Want a monorail - which one?

[moltogordo]

I have a Linhof Color, and I like it - it's small, light and a decent monorail for a field camera. Here's a shot of it:

http://www.pbase.com/moltogordo/image/134786979.jpg


It doesn't have a great range of movements, though, and I'm interested in picking up a used monorail for indoor tabletop work and even portraiture. Any suggestions? I've glanced at the Horseman L45, the Toyo G series, the Cambos; might even be interested in something older and historic. I'd like to put a limit of about 300 US on my purchase, although I'd go a bit higher if the deal was right.

Any suggestions?

[Old-N-Feeble]

For studio use I can't imagine anything being better than a Toyo GII GX or Robos. They're far too heavy for field use though.

[Ari]

I love that Linhof, but I never liked having to remove then replace a standard from the rail in order to focus a WA.

$300 should get you a Toyo G in nice condition with a few extras.
They are extremely well-built, rigid, and have all the movements you need.
A monorail case will allow you to use it in the field.

[Peter Lewin]

A Sinar F or F2 might be within your price range, and the virtue of the Sinar system is that everything is interchangeable, so you can upgrade the F to a "C" or "P" or from 4x5 to 8x10, etc. Sinar parts are pretty widely available and cost effective.

[fishbulb]

Sinar F2 can be had for that much, although it will be well used. I wouldn't buy an F or F1 due to the front standard. I own an F and had to upgrade the front standard when the ancient plastic broke (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?119785-Frankensinar-upgrading-the-F-F1-front-standard). F2 is much better, and in general Sinar is a super flexible monorail system with a lot of thought put into the design of things..

Keh recently had a 'bgn' F2 for about $300 but it sold already it looks like.

[Jeff Dexheimer]

I have used a sinar f2, Cambo and a horseman 450. As long as it is studio work, I recommend the horseman.

[toyotadesigner]

I'd suggest an Arca Swiss F Line, but it will cost you a lot more than your budget limit. However, it will give you the precision you need for your studio work.

[John Kasaian]

You should be able to find a Graphic View II or Calumet 400 for well under half your budget.

[Alan Gales]

I paid for $500.00 for my Sinar P with a Schneider 210 lens a few years ago. You might be able to find one for $400.00 or less without a lens. The P is really nice as it has geared movements. It is heavy which I find an advantage when shooting because if you accidently bump it, the camera isn't as inclined to move. You do need to mount it on a heavy tripod. If you need one, Majestics are cheap.

[Jim Jones]

You should be able to find a Graphic View II or Calumet 400 for well under half your budget.

Yes, indeed. Either, or a Burke & James monorail, will do about anything any of the more sophisticated and expensive cameras can. Inexpensive accessories are available for these cameras, especially for the Calumet 400, leaving money for lenses and lighting.

[John Layton]

For a monorail that is (somewhat) old and historic, while still booting it out of the park and then some, you should really look at a Sinar Norma.

[Drew Wiley]

The sheer abundance of Sinar gear, interchangeability of components, and great versatility of the cumulative system makes it awfully tempting. Just realize the P and X cameras will be much heavier than F's, and that condition is everything with old gear. Don't buy the old entry level F+ because it has an inferior front standard. But I must confess that I've been converted to the original Sinar Norma, which does accept all my later Sinar accessories. I prefer the way it handles in
the field, but it does not have the yaw-free features of the F, C, and P series which came afterwards, which can indeed be useful with tabletop studio applications
where there camera is pointed downward in relation to an even plane.

[Luis-F-S]

Hard to beat a Sinar F2. I have three; two for parts and extra bellows! L

[moltogordo]

Hard to beat a Sinar F2. I have three; two for parts and extra bellows! L

A real concerted case has been made for a Sinar F2 - I'm definitely interested. Now all I need is the patience!:D

I have two lenses and only need to purchase a 210, so I guess saving up a couple of hundred extra would be the thing to do. What I find attractive about this idea is that I wouldn't mind trying my hand at 5x7 or 8x10 one day!

Thanks for all your input, guys!!

