Negative damage using the Taco method [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

View Full Version : Negative damage using the Taco method

Peakbagger

8-Feb-2015, 18:57

8-Feb-2015, 19:14

You might make some homemade btzs tubes and skip the taco method.

StoneNYC

8-Feb-2015, 19:22

If the lid is pressing on the negatives then you're using a tank that is too small for them, secondly I personally never found the taco method to work without having some minor scratching issues, many suggestions will come your way, a few main ones in order of cost (low to high) would be... 1. BTSZ tubes 2. A 3 reel paterson tank and MOD54 insert 3. A JOBO 2500 series tank and 2509n reel, and 4. A JOBO 3010 tank.

All are good, just personal preference, convenience and cost. IMO given money as no object I would go 1. 3010 tank, 2. tank and 2509n (which is what I currently have/use) 3. MOD54 and 4. BTSZ tanks but again that's personal preference.

Good luck!

Light Guru

8-Feb-2015, 19:22

I don't do taco developing of sheet film myself but I have read about it several times. Basically you need to use a taller tank. The tank I have always seen listed as the tank people use for the taco method is the paterson tank that will hold 3x35mm rolls or 2x120 rolls.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/116-Paterson-116-Multireel-3-Film-Developing-Tank-without-Reels

Michael Cienfuegos

8-Feb-2015, 23:34

I have better luck with a Unidrum for developing film. I can only do four sheets of 4x5 at a time, but it works. Leave the tacos for lunch and avoid the grief.

m

Michael Clark

9-Feb-2015, 22:06

John Kasaian

9-Feb-2015, 23:10

An Elwood enlarger is excellent at warming tortillas for soft tacos. Mmmmm! I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.

StoneNYC

9-Feb-2015, 23:40

An Elwood enlarger is excellent at warming tortillas for soft tacos. Mmmmm! I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.

There's one on eBay right now.

Doremus Scudder

10-Feb-2015, 03:47

Hi everyone, I decided to take the plunge and develop using a daylight tank, rather than the tray method.

... When I take them out of the tank after dev/stop/wash, there is noticeable crimping happening at the middle top of the negative where it curled.
Note, there is no CREASING, just physical damage at the top and it shows when printed/scanned

Does anyone have any advice on how to avoid this? ...

Thanks!

What the heck is wrong with tray processing. I'm fumble-fingered and unable to type three words without correcting twice yet I manage to tray process up to 50 sheets a day sometimes without mishap. Sure, there's a learning curve, but what's a few hours and a few sacrificed sheets of film to learn the technique compared to the simplicity, flexibility and evenness of good tray processing (not to mention economy...).

Go back to trays.

Or, if you avoided trays to do taco, then get some trays and figure it out. It's easy once you figure out how not to scratch negatives when shuffling, which you should do with scrap film anyway.

Best,

Doremus

stradibarrius

10-Feb-2015, 06:19

I have used the taco method successfully for several years. Yes the daylight insert will touch the top of the negatives and that is normal. If the rubber bands are too tight or if you let them "snap" around the negative when you put them on it will sometimes crease the negative and cause the crease. The place where I had to process my film in trays was over a bathtub and that was much fun for me. The taco method is a good method for me. I have just got a Mod 54 and have only used it one time so far. If it doesn't work out I will go back to the taco.

StoneNYC

10-Feb-2015, 08:54

What the heck is wrong with tray processing. I'm fumble-fingered and unable to type three words without correcting twice yet I manage to tray process up to 50 sheets a day sometimes without mishap. Sure, there's a learning curve, but what's a few hours and a few sacrificed sheets of film to learn the technique compared to the simplicity, flexibility and evenness of good tray processing (not to mention economy...).

Go back to trays.

Or, if you avoided trays to do taco, then get some trays and figure it out. It's easy once you figure out how not to scratch negatives when shuffling, which you should do with scrap film anyway.

Best,

Doremus

Not everyone has a darkroom...

Peakbagger

10-Feb-2015, 10:18

Stephen Collector

10-Feb-2015, 10:18

Hi, As for tray processing 2 questions to avoid irregularity. How long do you presoak the negs in water? When you shuffle the film are you doing so very slowly? I process up to 5 sheets per time and got some streaking in sky areas.

