Beginner advice on movements/bulk/field v. mono

[Matt Powell]

I've been looking deeper into purchasing my first 4x5 camera for a couple of weeks, thought I'd ask for a little advice in narrowing my focus. I'll be working primarily on location, with wide to normal lenses (150mm at the longest end, 75 or 90 at the short if workable), in a sort of general-purpose usage. Little or no landscape, some architectural (but not as a business or professional need), mostly 'art'/portraiture/etc..

Ideally, I'd buy a monorail for the widest range of movement, but my only experience with 4x5 has been a loaned Calumet 4x5 - between the focusing cloth, Texas humidity and bulky case I'm a little worried about that route. A field camera would be ideal for what I want to do (a camera to carry with me on road trips and around the area), but I'm worried that limited movements would make it difficult to narrow focus as much as I'd like for certain artsy images.

Bulk is much more of a concern than weight, I won't be hiking for miles and hours but I hated the inconvenience and problems of the Cadet package. My budget is roughly $1000, give or take, I'm not looking to jump into anything immediately.

I'm also not sure exactly how the difference in movement between a Shen-Hao field, a Badger M2/Toho FC-45X and normal monorail (ToyoView 45CX or similar) alters final usability in terms of images. How limiting are limited movements? Is it feasible to wander around an area (drive/walk) with one of the intermediate monorails (the Badger or a Sinar F1)? How much meaningful movement is lost with a Shen-Hao compared to a FC-45x/M2?

Recommendations for literature that covers this sort of question - illustrated differences in movements, etc. would also be highly appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt Powell

[Nick_3536]

If you're working out of a car then you could haul anything. If the area isn't too wild then you could get yourself a cart and pull/push the stuff.

Portraits aren't big users of movements.


http://www.fiberq.com/cam/gundlach/home.htm (http://www.fiberq.com/cam/gundlach/home.htm)

That's an old portrait camera. Not exactly a lot of movements.

Now look at it from the other end. Lenses with a lot of movements tend to be bigger and more expensive.

Best thing I can say is borrow/rent a field camera and see. Or even buy a cheap press camera like my B&J. Spend some time with it and figure out what sort of movements you want. Spending some money on the cheaper cameras will let you make your mistakes without wasting a lot of money. Maybe try a Calumet CC400. Very cheap on the used market. Figure out what you hate/like about it.

You might want a longer lens for portraits. The lenght of the bellows on the Shen Hao might be more of an issue.

[Steve Sherman]

Matt,

I have been roaming the western landscape for near 25 years. The first ten years or so with a Meridian 4X5 model "B" which has 4" square lens boards. The camera is a wonderful inexpensive copy of the Linhof Tecknica. It is a metal folding press type camera. The camera on the used market has recently risen to $500.00+ because it is all you could hope for as far as user freindly and limited budget. The camera has all the movements you will ever need in the field. Radical movements which you see in camera advertisments are never needed excepting the rare table top shot, never in the field. I have gotten myself in very tight areas in remote canyons and you will run out of lens covering power before you will approach the limits of the camera's movements.

You indicate you would like to use shorter lens which require even less movements than longer lens. The Meridian has a drop down bed which allows a 90mm lens to be used. The short coming of the 90mm on this camera is it is difficult to get much rise out of the lens board. My 90mm lens was mounted off center on the lens board in an effort to offset that problem.

I realize I am pushing the Meridian, reason is it affordable and has all the movemnets you could hope for in the field. The simply fact is any field camera will have more movements than you could ever need in the field until you begin to approach the limits of the bellows length.

Happy hunting!

[jerry brodkey]

I think you will be surprised at how little movement you will actually need, particularly

if you are doing things like portraits or wider angle shots. Perhaps font rise

will be your most extreme movement if you are doing architecture. For landscapes probably some

front tilt of small degree will be needed which most cameras will easily provide. Remember that a lot

of movements are designed to improve sharpness by changing the main plane of focus. General purpose doesn't need

much of that and wide angle lenses have wider depth of field anyway. Portraiture doesn't really need it at all unless

you are incorporating the person into a structure that you want to be in focus. I think your best bet is to go with a

standard flat bed field camera but just make sure that it has enough bellows draw. If you are really interested

in portraits you will probably need some longer lenses in the future and may want the longer bellows.