[Peter Lewin]

I was curious, so I looked over on the KEH.com website. They have a Sinar F body for sale for $149 in what they call "excellent" (ex) condition. I have seen the number of posts warning against the early "F" (as opposed to the later F1 and F2) bodies because of the weaker front standard. On the other hand, I owned an early "F" and never had a problem, but admittedly I bought it new, and sold it before I may have had problems (an earlier post mentioned the plastic failing). On the other hand, since parts are reasonably available, it would be one way to get into the system, and upgrade/replace parts as needed. Understand that I have no connection with KEH, nor do I know anything about the particular example they are selling. My point is that the cameras come up with some frequency, and it is up to you what model you hold out for. I also looked (you know, curiosity!) at eBay, and they had quite a few F2s available, but all at much higher ($600-$800) prices.

[Ari]

You are already set on the Sinar, but I'd like to point out that the Toyo G/GII series are fully modular as well, offering easy 5x7 and 8x10 compatibility.
That said, you can't go wrong with either system, the important thing is to get out there and burn film.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Yes, the Toyo 45G series are built like armored tanks, have all geared movements and are completely modular. If you find a nice 45GX or Robos in your price range you can't go wrong. If you don't need base tilt then a 45G or 45GII are fantastic too and are usually less pricey.

[moltogordo]

You are already set on the Sinar, but I'd like to point out that the Toyo G/GII series are fully modular as well, offering easy 5x7 and 8x10 compatibility.
That said, you can't go wrong with either system, the important thing is to get out there and burn film.

Not set on the Sinar - the Toyo G also has gone up a step with the 5x7 or 8x10 conversion possibilities.


While I'm saving up for the right time and deal, I'll certainly be burning up film!! As a matter of fact, I present to you my first large format shot in over 8 years. The negative is excellent, but this is a very poor scan from a flatbed scanner. I did a couple of shoots this week in both my music studio and in a wilderness area. I've developed the negatives (all shot on my Linhof shown in this post, with the Super Rollex 6x7 rollfilm back). I almost always scan a print (I'm an avid printer, and simply like doing it that way), but haven't had any darkroom time this month. So I made this lousy scan - had problems with contrast and dirt on the scanner, and it's not my best processing job, but I was pretty excited to finally get some images from the Linhof after 8 years on the darkside.

While I'm saving dough, this should be a great time to get to know the Linhof, my Rollex and 6x9 Horseman backs, and the 10 Fidelity holders I have in the basement, eh? :D After all, this is good equipment and I'm lucky to have it. I'm also waiting on a box each of Foma 200 and 400 film, although I do have about 20 sheets of TMax 100 and about the same of HP5 buried in the freezer somewhere.

This is Gladys, my trombone student, and the Principal Trombonist in the Northern Orchestra of British Columbia, which I conduct. The picture was shot on my Linhof Color Kardan, 150mm Zeiss f4.5 Linhof Select, Linhof Rollex 6x7 back, HP5 film in HC110 at 1:63, 11 minutes. 1/10th at f5.6


http://www.pbase.com/image/159064448.jpg

[Jim Jones]

Moltogordo -- If a 5x7 or larger camera is a possibility, starting with a modest 4x5 and adding the larger camera later seems more practical than starting with a camera that can be converted. Anyone who may own more than one LF camera should consider what lens boards may be used directly or with adaptors on all their cameras.

[Dan Fromm]

Jim, some monorail systems, for example Cambo, use the same front standard for 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10. To convert, say, a 4x5er to a larger size replace the 4x5 bellows with a tapered bellows (one end fits a 4x5 standard, the other fits the larger size) and one and the 4x5 rear standard with one of the larger size. All sizes use the same boards, same compendium hood, same rails, same tripod mounting block, ... I don't know whether the Sinar system does the same.

In theory this approach gives economies but I'm not convinced.

[Alan Gales]

Jim, some monorail systems, for example Cambo, use the same front standard for 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10. To convert, say, a 4x5er to a larger size replace the 4x5 bellows with a tapered bellows (one end fits a 4x5 standard, the other fits the larger size) and one and the 4x5 rear standard with one of the larger size. All sizes use the same boards, same compendium hood, same rails, same tripod mounting block, ... I don't know whether the Sinar system does the same.

In theory this approach gives economies but I'm not convinced.

Dan, I'm no Sinar expert but I do know on the P and P2 you have a bearer and a standard. The rear standard holds the ground glass. The rear bearer attaches to the rail and has the controls. On the P and P2 there are a couple different 8x10 standards that you can swap out on the 4x5 bearer. I'm not sure the differences between the two. In addition there is also a heavy duty 8x10 bearer.

So to answer your question, yes, the front standard and bearer stay the same. You just swap out the rear and the bellows.