Kirk Gittings

10-Feb-2015, 13:22

Hey thanks for the suggestions everyone. I initially wanted to do tray but the lure of daylight processing was too much. I also don't have much room for all those trays. BTZS is not strictly daylight is it? You still have to pour the developer in the dark, I think. Anyways, I'd like to make this daylight taco thing work since a lot of people have had success with it, so why not I?

So, I was encouraged when I looked at this set: https://www.flickr.com/photos/digi-film/sets/72157627864733730/
He has the same size tank that I do. I think.
I also encouraged by this video, same size tank as me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEzD8EGRPbU

One thing that just dawned on me is that they do not have screw top lids. They have the newer tanks with the snap on lids. I wonder if this is what I am running up against.

I'll try again, maybe BTZS is the way to go for me. Those JOBOS are waaaay out of my league. I can just hear it now from my wife "You spent HOW MUCH? On WHAT?!"

As per BTZS tubes. No development system is completely in the dark-in all you at least have to load the film into something in the dark and so it is BTZS tubes also. The simplest way with these is fill the caps and put them in the BTZS tray slots to temper them. Then in the dark load each tube and screw them into the cap. Once all 6 are done the lights can go back on for the rest of the processing.

I do it another way slightly. I bought an extra set of caps and as I load the tubes I set them aside with a spare cap. Then I turn the lights on briefly and check to se if everything is kosher and then flick the lights off, transfer the tube to the filed caps and turn the lights back on for the remainder. I have been using these things for a very long time and have made some personal adaptions to the workflow and equipment. NONE of these are necessary but make the process more comfortable for me. These include:

1) extra set of caps
2) DIY "caddy" to place the tubes in once I load them-makes for less fumbling around in the dark (made from 1 1/2" PVC couplings).
3) drilled holes in the tray behind the tube slots to lower the water level and make the tempered water exit by flowing around the caps.
4) glued glow in the dark "dots" on lip of tray behind each of the slots so as I remove each filed cap to screw it into the tube and put it back in the caddy I can see how many I have done-again less fumbling around (also put dots on the front of the caddy too).

To make such a "caddy" see this thread:http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?115042-Agitation-quot-tray-quot-for-BTZS-tubes

Chauncey Walden

10-Feb-2015, 14:29

129109And here is the original taco tank for Kodak film packs.

Peakbagger

10-Feb-2015, 14:36

As per BTZS tubes. No development system is completely in the dark-in all you at least have to load the film into something in the dark and so it is BTZS tubes also. The simplest way with these is fill the caps and put them in the BTZS tray slots to temper them. Then in the dark load each tube and screw them into the cap. Once all 6 are done the lights can go back on for the rest of the processing.

Thanks for that, I guess it is not so bad. Put the film in, put on the filled cap. Agitate in the light. I'll check it out! By the way, how much developer do you used for a 4x5 tube?

Peakbagger

10-Feb-2015, 14:38

129109And here is the original taco tank for Kodak film packs.

Chauncey I've seen mention of those even looked them up on Ebay. I can't figure out how they are used.

Kirk Gittings

10-Feb-2015, 15:03

Thanks for that, I guess it is not so bad. Put the film in, put on the filled cap. Agitate in the light. I'll check it out! By the way, how much developer do you used for a 4x5 tube?

2 ounces. Actually a hair less than the recommended 2 ounces-more like 1 7/8 ounce.

Chauncey Walden

10-Feb-2015, 15:44

Peakbagger, they are loaded with the 12 sheets just like it looks like they would be; folded emulsion side in and slid into the slots ends toward the center. Under the lid is a removable hook that fins into a small hole in the center to lower the filmholder into the tank which I assume was first filled with developer. Then the watertight lid was screwed on (bayonet mount) and everything agitated. The lid opened and the developer poured off and stop added then closed and agitated. Repeat for fix. So not a pure daylight tank, just during agitation. Or maybe they used multiple tanks. I have a second tank with no guts. I have some film packs in the freezer so I'll have to shoot one and give it a try.

Nigel Smith

10-Feb-2015, 16:00

I do rubber band tacos (better be specific now that I've seen that Kodak taco tank!) in a Paterson System 4 tank (snap on lid). I use 900ml of developer.

