Betterscanning altternative: Epson V850/800 holders work for V750/700

[Deval]

Hi everyone, I thought I'd share a "hack" I tried out this weekend. I ordered some spare parts from epson, specifically their MF and 4x5 holder for the new Epson V850 and used them for my Epson V750. They are much cheaper than the betterscanning alternative(BTW I also have the betterscanning holder). It has a pretty easy adjustment mechanism(adjustable thumb tabs in 5 possible positions) for calibrating the optimal height.

Pros:
No taping or creating masks to the glass as compared to the better scanning holder
Much easier to find optimal holder height(only four tabs to adjust) compared to using a mini allen key to make 8 adjustments for the betterscanning holder
Keeps the film much flatter than the V750/700 holder

Cons:
Its a bit tricky to get the film flush into the holder especially for the medium format holder as there are slots to fit the film under. I've found a couple of tricks(which can be googled) but either involves modifying the holder or touching the emulsion side...therefore I would really recommend thin gloves. It would have been such a minor design improvement to rectify this.

[Pali K]

Thanks for the tip Deval. How much did the 4x5 holder cost for you?

-Pali

[Deval]

$US 14.56

https://www.compassmicro.com/parts_detail.cfm?ID=7641&form.mfg=Epson&form.printerstyle=Scanners&form.printername=Perfection%20V850%20Pro

[djdister]

A great idea! Any problems using the Epson scanning software (especially due to the dot code at the top of the holder)? Also, does the 800/850 120 holder accommodate a 6x17 negative?

[Moopheus]

A great idea! Any problems using the Epson scanning software (especially due to the dot code at the top of the holder)? Also, does the 800/850 120 holder accommodate a 6x17 negative?

The Epson web site indicates the holder should accommodate 1 frame up to 6x20, so it looks like 6x17 should be okay.

I have to admit this is tempting. I use the betterscanning holder, and it clearly gets better results than the standard holders, but it is kind of a pain to use. I put off scanning stuff because of it.

[Pali K]

That is an awesome deal - ordered two :) Thanks Deval!

[Deval]

Its the same epsonscan software as far as I know. Nothing hardcoded or anything...The nobs fit into the same exact place on the V750. At first the film won't seem like its flush. There are retainer slots jutting over the the ANR "glass"(which is really plastic) to slide the film under. Once you open the packaging, it takes a few tries to loosen this slot up easy enough to fit the 4x5 film. This applies to the 4x5 version as well as medium format, but is more challenging with the MF because there are more to align with. With a little practice, its pretty easy to get the film in.It creates an absolute flat film plane which was always a problem with the 7 series holders. Perhaps could have been designed a little bit better, but I already like it loads over my other holders and am contemplating rescanning a lot of my work.

[Steve Goldstein]

I'm looking at the Compass Micro site and don't see a holder listed as "medium format". They do have one for "Brownie", which I always thought was 127. Is that the correct holder for 120? And is the "film guide" also required?

In the bottom diagram here http://www.compassmicro.com/files/Perfection%20V850%20Pro.pdf the "Brownie" holder is #10 and the film guide is #17.

[Moopheus]

The film guide is for aligning larger sheets of film placed directly on the platen.

[Deval]

I bought the brownie one for medium format. It fits 120. I believe it's mislabeled because that isn't a holder that epson makes

[Sal Santamaura]

..."Brownie", which I always thought was 127...Trivia note. Brownie is 120/620. That's where Zenza Bronica came from: "Zenzaburo's Brownie Camera." :)

[Deval]

Thanks for the trivia note. Makes sense now

[djdister]

Epson does not call it the "Brownie" format, that's just the folks at Compass Micro being cute. Epson calls it the medium format film guide, and it is identified as part number 10 on the Epson V850 exploded parts guide pdf as Steve already noted.

[StoneNYC]

If they made a 127 version that would be AWESOME!!! I would buy that in a second!

I'm sure they would sell a lot, Betterscanning was supposed to make one and then I dunno what happened...

[richardman]

They are now out of 4x5 holders, probably because of this post :-)

They will order more stuff from Epson though. I presume they do "first come, first serve."

[Deval]

if you go to the Epson website there are other parts vendors listed.

[pchaplo]

They are now out of 4x5 holders, probably because of this post :-)

Add +1 to the backorder. They knew what I was calling for :)

[Witold Grabiec]

Has Epson made modifications to MF holders? The original reviews of 800 and many posts, clearly stated the film would NOT fit under the tabs and the holders were too narrow to use effectively with MF film. Also, isn't AN glass made of acrylic not glass, which is a bummer for me.