[fishbulb]

Yeah there aren't that many economies to be had by buying the same brand for both cameras but there are a few. For example with Sinar, if you have a 4x5 and 8x10 they can share lens boards, rails, rail attachments, and a variety of Sinar accessories that few use (filter system, shutter system etc). However, the critical parts of the 4x5 and 8x10 are different - different front and rear standards, different bellows. So at the end you still buy two cameras - a 4x5 and an 8x10 - but at least you don't have to change lens boards when swapping lenses back and forth between them.

So for example, some people think, "oh I'll just buy an 8x10 rear standard and bellows for my 4x5" but then you have a front standard on your 8x10 that doesn't have enough range of movement and sits too low. So you have to be careful buying an 8x10 that comes from a system like Sinar (or Toyo, or many others) where it may have been cobbled together and has the wrong front standard.

[Alan Gales]

fishbulb reminded me that there is another front bearer for use with 8x10 with more rise.

It can get confusing and you do have to be careful when buying on Ebay.

[Ari]

Interesting; I know from my own experience that Toyo uses the same front standard regardless of format.
Only bellows and rear standards get swapped out.

[Alan Gales]

Interesting; I know from my own experience that Toyo uses the same front standard regardless of format.
Only bellows and rear standards get swapped out.

You can use the 4x5 front standard with the 8x10 rear. It's fine for portraiture. You won't have any front rise.

Sinar had all these options which made sense back in the day. Today on the used market you are better off just buying a complete 8x10 camera if you want to shoot 8x10. I have seen the rear 8x10 standard conversions for my 4x5 camera on Ebay. They want a pretty penny for them.

[Old-N-Feeble]

The Toyo system is completely modular and interchangeable. Everything from the G, GII, GX and Robos models from 4x5 through 8x10 interchange. You may need to adjust rise/fall to compensate but that's a non-issue given the generous movements available. Even most of the components and accessories from some earlier models interchange. For studio use I wouldn't trade a 45GX or Robos for anything... no matter how pricey the replacement might be.

BTW, I bought a complete and nearly mint 45GX a couple years ago for $350 delivered to my door. I can't remember if this was from KEH or MPEX.

[Alan Gales]

One cool thing about the Sinars, Toyos, Cambos and Calumets is that they all made reduction boards which allowed you to use the smaller Technika lens boards.

[Old-N-Feeble]

^^^ I don't know about the others but there are adapter boards for Graflex Graphic to Toyo boards plus Horseman, Sinar and others I can't remember at the moment.

[moltogordo]

One cool thing about the Sinars, Toyos, Cambos and Calumets is that they all made reduction boards which allowed you to use the smaller Technika lens boards.

Yeah . . . when looking at them, doesn't it make you want to own them all?? :D

[Alan Gales]

My first 4x5 was a Cambo SC. I have bought and sold monorail outfits to help fund my hobby. I have owned the Cambo Master, Legend and others. I have also owned a Calumet model or two. I currently own a Sinar P and parted out an F once.

I still have not owned an Arca Swiss, Linhoff or Toyo. I would also like to play with a Sinar Norma. To me the Norma is the best looking. It's just a beautiful piece of industrial engineering.

So to answer your question, yes, it does make you want to own them all. :cool:

[Drew Wiley]

The Sinar IS completely interchangeable, modular. They (C. Koch) invented that concept. Toyo and others merely copied the idea, trying to figure out how to wiggle around the key Sinar patents, but in nowhere near the range of options. But this does not mean that all things are created equal after you cobble together a random arrangement. You can take a Sinar F 4x5 front standard and elevate into position suitable for an 8x10 rear standard, but that doesn't mean it will hold a potentially heavy 8x10 lens equally to a dedicated 8x10 front standard. The problem you get with places like eBay is that sometimes people sell mismatched systems out of leftovers, without accurately describing what is involved. Sure it all fits and functions together; but does it do so in the manner which most benefits your own needs? And at today's discounted pricing, is it worthwhile tobuy a particular component when an entire new camera might cost little more, or even less?

[Daniel Unkefer]

Somewhat Old & Historic?

I'd say without doubt the Sinar Norma.

And there is a Norma Technika Adapter board.

[Drew Wiley]

Yes. Norma has stayed beautiful all these years. I have a date with her tomorrow. She's already in the backpack. My favorite Sinar.