Now that you have some dud pieces of film (assuming the creased ones are truly stuffed, otherwise sacrifice a new sheet) use them to work out if it's possible to do the taco in your tank. Place them in (short side up) and work out where they sit and where the lid screws down to. Maybe you put them in the wrong orientation (unlikely but worth mentioning?). If you think you might have and the film will fit, fill the tank with water to the level needed to cover the film and measure how much you need.

chrism

10-Feb-2015, 16:12

My limited experience is that tacos floating around in a tank lead to scratches. I have made a wire contraption to let me develop two negatives in a tall steel tank, shown here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?119106-Gadget-for-use-of-steel-tank-with-4x5-film). I have since added a further piece of wire from the same coat hanger in a W-shape to prevent the film from rising up above the level of chemical solution. It works fine.

I have now bought a Mod 54 and tried it out for the first time today. A bit awkward to load, but it worked fine (I used the Paterson swizzle stick for rotary agitation as many posters here have said inversion will dislodge the negatives).

Eiher of these methods will develop a 4x5 negative without any problems associated with rubber bands, hair elastics and tacos. It must be possible to use these latter devices as many have done so without complaint. But for this beginner, I think the two methods I have proven to be successful will be what I use in future.

Chris

Chris

Doremus Scudder

11-Feb-2015, 04:50

Not everyone has a darkroom...

Good point. However, I process in trays in a darkened bathroom in Vienna in a rather small space. I still find it easier and more consistent than most of the daylight options. If I had to do daylight... well I don't have to think about that, do I. I'll let those who do daylight processing help out in that department.

Doremus

jnantz

11-Feb-2015, 05:34

Hi everyone, I decided to take the plunge and develop using a daylight tank, rather than the tray method.

I bought a Paterson 4 tank, it can hold 2 35's or 1 120.
I found a couple of bands that were large enough to curl the 4x5 negatives so that the ends just barely touch.

When I put them in the tank and screw on the lid, I can feel it press down on the negatives. Is this normal?

When I take them out of the tank after dev/stop/wash, there is noticeable crimping happening at the middle top of the negative where it curled.
Note, there is no CREASING, just physical damage at the top and it shows when printed/scanned

Does anyone have any advice on how to avoid this? I tried orienting the negatives so that the "pointy" end was facing the outer wall of the tank, but no joy.
It seems to catch and moves around while I screw on the lid and still gets crimped at the top!
I would really love to get this method to work for me as cheaply as possible (I don't have budget for a new tank and a mod54).

Thanks!

hi

i have done the taco method a few times when i didn't feel like using trays
and putting the film in FR tanks was too much of a pita ...
i never had damage as you described, but i only processed 1 sheet at a time
and didn't agitate the film in the tank. i used a large tank
(one that holds 2 120+1 135 reels ) i decided after a few rolls
that it wasn't worth my effort and just saved my film until i had enough time
to process it another way.
if you are having trouble with your method .. maybe the tanks you have
are too small, and you might consider getting bigger tanks?
or get FR tanks. i know some people hate FR tanks but once you get the hang
of loading them and an agitation scheme they work well ( i am sure a few people on this website
who use them can tell you more ) ... or a jobo system ... or ... get a few trays and a darkened room and process your film that way.
how dark does the room need to be ?
i don't know i guess like the russian saying about how one makes good tea "by adding just enough water" ...

a few years ago i had oodles of film to process when i was visiting family in a small village in france.
no darkroom to use ... so i went into the laundry room ( they had a sink )
mixed my caffenol in a big kitty litter tray in the sink by the free pour method, and in the light of the full moon coming in the window
we processed ( me and my father in law who was my timer :) ) all my sheet film. and it all came out fine.

good luck getting the kinks out of your system!
john

koh303

11-Feb-2015, 05:54

What the heck is wrong with tray processing.

You have to do it in the dark
You have to scratch your negatives
You can only do so many at a time
You waste chemicals
You need lots of space
You have to do it in the dark

Did i say you have to do it in the dark? Using a daylight tank means you can have the lights on. That is much easier.
Since some tanks have a long and proven record of working better then tray processing as far as how even negatives are, there is no reason to use trays, unless you really want to, for some reason, which would raise the question:

Why bother with tray processing, when there are so many excellent alternatives?