Before settling on a particular camera, give some consideration as to how you will carry it around and how easy it is

to set up. Most people put all their stuff in a backpack, not a case. Also a monorail is harder to set up than a field camera.

If you are not interested in landscapes, why do you want 75 or 90mm lenses?

Jerry

[Frank Petronio]

Even the wooden folding cameras will probably provide plenty of movements for your needs, so I would choose based on bulk, price, and personal preference. You can always buy a Shen-Hao (or almost anything else) and resell it on eBay for nearly what you paid for it, if you want to try something else - a nice way to experiment (although spouses will think you are nuts.)

If I was aiming for a middle level camera, I would consider used Linhof Technika IVs; Wista VX or SP metal folding cameras, the METAL Toyo folders, the older Arca-Swiss monotails, or a clean Sinar Norma (older model than the F - very well made and perhaps the best value.) The lightweight Badger and Toho models are more specialized lightweights, and may not be the best models to learn on or to use as your only camera.

Discussions of whether to get a box or monorail abound here - both are good choices, and you should probably try them before deciding.

The old Calumet is a good camera, but the case does get in the way. Sorry, but focusing cloths are still part of the game for most people... alternative viewing methods have their own compromises.

And off to another 50-posting thread...

[Ted Harris]

I iagree that virtually any camera you choose will provide enough movements; thus, pick the one that feels the best, meets your style and needs and your budget. Your lens selection does make me scratch my head. You said art/portraiture wuld be your main uses but that simple term covers a lot of ground. Generally speaking a 150 mm lens will not serve you very well for anything beyond full bidy portraits. In order to get half body or head and shoulders you will hve to move in rather close. Of course, once you start talking longer lenses then you DO LIMIT your camera choices to ones that have enough bellows to handle yoru longest lens. If you stick in the 180 - 210 range you should still be fine with almost any choice. Meanwhile, want to give us some more information on exactly what you will be shooting?

[Gem Singer]

Hi Matt,

Since you stated that you hated the inconvenience of the Calumet Cadet monorail, and you want to keep the total package price around $1000, you would probably do very well with a 4x5 Tachihara and a Fujinon 125 CM-W lens. That package can be purchased new from Jim, at Midwest Photo Exchange (www.mpex.com). You can probably save a little more if you purchased an slightly older Fuji lens, like a 125W. Previously owned 4x5 Tachi's, in good condition, are scarce.

The 125mm. focal length would be a nice short lens to start with for architecture and general use. Later on, you could add a longer lens, such as a 210, for portraiture, etc. The 4x5 Tachi is small sized, light weight, and has ample movement capability for the type of photography you describe.

[Gem Singer]

Matt, P.S.

Since you mention the Texas heat, if you live near the Irving, Texas area (DFW airport), give me a call, and I will be glad to show you my Tachi outfit, for comparison.

[Eric Leppanen]

Matt,

There is a "like new" 4x5 Tachihara for sale on Ebay right now, whose auction closes on Friday (12/31). The current bid price is $400. This seller does not accept credit cards so be careful if you go this route.

[steve simmons]

Before selecting a camera you need to decide on several things - how long/short should the bellows e (depnds on the lenses you want to use) and how many movements do you really need. IMHO the only essential ones are front and rear swing and tilt. With these movements you can create shift an rise and fall. These questions and their answer's are more important than folding or monorail. When and if people give you specific suggestons in these forums ask them the above question so you know the context of their answers. Some cameras are better suited to long lens work, others for shorter lenses, and some for mid-range lenses. Your bellows should be at least 25% longer than the longest lens you want to use and if you want to easily use a lens shorter than 90mm then you need, in my opinion, a camera that will allow you to use a wide angle/bag bellows.

Take your time, do some thinking and some research and then have fun.

We have an article on our web site called Gettig Started in Large Format that might be helpful. There are several other articles as well

www.viewcamera.com

and then go to the Free Articles secton.

Here is some additional reading

User's Guide tothe View Camera by Jim Stone

Large FormatNature Photography by Jack Dykinga

Using the View Camera that I wrote.

any/all should be available from Amazn.com

In addition to this forum there are two others you might ask advice on

www.apug.org not just large format but has a good large forat section

There is also a discussion group on www.viewcamera.com

steve simmons

[Ralph Barker]

You've already received a lot of good advice, Matt, so I'll add my 2¢ from a slightly different perspective.