[Deval]

When I first got the holders that was my impression as well as far as fitting. The same impression applies to 4x5 as well. I will try to post a video of how I load the film under the tabs. The v850pdf instruction pdf shows it incorrectly. The acrylic back doesn't affect optical quality in my opinion compared to my betterscanning holder

[Jim Andrada]

For some strange reason they refer to 120 as "Brownie Film" (Maybe because 620 was used in the old Brownie cameras)

[biedron]

When I first got the holders that was my impression as well as far as fitting. The same impression applies to 4x5 as well. I will try to post a video of how I load the film under the tabs. The v850pdf instruction pdf shows it incorrectly. The acrylic back doesn't affect optical quality in my opinion compared to my betterscanning holder

I'd be interested in hearing how you managed to get the film under the tabs - I've been unsuccessful so far, and am reluctant to force things too much as I don't want to damage my transparency.

Thanks

Bob

[Moopheus]

Did Epson provide film holders that don't actually hold film? That seems to make not sense.

[biedron]

Did Epson provide film holders that don't actually hold film? That seems to make not sense.

Well, sort of. After posting the question earlier, I googled the Epson instructions for the V800 (I've got a V700), the instructions say the film is to sit on top of the beveled tabs, which isn't very satisfactory at first blush. However when you close the lid, things seem to be held reasonably flat, at least after a bit of time to "settle". When I first closed the lid and looked at how flat the film was (by reflected light), I was not impressed. But I let is sit for a bit and after it was quite flat judging from the reflected surface. I want to do some more tests to confirm this is going to happen consistently. One issue is, with the film on top of the bevels, it is a pain to get the film perfectly square in the holder - the older holders are better in that respect.

I also had some odd behavior when scanning with the V800 holders in my V700. First, the preview in "thumbnail" mode came up as 3 partial slices of my 4x5 transparency - sort of like I had scanned 3 film strips. I never had that happen with my V700 holder. Second, for the first time ever I had to use the "marquee" to isolate the 4x5 image from the black background - without using the marquee the scan included the image and the film holder. I never had to use the marquee before - the software automatically figured out what was the image area and what was part of the holder. Perhaps there will be a software upgrade for the V700 to better handle the new holders at some point.

For me, the jury is still out on whether these are an overall improvement over the old holders. The height adjustment is definitely better.

Bob

[Pali K]

Has anybody received these from compassmicro yet? I placed an order with both 120 and 4x5 carriers and I later found out that one was out of stock and my order has not be processed because of it. Just curious if anyone was able to receive these after Deval posted this thread.

Pali

[biedron]

Has anybody received these from compassmicro yet? I placed an order with both 120 and 4x5 carriers and I later found out that one was out of stock and my order has not be processed because of it. Just curious if anyone was able to receive these after Deval posted this thread.

Pali

Pali,

Yes, I ordered a couple of 4x5 holders from Compass Micro soon after Deval's post and have already received them.

Bob

ps: in my post above, ignore the bit about the film relaxing to a perfectly flat state; I was looking at the anti newton "glass" and not the film - doh!. With the film installed as per Epson's direction, there is some warpage of the film as it is clamped by the holder, and it doesn't go away. Not sure how much effect this has on the scan sharpness though.

[soleh]

Hi everyone, I thought I'd share a "hack" I tried out this weekend. I ordered some spare parts from epson, specifically their MF and 4x5 holder for the new Epson V850 and used them for my Epson V750. They are much cheaper than the betterscanning alternative(BTW I also have the betterscanning holder). It has a pretty easy adjustment mechanism(adjustable thumb tabs in 5 possible positions) for calibrating the optimal height.

Pros:
No taping or creating masks to the glass as compared to the better scanning holder
Much easier to find optimal holder height(only four tabs to adjust) compared to using a mini allen key to make 8 adjustments for the betterscanning holder
Keeps the film much flatter than the V750/700 holder

Cons:
Its a bit tricky to get the film flush into the holder especially for the medium format holder as there are slots to fit the film under. I've found a couple of tricks(which can be googled) but either involves modifying the holder or touching the emulsion side...therefore I would really recommend thin gloves. It would have been such a minor design improvement to rectify this.
Thanks for the tip Deval.

http://rockbullet.tk/70/o.png

[welly]

Just out of interest, is it possible you can make a scan with the original film holder and the v850 holders as a comparison? I'm keen to see if it'll improve my scan but getting one of these into Australia costs a fair bit more than $15! Thanks!