Cant afford a tank and reel to do it properly? You most likely can't afford to shoot LF. If you want to spend the money on film, the time on shooting and processing yourself, but skimp on the tank, you will get damaged negatives. For the cost of a digital camera battery, or memory card, or "protection" filter for some redundant zoom lens, you can buy all you need to to make excellent negatives, in full daylight. Why even bother?

koh303

11-Feb-2015, 05:57

I have now bought a Mod 54 and tried it out for the first time today. A bit awkward to load, but it worked fine (I used the Paterson swizzle stick for rotary agitation as many posters here have said inversion will dislodge the negatives).

Only one poster said that, and he has as much experience as you do with the MOD54.

"rotary" processing using the paterson swivel stick is not the best way to get even negatives, but then again, if you moved from processing with a wire in an SS tank, that must be better.

Light Guru

11-Feb-2015, 10:03

StoneNYC

11-Feb-2015, 11:02

129109And here is the original taco tank for Kodak film packs.

That's great! I've never seen that before!

I can see those being useful for the film packs as the film was rather thin and could probably easily fold to such a tight degree, I think that current thicker base materials would be less likely to handle such a tight squeeze, but would still effectively work I would think.

Thanks for sharing.

Doremus Scudder

12-Feb-2015, 02:23

You have to do it in the dark
You have to scratch your negatives
You can only do so many at a time
You waste chemicals
You need lots of space
You have to do it in the dark

Did i say you have to do it in the dark? Using a daylight tank means you can have the lights on. That is much easier.
Since some tanks have a long and proven record of working better then tray processing as far as how even negatives are, there is no reason to use trays, unless you really want to, for some reason, which would raise the question:

Why bother with tray processing, when there are so many excellent alternatives?

Cant afford a tank and reel to do it properly? You most likely can't afford to shoot LF. If you want to spend the money on film, the time on shooting and processing yourself, but skimp on the tank, you will get damaged negatives. For the cost of a digital camera battery, or memory card, or "protection" filter for some redundant zoom lens, you can buy all you need to to make excellent negatives, in full daylight. Why even bother?

At the risk of hijacking the thread and possibly starting a flame war, neither of which I wish to do, I think I should respond... just to be fair.

First, I admit and agree, tray processing isn't for everyone. Some just can't seem to, or don't want to, learn the skill it takes to shuffle negatives without scratching them. Others who swear by tray processing seem to have no problems. Yes, I've scratched a few negatives, but not that many and not lately. Hundreds of negatives have gone through my hands and trays without a scratch since the last one (which was a nice BPF-200 neg that I waited three years for an opportunity to reshoot... I remember it well).

And it's not like all those other processing methods don't have their risks. This thread was started because the OP had damage from the taco method. loading hangers, reels, etc. have risks as well. With trays, the risk is inversely proportional to the skill of the person developing. Other methods are more "automated."

And yes, I can only develop "so many at a time." My limit for one batch is eight negatives, although I prefer six at a time. I usually don't have more than three or four batches to develop in a session (24 negs is two washer loads for me, which is the bottleneck in my processing). On occasion, however, I come back from a trip with 100 or more negatives to be developed and it takes me a couple of days to get through them all. This happens once or twice a year, but then I yearn for a line of large tanks with nitrogen burst agitation... Oh well, not enough space for that.

Wasting chemicals is a non-issue. Six sheets of film in 500ml of developer one-shot seems normal enough and fine with me. Stop and fix get reused. I mix enough fix for a planned session and use it efficiently.

Space for five 5x7 trays isn't all that great either (soak, dev, stop, two fixers). I manage fine in my converted bathroom in Europe using just a small countertop. In the US I have a ten-foot darkroom sink, so don't need to worry about space.

Furthermore, I feel, as do others (I remember reading this in a couple standard references too, just can't remember which now) that tray processing , when done correctly, is one of the best methods for achieving evenly-developed negatives. Again it depends on the skill of the person processing.

One advantage to tray processing is that it is very easy to process negatives with different developing times together in one batch. One just adds the negs that get less time during the process.

Finally, I like the dark. I find it fascinating that I, as a photographer working in a visual medium, need many of the skills of a blind person to practice my craft. I also like low-tech. I only need some chemicals and a few trays and me (and a darkroom, of course) and I'm good to go. No bells, whistles or investment needed.

Best,

Doremus

chrism

12-Feb-2015, 04:36

Only one poster said that, and he has as much experience as you do with the MOD54.

"rotary" processing using the paterson swivel stick is not the best way to get even negatives, but then again, if you moved from processing with a wire in an SS tank, that must be better.

