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Peter Yeti
8-Feb-2015, 17:44
According to ads from the late 1930s, rim set compurs also came in sizes 0s and 1s besides the more common sizes 0 and 1. Does anyone here know the thread dimensions of those "s" shutters, especially the 0s? I searched and searched but couldn't find anything. Any info would be highly appreciated.

Peter

Dan Fromm
8-Feb-2015, 18:26
Peter, have you looked here: http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/pratique/Les_obturateurs_centraux.html?

Benoit's list is pretty complete, says nothing about 0s and 1s Compurs. If you have any in hand and later shutters without the "s", why don't you try swapping cells?

I just checked P-H Pont's Compur chronology. He suggests that the suffix "s" indicates that the shutter has a self-timer.

Peter Yeti
8-Feb-2015, 18:59
Thank you for the interesting link, Dan. But as you say, nothing about the 0s or 1s. If I had such a shutter at hand, I wouldn't ask, I simply would measure.

There was an early Compound shutter, a tad bit larger than the standard Compur 0. The cell threads were 31.3mm rather than 29.5mm (and rather than the 30.7mm Benoit is stating for the Compound, that's the inner diameter of the shutter thread). Since both Compound and Compur were made by Friedrich Deckel Munich, I wonder if the 0s is the size of the Compound? I also have a Bausch&Lomb Automat shutter of the same dimensions.

Any more info?

Peter

Xipho
12-Jul-2015, 23:30
I think I have two Size 0s Rim shutters...

The look like normal 0 from there front outer dimensions, but the rear lens is smaller (maybe 27?) and the rear mount is also smaller, about 29mm i guess.
One shutter is from a Voigtländer 6x9 Roll Film Camera (with Heliar), the other from a Zeiss Ikon Maximar 207/3 with a Tessar.
This might be the 0s size, but it is only my guess...

IanG
13-Jul-2015, 00:56
There's some none standard Dial set Compurs but the Rimset #0 & #1 are quite standard unless they have inserts to reduce the diameter which is far more common with Pronto/Prontor shutters than Compur.

One problem is amongst the shutters I own are some Compur #0s and #1s, or put another way Compur #0 & #1 shutters as the "s" adds the plural in English. I have a lot of BJP Almanac and other adverts for Compur shutters in the 30's and as Dan says I've not seen variations of the rimset #0 & #1 listed.

Ian

Xipho
13-Jul-2015, 06:41
today i found a scan of a Schneider Advertisment, in German, where some lenses, esp the 4.5/105 and 130 are listed with the 0s shutter.

It is existing, and has nothing to to with an english plural.!
And it has no reduction inserts, as the outhet mount diameter is only 29!

here:

http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/005cZQ

(the book scans)

IanG
13-Jul-2015, 08:31
You can't take that as their being a different size, all the lenses in standard sized #0 & #1 are listed as being in 0s or 1s shutters by Schneider (pre-WWII rimset) and they are standard sizes. As Dan pointed out the "s" is most likely to indicate it has a self timer.

Ian

Xipho
13-Jul-2015, 08:38
A real size 0 lens has front and back same size, thes lenses definitely have a smaller rear element, that defines 0s (small)
There were no compur with self timers in the 1930s for Lf and plate cameras...

I have two 0s shutters here, they are for real. But from the front side they look like a Common size 0.

Schneider is a "serious" company, so if they list lenses for 0s Shutter, it exists.
The list from schneider is only for the triplet radionar, so they were all made for s-shutters maybe that the smaller mount can be fitted to more (smaller and cheaper) cameras....

just buy a Maximar 207/3 and you get a 0s compur Rim Set shutter....

IanG
13-Jul-2015, 10:11
I looked at a complete Schneider catalogue and EVERY #0 and #1 shuttered lens is listed as either a 0s or a 1s and many are lenses that are always in regular sized shutters. The S isn't a different size with these shutters.

There's no mystery S sizes, a 1931 Voigtlander advert clears that up, it states the "Compur S" is identical to the new model Compur (rimset) shutters with "a self-releasing device incorporated, in other words a delayed action.

Only the #0 & 1#1 sizes were available as Compur S.

136797

Ian

Xipho
13-Jul-2015, 14:05
thank you for your info about the self-timer, have to check if my shitters have this feature, did not know it...

This shutter is a Compur S (large S) In the lens lists there small letters used 0s, 1s

So I think S is the signature for the timer, which is not incorporated in the normal compur Rim Set, and s is the signature for the smaller rear mount.
If it stands here that the "S" is only in sizes 0 and 1, (excluding 00 and 2,3) there is nothing said that the shutter is not made in the symmetric and in the unsymmetric type.

The lenses in the catalougues are delivered without shutters, why should Schneider then label the size with a "S" shutter type when there are compur ans compur S existing?
The labels 0,1,0s and 1s are only size labels, as there were also other shutters of this sizes and not only compur S....

Obviously there are a lot of lenses existing that have the smaller back mount (including the famous 4.4/105 Tessar) so compur had to make shutter where this lenses fit, because they had to sell their shutters.

Anyway, my unsymmetric 0 shutters exist and I dont think that I am rich now because I own the only two existing prototypes... They even make so e problems because they dont fit very well in a size 0 lens plate, as the hole is too big for the shutter.