First, the field vs. monorail question comes up here quite frequently. If you search the archives here, you'll find quite a few threads on the topic. Much of the information will be redundant, but you'll probably find a few pearls in each thread, so it's probably worth the effort to sort through them.

Next, most of the technical issues relating to available movements ultimately are trumped by personal shooting style and "vision" - how you see the world and prefer to photograph it. In most cases, discussions of movements, and how much of each is enough, fail to address this aspect of the question. So, while helpful, such discussions tend to fall short of being as useful as they might be. Additionally, most view camera books that I've seen discuss the theory behind the various movements, not the ranges of movements required for different shooting styles. Thus, my suggestion would be to give some thought to your style of shooting, and try to draw some parallels between what you are using now (35mm?) and what you'd need with a 4x5.

For example, let's look at portraiture. If you commonly shoot portraits with a 90mm or 105mm lens on 35mm, you'll want a lens of about 2x "normal" focal length on 4x5, or around 300mm. But, if you shoot portraits on 35mm with a 50mm or 75mm lens, you can do similar work with a shorter lens on 4x5 - 150mm to 210mm, perhaps. The wrinkle to think about is how close you are to the subject in most cases. If you tend to like tight head shots, for example, you'll need more bellows to shoot at close distances with the 4x5 - 1.5x to 1.7x the focal length, perhaps. The side issue to think about is that with 4x5 you'll be putting a much larger camera in the face of the subject, and what effect that may have on their comfort levels and expressions. My personal preference for portraits is to use a longer lens, so as to maintain greater relative camera/subject distance to minimize foreshortening. So, I like a 360mm tele design (Nikkor 360T) for 4x5 portraits. But, my field camera (a Toyo 45AX with 321mm max extension) runs out of bellows extension well before I can compose tightly enough for a head shot.

For your architectural work, I'd suggest (again) thinking about what and how you are currently shooting, what you want to achieve with 4x5, and how that translates to the movements you'll need. If, for example, you are typically shooting stand-alone buildings that have considerable space around them, the movements provided by most field cameras will almost certainly be sufficient. If, however, your architectural efforts are mostly with tightly-surrounded buildings in downtown city environments, where you need to shoot at oblique angles and want the face of the building to be sharp, you may need more front and rear swing than the typical field cameras provide.

I think one of the major balancing points for you is that architecture and portraiture fall at opposite ends of the spectrum, view camera feature-wise. Portraiture needs longer bellows extension and almost no movements. Architecture, in contrast, requires more movements and less bellows to accommodate the wider lenses used there. Availability of interchangeable bellows, so you can use a bag bellows with short lenses, may be essential. For the "art" side of your shooting, where the subject matter might be lines and shapes of architectural details, found objects, patterns in nature, and such, a field camera and something close to "normal" focal length would likely suffice. If you like "macro" work, however, longer bellows would be a plus.

[Bill_1856]

Crown Graphic.

[Eric Leppanen]

Matt,

You're getting a lot of good advice here, with most of it centered on better defining your shooting requirements. When I first got into 4x5 four years ago, I heavily researched shooting requirements, camera movements, lens coverages, etc. to come up with what seemed like an ideal 4x5 kit to fulfill my needs. What I've found after four years of shooting, though, is that the LF process, with its unique capabilities and degree of creative control, has dramatically accelerated my development as a photographer, to such an extent that my camera and lens requirements have dramatically changed. My current camera kit little resembles what I purchased four years ago.

Obtaining incremental camera movements, bellows extension, and lens coverage can be very expensive, so I think there is no substitute for getting out in the field with a basic 4x5 and taking photographs, so that you get a much better idea of where your priorities lie. In field work, I found that I did not need lenses as wide as I initially thought (a result of the "squarer" 4x5 image aspect ratio) and I grossly underestimated the merits of long lenses (to focus more closely on a center of interest, compress perspective, etc.). I also found (unlike many fellow landscape shooters) that I am a lens coverage junkie; I like using lots of front rise to shoot large objects looming dramatically overhead, etc. These developments results both from one's vision as a photographer as well as a detailed, practical understanding of what a view camera can do, which comes only from practice.