Miaow!

koh303

12-Feb-2015, 07:01

At the risk of hijacking the thread and possibly starting a flame war, neither of which I wish to do, I think I should respond... just to be fair.

First, I admit and agree, tray processing isn't for everyone. Some just can't seem to, or don't want to, learn the skill it takes to shuffle negatives without scratching them. Others who swear by tray processing seem to have no problems. Yes, I've scratched a few negatives, but not that many and not lately. Hundreds of negatives have gone through my hands and trays without a scratch since the last one (which was a nice BPF-200 neg that I waited three years for an opportunity to reshoot... I remember it well).

And it's not like all those other processing methods don't have their risks. This thread was started because the OP had damage from the taco method. loading hangers, reels, etc. have risks as well. With trays, the risk is inversely proportional to the skill of the person developing. Other methods are more "automated."

And yes, I can only develop "so many at a time." My limit for one batch is eight negatives, although I prefer six at a time. I usually don't have more than three or four batches to develop in a session (24 negs is two washer loads for me, which is the bottleneck in my processing). On occasion, however, I come back from a trip with 100 or more negatives to be developed and it takes me a couple of days to get through them all. This happens once or twice a year, but then I yearn for a line of large tanks with nitrogen burst agitation... Oh well, not enough space for that.

Wasting chemicals is a non-issue. Six sheets of film in 500ml of developer one-shot seems normal enough and fine with me. Stop and fix get reused. I mix enough fix for a planned session and use it efficiently.

Space for five 5x7 trays isn't all that great either (soak, dev, stop, two fixers). I manage fine in my converted bathroom in Europe using just a small countertop. In the US I have a ten-foot darkroom sink, so don't need to worry about space.

Furthermore, I feel, as do others (I remember reading this in a couple standard references too, just can't remember which now) that tray processing , when done correctly, is one of the best methods for achieving evenly-developed negatives. Again it depends on the skill of the person processing.

One advantage to tray processing is that it is very easy to process negatives with different developing times together in one batch. One just adds the negs that get less time during the process.

Finally, I like the dark. I find it fascinating that I, as a photographer working in a visual medium, need many of the skills of a blind person to practice my craft. I also like low-tech. I only need some chemicals and a few trays and me (and a darkroom, of course) and I'm good to go. No bells, whistles or investment needed.

Best,

Doremus

Daylight tanks that are actually designed to process sheet film, require no skill to load, no skill to use, and in some cases (Expert drums), albeit more expensive then a 5X7 tray X5, offer by far superior results, regardless of skill.

So the equation is simple:
Tray processing - extensive learning curve (at the end of which a two left handed person might not be capable enough still) - needing a darkroom - skill - skill to do some other thing - no reason to do it when easier, simpler and more sensible options are around - inherent risk of working in the dark, in an uncontrolled and non repeatable environment = not the easiest way to get good, unscratched negatives.
Daylight tank processing + no skill required + no risk involved + easily repeatable process = an easy way to get excellent negatives every time.

The cost of the learning curve, without counting how important are the images you are learning with, in film alone, is easily mitigated with the cost of the most expensive drum option after the second box of film of guaranteed results.

I think processing color films (not in the OP's initial question), is even harder to do with trays, so, why limit yourself to what you might do in the future?

koh303

12-Feb-2015, 07:03

If you scratch negatives while tray possessing that an issue with you not with the tray processing method.

Indeed - with tanks that part of problem is less of an issue as the skill required is very minimal.

Peakbagger

12-Feb-2015, 09:40

I just want to be clear that I have nothing against tray processing, I'm pretty sure I can make my small bathroom work for it. I haven't ruled it out. However, I've got a paterson and I've seen people get good results with it for 4x5 and dang it all to heck I want that too! heh.

Additionally, my 7 year old likes to hang out with me when I do it. She sets timers, hands beakers to me, etc. It's kind of fun that way and in the process I'm exposing her to film photography. It's less fun when she can't see what I'm doing. Maybe she'll keep these memories and who knows, perhaps when she's older she'll be the one to bring film back to the masses. Our children will save the universe!