[Deval]

Bob, I haven't done what is in the following link because I've managed to get the film under the tabs(sorry, still need to record a video for that one). the following would accomplish getting the film in the same plane

http://www.stockholmviews.com/epson_v850/epsonV850tweaks.html

[djdister]

Just out of interest, is it possible you can make a scan with the original film holder and the v850 holders as a comparison? I'm keen to see if it'll improve my scan but getting one of these into Australia costs a fair bit more than $15! Thanks!

Would also definitely like to see comparison scans using the same film in the v750 and v850 holders, with no unsharp masking applied.

[Deval]

Just out of interest, is it possible you can make a scan with the original film holder and the v850 holders as a comparison? I'm keen to see if it'll improve my scan but getting one of these into Australia costs a fair bit more than $15! Thanks!

Welly, The first picture is 6x6 on the default holder, the second one is an optimized height with the v850 holder. same level of unsharp mask. the only difference was the application of a contrast curve on the 750 one. Zoom in and you will see the difference. I can try to do some more as I understand the limitation in the comparison.
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8649/16698678072_967e1d1958_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rrB6dC)Old Scan (https://flic.kr/p/rrB6dC) by DevalJoshi (https://www.flickr.com/people/27757526@N00/), on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7286/16374074495_c4655d5558_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qWVpTe)Hogwarts Express (https://flic.kr/p/qWVpTe) by DevalJoshi (https://www.flickr.com/people/27757526@N00/), on Flickr

[djdister]

Welly, The first picture is 6x6 on the default holder, the second one is an optimized height with the v850 holder. same level of unsharp mask. the only difference was the application of a contrast curve on the 750 one. Zoom in and you will see the difference. I can try to do some more as I understand the limitation in the comparison.


So, the v850 holder scan appears to be quite a bit sharper than the v750 holder scan...

[Moopheus]

Bob, I haven't done what is in the following link because I've managed to get the film under the tabs(sorry, still need to record a video for that one). the following would accomplish getting the film in the same plane

http://www.stockholmviews.com/epson_v850/epsonV850tweaks.html

If you read through the comments on this link, it seems that Epson f'd up the holders and had to redo them. So if you've got a bad one you might be able to get a replacement.

[welly]

That second one looks sharper alright. I may have to make a purchase.

[Deval]

That second one looks sharper alright. I may have to make a purchase.

Welly, personally I was having issues keeping my film flat on the medium format holders more than my 4x5 scans which may account for the difference. If you are getting acceptable scans with the default holder, no reason to jump ship, especially if there are any rumors out there on design improvement..maybe wait for a new batch to come out at least. I was just happy that it fit perfectly well in my 750 and made it a lot easier to optimize than my betterscanning holder.

[Pali K]

Received mine yesterday and though I am having the same problem keeping the film flat, I think these are a significant improvement over the v700/v750 holders. I was able to achieve better detail at the highest setting and the fact that I don't have to manage inserting ANR glass for color negatives really speeds up the setup process.

My overall 120 image is better than the previous holder with ANR glass so I can't really complain about the flatness issue.

Pali

[Moopheus]

I just got mine too, and my initial impressions are basically the same--focus is clearly much improved over the original, flatness still seems to an issue, but still also improved. Taping to the bettescanning glass still beats it for flatness. However, I've only made a few scans to determine focus, so there may be room for improvement there.

[richardman]

I got mine and it's much easier to set focus plane than the old 4x5 holder. Definitely keeping it.

[Jim Cole]

Is there any reason that the new holders won't work with the older 4990?

[Deval]

Good question Jim. Do the 700 holders work for the 4990. If so then you are in luck and I would bet they would fit

[Jim Cole]

Deval,

I don't know that either. I guess I need to research a bit more. Thanks.

[Kirk Gittings]

The 4990 holders were very different if I remember right. Not saying they couldn't be adapted. But the line got a total redesign after the the 4990, where as the 750/700 to the 850/800 was more of an update of the light source and holders.

[Jim Cole]

Thanks, Kirk. I need to revisit some old threads when the 750/700 came out and see if there are any references to backwards compatibility of the holders. I have to finish building a new computer first.

[Sal Santamaura]

I own no scanner of any kind and have never done film scanning, but am considering a foray into it, possibly using a V850. This thread prompted me to order one of the 4x5 holders from Compass Micro for evaluation. It was delivered today.