I suggest you get a good, solid "basic" LF setup to gain experience with this new medium, and to get a better handle on what your photographic requirements will be. If possible, I think you should get a least two, preferably three lenses to benefit from the different perspectives these lenses will bring. For cameras, I think the Tachihara and Shen-Hao offer great bang-for-the-buck in terms of basic field cameras, and the Toho FC-45X (I haven't heard much about the Badger M2) is probably the best basic field monorail. For lens ideas, I suggest you check out Chris Perez' list at http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/kit.html (http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/kit.html). Buy used when possible (Midwest Photo is a great source) so that if you need to evolve in a different direction, you can sell or trade-in your equipment at little or no loss.

Good luck!

[steve simmons]

Crown Graphic.

--Bill, 2004-12-26 12:03:38
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Why??
steve simmons

[Brian Ellis]

I'd second the recommendation of a Tachihara as a good camera with which to start. They are light (around 4 pounds), compact, probably have all the movements you'll need for the work you describe(front rise fall, tilt, and swing, rear tilt and swing), are very easy to set up and take down, are inexpensive by large format standards (about $700 new), and have been around for at least 20 years now so they have had time to establish a reputation. If you buy used I'd suggest avoiding the ones one with the metal parts that have a plating that looks like nickel (as opposed to brass). The ones with the nickel looking plating are the early versions. While they're lighter than the current version by about half a pound, I don't think they were constructed quite as well from what I've read. plus they're going to be at least ten years old.

There aren't a whole lot of books on large format photography presently available and they're all useful for a beginner so IMHO the best one is whichever one you can check out for free at your local library. If your library doesn't have any so that you have to buy one then IMHO "View Camera Technique" by Leslie Stroebel is the best of the ones I've read (and I think I've read them all). It isn't a spell-binding book but it will not only help you greatly in getting started (which all of them will do) but will also serve as a valuable reference source for years to come.

This particular forum is, IMHO, the best discssion group for large format photography and has more and better information in the other sections than you'll find anywhere else. The large format forum at www.photo.net is useful too. I also visit rec.photo.equipment.large-format occasionally. It seems to have deteriorated in the last year or so but you still can get useful information there.

[Ellis Vener]

Canham DLC ( essentially it is a monorail camera in a folding camera package but may be overkill for your stated needs) or a Walker Titan.

[Matt Powell]

Thanks to everyone for their responses, these have been incredibly helpful. I suppose a couple of words on why I want to move to 4x5 would explain my uses/needs better. I've been shooting 35mm for a little under four years, seriously for two (though lately not so much thanks to eye problems). I bought an old Bronica SQ-A two years ago and enjoy working with that a great deal - the larger negative and the square format were ideal (I actually prefer square to 4x5 and tend to print full-frame. I'll have to get used to a new format or make myself crop to a square).

I've been thinking about moving to 4x5 since then - as long as I'm using a tripod to avoid mirror slap, why not go with a bigger negative and more possibilities (Polaroids, alt. processes). I think LF would bring an extra dimension to longer-term documentary-style projects and things that would normally be done with 35mm as a lot of my shooting is. It's also a reaction to the digital revolution in a way (my last big purchase was a digital SLR thanks to rotisserie baseball winnings). I grew up with computers, they hold no mystery or magic for me. Using my D70 is sort of a cold experience, it just doesn't feel right.

I was basing my lens choices on what I shoot in 35mm and 6x6 - most often a 35 or 50mm (equiv.) prime and occasionally a 20mm. I haven't used anything longer than a normal lens in some time, I feel more comfortable closer to the subject. Style-wise, I cover a lot of ground (I'm a student, full-time or part-time depending on what I can fit in). Mainly street/photojournalistic/documentary-style projects, studies of the area I grew up, things like that. I'm hoping to branch into more environmental portraiture as well as studio work in created situations and worlds and alternative processes (ala Sally Mann, the antiquarian movement) which I don't do so much of right now.

I was thinking the Tachihara was a more expensive make, so I had discounted it completely, it does look excellent. In the realm of new, I'm leaning toward a Shen-Hao or Tachihara and an older monorail down the road (two good deals from Midwest Photo sold on EBay today, I'll have to keep an eye open). My first lens choice will definitely require more thought as I hadn't considered the difference in presentation/reaction to a view camera, I was thinking of it in terms of moving from 35mm to 6x6.

[Gem Singer]

Hello again Matt,

Just give Jim a call, at Midwest Photo Exchange. Tell him that you were recommended by this forum. He will fix you up with a 4x5 camera and lenses that will fit your needs and your budget. He will return to the store next Monday. The call will be worth your while, I assure you.