The BTZS tubes sound more appealing the more I think about it. The frugal side of me likes that it doesn't use that much developer. 60 ml vs 800 ml developer is very appealing. Anyways, I have some new ideas for the taco method that I'll implement this weekend. If they don't pan out, then I'll try BTZS or tray. Some good info in this thread. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to it.

alavergh

12-Feb-2015, 09:41

I haven't tried the taco method, but from somebody who has started shooting large format much more during the last year, I've gone through between 200 and 500 sheets. I have probably scratched...uh....less than 5. I am 30 years old, and I'm also a flutist and I have good typing skills. It may be just that I'm good with my fingers. Still, if you can successfully load film into 4x5 holders, you can probably learn to do tray processing just fine. Before I had blacked out the windows in a spare bedroom, I did it in an interior bathroom with a big white black-out sheet and a towel. I set up a card table partially in the tub/shower and almost over top of the toilet. I sat in a metal chair, and stuck my gralab black box timer under the card table. I use an 8x10 tray to pre-soak, 3 5x7 trays for dev/stop/fix, and then I wash in an 8x10 tray as well. I usually stick to 4 negatives at a time because any more, I can't shuffle through them fast enough to keep my agitations to 15 seconds, which is my standard. Plus, When I wash them, 4 fit nicely into an 8x10 tray. I can put my fingers in between the negatives and slosh the water around a bit. 500mL of solution for developer, and then you can actually use less stop and fixer.

OP, if you can get a hold of some 5x7 trays, I would give it a shot with 2 negatives at a time (a single film holder).

Somebody mentioned limiting yourself to black and white if you use trays. Doesn't that mean you're also limiting yourself to 4x5 unless you pony-up for jobo?

If you can give trays a try, there's at least one good video on youtube...except the guy does tend to talk....a lot.

alavergh

12-Feb-2015, 09:44

Additionally, my 7 year old likes to hang out with me when I do it. She sets timers, hands beakers to me, etc. It's kind of fun that way and in the process I'm exposing her to film photography. It's less fun when she can't see what I'm doing. Maybe she'll keep these memories and who knows, perhaps when she's older she'll be the one to bring film back to the masses. Our children will save the universe!

I don't have any children yet, but if I did, and I got that quality time, I'd put up with damaged negatives of paying for a different system/tank. That's cool

Peakbagger

12-Feb-2015, 09:45

hi

i know some people hate FR tanks but once you get the hang
of loading them and an agitation scheme they work well ( i am sure a few people on this website
who use them can tell you more ) ... or a jobo system ... or ... get a few trays and a darkened room and process your film that way.
how dark does the room need to be ?

john

That's a very good question, how dark DOES a room need to be? Can you have a just a little light coming through? I've always thought it was supposed to photon free, but really what are the tolerances?

jnantz

12-Feb-2015, 10:15

That's a very good question, how dark DOES a room need to be? Can you have a just a little light coming through? I've always thought it was supposed to photon free, but really what are the tolerances?

you got me, i have no idea !

at the very least, i would use a very dark room and prepare for the worst .
and do things "by the book" ...
the internet is full of people that dispense advice and have
very little or no experience in the advice they are dispensing ..
( they are just parrots ) this is good, and this is bad at the same time.
its good because sometimes the advice is spot-on and you can thank
then for parroting the right advice, it is bad because often times
the advisors have no idea what they are talking about is nonsense ..
its unfortunate but true ...
at least in the "old days" there was an editor and fact checker to assure
what was said was fit to print ... nowadays anything seems to be fit to post ..

12-Feb-2015, 11:02

Additionally, my 7 year old likes to hang out with me when I do it. She sets timers, hands beakers to me, etc. It's kind of fun that way and in the process I'm exposing her to film photography. It's less fun when she can't see what I'm doing. Maybe she'll keep these memories and who knows, perhaps when she's older she'll be the one to bring film back to the masses. Our children will save the universe!

My girls love playing in the colored pre-soak water while I develop film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUkhhHR6Xfk
I usually use a combiplan for 4x5, but have a mod54 that works fine too. Tray for larger sizes.

Nigel Smith

12-Feb-2015, 16:36

This thread was started because the OP had damage from the taco method.

Yep, but it doesn't seem like the OP actually checked their tank was suitable but was led by posts that indicated it would be. Seems not all 2 spool Paterson tanks were made equal.