Did Epson provide film holders that don't actually hold film? That seems to make not sense.It would appear that Epson did. Unless one performs the modification Deval linked to in post #28, standard 4x5 film will be warped by the bevels and less flat even than it typically is in a glassless enlarger negative carrier. In fact, Epson's V850 User's guide says the following about loading 4x5 film in the holder:


Note: You may need to trim the edges of the film so that it sits properly in the film holder without bending or warping. Do not cover any of the small holes in the holder.

After a lifetime of darkroom work with precise metal enlargers, it's appalling to me that a manufacturer is demanding I cut down my originals. There's no way those holder tabs are capable of being lifted and having film slipped under them on a regular basis without fatigue and eventual fracture, not to mention scratching the film's edges each time. I never used a Negaflat and don't intend to start defacing negatives now.

Another thing which (negatively) impressed me is how difficult it is to get things dust free, even using a Static Wisk brush. The ABS plastic frame and polymer "non-glare" sheet appear to hold their charge even though our humidity here is currently fairly high and despite the brush attempting to discharge them. If Epson scanners are comprised of similar plastics, it's no wonder I've read complaints by people needing to disassemble them for cleaning under the glass.

My conclusion after this little adventure is that, should I elect to explore hybrid printing anyway, a more expensive BetterScanning holder will be necessary in order to achieve satisfactory flatness. Would anyone who uses that product please post about its construction materials and resistance to static buildup? Thanks in advance.

[StoneNYC]

I own no scanner of any kind and have never done film scanning, but am considering a foray into it, possibly using a V850. This thread prompted me to order one of the 4x5 holders from Compass Micro for evaluation. It was delivered today.

It would appear that Epson did. Unless one performs the modification Deval linked to in post #28, standard 4x5 film will be warped by the bevels and less flat even than it typically is in a glassless enlarger negative carrier. In fact, Epson's V850 User's guide says the following about loading 4x5 film in the holder:


Note: You may need to trim the edges of the film so that it sits properly in the film holder without bending or warping. Do not cover any of the small holes in the holder.

After a lifetime of darkroom work with precise metal enlargers, it's appalling to me that a manufacturer is demanding I cut down my originals. There's no way those holder tabs are capable of being lifted and having film slipped under them on a regular basis without fatigue and eventual fracture, not to mention scratching the film's edges each time. I never used a Negaflat and don't intend to start defacing negatives now.

Another thing which (negatively) impressed me is how difficult it is to get things dust free, even using a Static Wisk brush. The ABS plastic frame and polymer "non-glare" sheet appear to hold their charge even though our humidity here is currently fairly high and despite the brush attempting to discharge them. If Epson scanners are comprised of similar plastics, it's no wonder I've read complaints by people needing to disassemble them for cleaning under the glass.

My conclusion after this little adventure is that, should I elect to explore hybrid printing anyway, a more expensive BetterScanning holder will be necessary in order to achieve satisfactory flatness. Would anyone who uses that product please post about its construction materials and resistance to static buildup? Thanks in advance.

To be succinct, you're observations are correct, the entire scanner is made of a plastic that holds a lot of charge and attracts dust, poor thinking/planning, the V750 I own at least has film holders that fit the film, it's pretty bad that the new 850 iteration was sized improperly, I saw someone post that they had a recall and will replace them with ones that fit properly is that correct?

The holders from Betterscanning are made of a different plastic, it holds a lot less charge and is a lot less prone to dust collection, the glass (ANR) is very good, better than the ANR glass that came with my 8x10 Saltzman, but thicker, it's "green" edged but only SLIGHTLY so it shouldn't affect color temperature with color scanning.

The adjustable height "feet" work great and once set, don't need to be adjusted, they are tight enough that they don't slip etc.

I just wish they made a 127 holder, they said they were going to and then I'm not sure what happened there...

I find that with the V750 the 4x5 and 35mm holders are good enough and only the 120 do I need the betterscanning holder. I COULD use one for 35mm film that is really curly, but for the most part it will suffice, the 35mm slide holders work very well and the 4x5 holder is the best of the lot and I wouldn't bother getting a betterscanning holder because the 4x5 epson holder is pretty darn good.

Hope that was helpful.

[richardman]

The observation is correct - sadly the new 4x5 holder does attract more dust and buckles the negs :-( Back to the old 4x5 holder.

FYI - as mentioned before, the Betterscanning 4x5 holder is not noticeably better than the old standard Epson holder. The BS 120 holder, OTOH, is a must, IMHO.