now, can you tell me the advantage?

[Oren Grad]

I will learn more about the plasmat design -- is that whats used in a typical 152mm lens on a Crown Graphic?

I think the 152's you'll find on Graphics tend to be tessars - one of our Graphic experts can correct me if I'm wrong. What I meant by "modern plasmat" in this context was any of Rodenstock Sironar-N/Apo-Sironar-N/Apo-Sironar-S, Schneider Symmar-S/Apo-Symmar/Apo-Symmar L, Nikon Nikkor W, Fuji Fujinon W/Fujinon CM-W.


Also I am still thinking about movement of the camera back and front in the wind. I was thinking that I could try a Crown Graphic or Anniversary -- maybe a loaner -- on an assignment where I'm shooting digital and take a few 4x5 test shots! Excited!

Yes! Get your feet wet ASAP, start to play with the sort of camera you have in mind, get a feel for how it handles and what you can and can't do with it, and you'll make much better-informed decisions for your aerial work. And you can have plenty of fun along the way!

[Dan Fromm]

I fly in light choppers and Cessnas. I will search and learn more about Grafmatic holders -- but for now, can you tell me the advantage?

Grafmatics are six shot magazines. They let you get off six shots between taking one Grafmatic out of the back and putting the next one in. With regular film holders, its take the first shot, remove the holder, turn over, reinsert, take the second shot, remove the holder, insert the next holder, ... There are many good reasons why cameras used for aerial surveys and most military aerial cameras used roll film. 5" and 10" roll film, depending on the format.

[John Kasaian]

Grafmatics are six shot magazines. They let you get off six shots between taking one Grafmatic out of the back and putting the next one in. With regular film holders, its take the first shot, remove the holder, turn over, reinsert, take the second shot, remove the holder, insert the next holder, ... There are many good reasons why cameras used for aerial surveys and most military aerial cameras used roll film. 5" and 10" roll film, depending on the format.
Those dark slides do tend to want to take flight, lol! I like shooting from Super Cubs because they go sow and they have clamshell doors.

[pchaplo]

Grafmatics are six shot magazines. They let you get off six shots between taking one Grafmatic out of the back and putting the next one in. With regular film holders, its take the first shot, remove the holder, turn over, reinsert, take the second shot, remove the holder, insert the next holder, ... There are many good reasons why cameras used for aerial surveys and most military aerial cameras used roll film. 5" and 10" roll film, depending on the format.

That would be helpful -- I will read more about the Grafmatic -- thanks!! Wondering: do Grafmatics scratch the film? They sound ingenious! I can see why roll film was used and as I said I shot aerials for years with Pentax 6x7 ...I just want to play with 4x5 and perhaps find a Jobo and do some processing. To me its like cooking :)

[pchaplo]

Those dark slides do tend to want to take flight, lol! I like shooting from Super Cubs because they go sow and they have clamshell doors.

I started working from high-wing aircraft, now most of my work is helicopter. I have to think about safety and the dark slides. I might need to secure them. Also I need to find more Fidelity Elites -- is there a buy/sell forum here?

[Drew Bedo]

My $0.02 worth:

what about one of the footman cameras? No bellows and infinity could be locked in in some way, I'd think.

When the Wanderlust project comes out, that would be a less expensive option as well.

Fixed focus without movements means that a DIY camera is possible. A Grafloc back a cigar box and shop tools could be made to work.

Whatever you do, please let us know and post a picture.

[John Kasaian]

Also I need to find more Fidelity Elites -- is there a buy/sell forum here? Yes there is! IIRC, after 30 days you can access.

[Kodachrome25]

If I were determined to shoot 4x5 in flight, I would also consider a Fotoman or Chamonix Saber with a few Grafmatics ( plus 2x 10 shot Kinematics in my case ). This might even be a good candidate:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fotoman-45sps-4x5-camera-with-150mm-Schneider-APO-Symmar-f-5-6-extras-/301530115323?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4634986cfb

Bust seriously though, I get really nice 20" prints out of TMY2 negs in my Hasselblad and really nail it up there with 4-6 backs loaded up...

129365

[pchaplo]

If I were determined to shoot 4x5 in flight, I would also consider a Fotoman or Chamonix Saber with a few Grafmatics ( plus 2x 10 shot Kinematics in my case ). This might even be a good candidate:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fotoman-45sps-4x5-camera-with-150mm-Schneider-APO-Symmar-f-5-6-extras-/301530115323?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4634986cfb

Bust seriously though, I get really nice 20" prints out of TMY2 negs in my Hasselblad and really nail it up there with 4-6 backs loaded up...

129365

Love that shot, Kodachrome25. Where was that taken? ...I did a similar shot over Dinali showing McKinley. Speaking of cameras -- funny I was just looking at that Fotoman! Not only am i learning about cameras and Graphmatics -- now I hear of Kinematics (what a great name!). Many thanks.

I just loaded-up with HP5+ and got a refresher in loading Fidelity Elites from an old friend who is a veteran photographer and lab tech par exelance! I am thrilled like a kid!

[Kodachrome25]

Love that shot, Kodachrome25. Where was that taken? ...I did a similar shot over Dinali showing McKinley. Speaking of cameras -- funny I was just looking at that Fotoman! Not only am i learning about cameras and Graphmatics -- now I hear of Kinematics (what a great name!). Many thanks.

I just loaded-up with HP5+ and got a refresher in loading Fidelity Elites from an old friend who is a veteran photographer and lab tech par exelance! I am thrilled like a kid!

It was taken near where I live in the Colorado Rockies. I have two each of Grafmatics and Kinematics, I have yet to fully trust them yet as they seem to reeeeaaaallly stir up a lot of dust.

I looked at completed auctions on Fotoman cameras and other than the cracked GG, I have to say it looks perfect for aerials considering where the trigger is at and those nice love handles. Having the lens be Copal zero is key here too, 1/500th and all...

[Daniel Stone]

If a "standard" focal length lens is enough for you, take a look at the modified Polaroid cameras. Like those from Alpenhause.
I've owned(and sold) two, and might purchase another sometime in the future. Steve is a nice guy, and does a classy job of making a nice conversion.

I've also seen some homemade "box" cameras that could work in this situation(fixed focus, no movements).

-Dan