I know when I first tried tacos (after deciding trays weren't for me) I tested a sheet in the tank to see what was going to happen (how the rubber bands sat, etc) and to measure how much liquid I was going to need. I have noticed the lines of anti-haelation backing that don't get disolved (happens on some films) as mentioned above so move the rubber bands half way through the fixer (seems to work better than during the wash). While my tacos are developing/fixing (15mins or so) I do lots of little jobs around the darkroom.

Guess we should agree, that people use many methods successfully.

Doremus Scudder

15-Feb-2015, 04:41

That's a very good question, how dark DOES a room need to be? Can you have a just a little light coming through? I've always thought it was supposed to photon free, but really what are the tolerances?

I'm speaking from experience here.

For developing slower films in trays, your darkroom needs to be really dark. No photons would be ideal and it's not all that hard to achieve. Even GraLab luminous dials and dim LED readouts on timers can fog film if too close to the film developing tray. I keep things at a distance and baffle the dials/readouts so I can see them but the film can't

A very little light from a stray crack, e.g., under the door, around a frame in a blacked-out window, etc., can be okay if the film can't "see" it and it gets absorbed by walls, etc. before reflecting onto the film in the tray. That said, I've fogged film before with just the tiniest bit of light seeping in around a loose piece of lightproof tape on a window. Fogging by stray light is a time/intensity thing just like in-camera exposure. What you can get by with for 5 minutes may be way too much for a 15-minute developing time. Also, a slight bit of overall fog can go unnoticed, but will affect your shadow separation and contrast when getting around to printing (just like any overall fog).

Try to get your darkroom as dark as possible. To check things, put a mirror in the tray you're going to develop in, turn out the darkroom lights and let your eyes adjust (15+ minutes is best, but wait at least 10) and then examine the darkroom for light leaks and the mirror in the tray from all angles for reflections. Fix what you can and adjust positions/baffling to keep the tray as much in the dark as possible and then do a test run or two.

... Guess we should agree, that people use many methods successfully.

Nigel,

Of course! I never intended to bad-mouth any method of developing and I don't think I have. I just wanted to point out that tray developing is time-tested and works just fine for many, me included. It is a viable option and shouldn't be ruled out by a vocal few who never developed or don't have the skill to tray develop without scratching. Any method that gets you undamaged, evenly-developed negatives in the amount and time you need is great. I just hate to see beginners scared away from tray developing by those who seem to have an agenda and want to remove it from the list of possibilities. It's a low-tech and inexpensive way to try out black-and-white LF and works fine for many advanced and master photographers.

Personally, I like being skillful and like developing different skill sets. For those who prefer developing methods that "require no skill" there are lots of possibilities.

Best,

Doremus

walbergb

15-Feb-2015, 19:29

My 2 cents worth: a homemade slosher (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/109450-tray-processing.html). Since that post I've made a slight modification because the glue doesn't hold forever. I cut the "c" pieces a little thicker, drilled holes in the ends and through the tray for pins (brad nail cutoffs), and used epoxy to glue the pieces in place. You still have to work in the dark, but very little space is required.

kintatsu

16-Feb-2015, 01:27

For me, it's trays. My first 2 attempts with the taco method ruined 3 negatives out of the 4 I did.

I use Ziploc food storage trays for my tray, they're 6 inches wide by 12 inches long and 6 inches deep. I use my toilet in a 4 foot by 8-foot bathroom as my bench, with one tray for water in the sink, the active solution (developer or fixer) on the toilet, and inactive on the floor to be swapped out. I've only scratched one negative in the tray. I do one sheet at a time, as I only do 4 during a session and an hour isn't that long. As for cost, 8ml HC-110 per half-liter solution, and you see that 59 batches can be made from one pint. That's 236 sheets of 4x5 or 59 sheet 8x10 per pint.

I read a lot before starting, which helped. Books like AA's and sites like this make it far easier to figure out. For instance, tray development needs more agitation than tank, therefore a lower dilution. For FP4+, 1/2-liter dilution H for 9 minutes gives me great results. The first minute is agitation, then 1 tip every 10 seconds. A metronome provides timing, and an egg timer provides a reminder that time's up. Another nice aspect is being able to change your development + or – by changing time or agitation without upsetting your overall process.

When I first started contact printing my 4x5s, I used a flash, filtered with a Rosco gel, to provide the light, and got really good prints. My point is that, use what you're comfortable doing. Even using half-baked stuff like I do, gets the job done. It doesn't have to be expensive or fancy, it just has to work.