Post-1945, only the normal symmetric sizes 00,0,1,3 were made...

this is one of my 0s? shutters, backside photo can be provided next week



https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3824/19537715441_90b0f3ae7d_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/vLtU7M)K5HAVoigtl\'e4nder Heliar - Macro Test Old Lenses -Sonnar (https://flic.kr/p/vLtU7M) by xipho68 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/xipho68/), auf Flickr}

IanG
14-Jul-2015, 02:07
You're confusing yourself.

It's purely how lens manufacturers describe the shutters. Voigtlander clearly state they use Compur #0 & #1 S shutters but in the price list call them 0 & 1 shutters with self releases. Schneider call them Compur 0S & 1S. In the Photonet page for the Radionar you linked to the Self release can be seen as with your own lens.

Ian

Xipho
14-Jul-2015, 03:44
Bit the problem is not self timer or not, but existing shutters that do not fit into the 0 and 1 standard scheme because of a smaller real mount thread...

Dan Fromm
14-Jul-2015, 04:21
Bit the problem is not self timer or not, but existing shutters that do not fit into the 0 and 1 standard scheme because of a smaller real mount thread...

No, the problem is that you call shutters that don't conform to the #0 and #1 standards #0 and #1. Where did you find the names (#0, #1) you apply to your non-standard shutters?

Xipho
14-Jul-2015, 05:43
No, the problem is that you call shutters that don't conform to the #0 and #1 standards #0 and #1. Where did you find the names (#0, #1) you apply to your non-standard shutters?

I call them 0s and 1s as done so by the TO (and I think Schneider) and unless we know better by old sources...

I think it is important to know that they exist, as the mount thread ist smaller than 0 I thougt they must be 00 and wondered why they dont fit into a 00 plate (and are wobbling around in a 0 plate...).
All compur net sources mainly deal with post 1945 shutters where clearly only 00,1,3 exist.

And if you buy a old lens for use in another shutter, you have to be aware of the existing old shutter sizes.

plaubel
14-Jul-2015, 07:06
I call them 0s and 1s as done so by the TO (and I think Schneider) and unless we know better by old sources...



Can I have a look at these old sources, please?

Cheers,
Ritchie

IanG
14-Jul-2015, 11:29
Schneider only used the 0S and 1S shutters after their release up to their switch to th faster top speed Compur Rapid, and later post war Synchro Compur. The only difference between the 0S and 1S is the Self release and they are standard #0 & #1 fit.

There are NO non standard Compurs in pre-WWII Schneider catalogues.

When Compur switched from the Dial-set to Rimset shutters they wanted to standardise the shutter sizes as it had been expensive making non standard sizes for some lenses.

Ian

Xipho
14-Jul-2015, 23:19
Can I have a look at these old sources, please?

Cheers,
Ritchie

I am searching....

Fact is that there are "seem to be size 0"-Rim Set Compur shutters that are undistinguishable from a normal size 0 front from the front (when mounted), but have a smaller rear mount (inbetween the 25mm of a #00 and the 32.5mm of a #0. (about 29 or 29.5)

Can you agree that these shutters exist? (whatever their official naming by Deckel might have been)

And if it was used by the big companies Voigtländer and Zeiss ikon in reputable cameras like the Maximar thy cant be that exotic...
I think this "special baby zero" is maybe only with zero shutters, they might not exist in Size 1 shutters... ?

What I dont get: When Schneider does a list for their lenses, which can and will be used with various shutters (especially the cheap rodinar triplet will not have gotten an expensive compur all the time) why should they label the SIZE of their lenses with a self timer feature of one single shutter???

The only real help are not lensmakers lists, but original Deckel listings...

IanG
15-Jul-2015, 00:34
In the pre-WWII Schneider catalogues the company show the shutter sizes of the Compur and Compound shutters. Even though the illustrations are with Compur shutters they don't specify what shutters rather saying the the Shutter cells are: screwed to fit all normal types of shutters.

Ian

plaubel
15-Jul-2015, 14:06
Can you agree that these shutters exist? (whatever their official naming by Deckel might have been)



I own 6 small Compur shutters which are so different, that I believe nearly everything concerning the old shutters.
All threads are identical, but it wasn't able to interchange a 135 Tessar with a 135 Xenar, for example, because of the different barrels.
But this may not help Peter.

Peter, except the knowledge of the thread of old shutters, do you have a special "task" which requires the exactly thread?

Ritchie

Xipho
15-Jul-2015, 22:06
may be the case with Schneider, I dont have a schneider lens with a smaller back part, but at least Voigtländer an Zeiss Jena made lenses for the 0-small shutter. And Zeiss Jena was certainly the leading company in these days...

Xipho
17-Jul-2015, 14:38
Schneider only used the 0S and 1S shutters after their release up to their switch to th faster top speed Compur Rapid, and later post war Synchro Compur. The only difference between the 0S and 1S is the Self release and they are standard #0 & #1 fit.

There are NO non standard Compurs in pre-WWII Schneider catalogues.


When Compur switched from the Dial-set to Rimset shutters they wanted to standardise the shutter sizes as it had been expensive making non standard sizes for some lenses.

Ian

today I got a Schneider Xenar 1:4.4/105 Serial 410093 (1931) in a rim set compur (a non self timed) in which is also unsymmetrical in both threads as my other prewar 105mm lenses.

So it seem in these days all 105mm lenses were standard front zero, back smaller for the mystry "0-nonzero" compur