Hiking Boots for Plantar Fasciitis

[Richard Wasserman]

I have recently developed Plantar Fasciitis in one foot and desperately need new hiking boots. I have been wearing Vasque for years and they have suddenly become terribly painful and unwearable. I am looking for a lightweight mid-height boot, preferably waterproof. Any suggestions? I'm desperate...

[cowanw]

Do you have orthopaedic insoles? I have always used Vasque boots but the custom made insoles are now a must for you. Also be sure you replace the soles before you wear down the heel

[johnm]

Try lathrop and sons. They are podiatrists that make and sell custom insoles and high end boots like hanwag and lowa. Great service and terrific product.

[Bob Salomon]

I have it in both feet and found that virtually anything from Mephisto eliminates the pain.

[Peter Lewin]

I guess I come at this from a different perspective, since I developed plantar fasciitis a couple of times when I was a competitive runner. The pain comes from stretching the plantar fascia when you flex your arch, and typically occurs at the attachment point at the heel. So the treatment is a combination of insoles (mentioned in several prior posts) and taping the foot to minimize the flex. There are a large number of responses when you google "taping plantar fasciitis" including demos on YouTube (which is why I hesitate to post any one link). Bottom line, in the short term I would tape the affected foot, which will speed up the reduction in inflammation. Longer term, supportive insoles, either custom (the best solution) or store-bought (next best solution). I honestly don't think the hiking boots themselves will make much difference as long as they fit well.

[Drew Wiley]

I have horrible feet, do a lot of hiking and backpacking on all kinds of terrain, and gave up on store-bought boots a long time ago. I currently wear Essato custom boots, which fit right the first time, and yeah, cost a lot; but the fact that custom boots tend to last ten times as long as store-bought means that they're a bargain in the long run, and the kind of leather they use is highly waterproof. Hard to get that kind of thing nowadays. Expect to wait about six months and pay about eight hundred bucks for the first pair. There are a lot of orthopedic custom shoemaking outfits which can offer a pair of walking shoes or flatlander hunting boots, but very few sources for real hiking boots with good ankle support. It's a different ballgame entirely, if this is in fact what you need. Vasque is pretty flimsy.

[tgtaylor]

You might try Drew's: http://www.onlineshoes.com/mens-drew-trek-black-nubuck-p_id369289?adtrack=bpa&term=Men%27s+Drew+Trek&offer=&device=c&network=&matchtype=

Thomas

[Toyon]

Spend money on orhotics first, if that's what the Doctor recommends. That you can wear almost any boot and partially eliminate uneven wear in the heel, which will only get worse with time.

[Drew Wiley]

If the boot isn't mfg around the orthotic itself, it's going to slide around in there and prematurely wear the boot itself out by cutting into the sides. Just something to be aware of, that my boot repair guy made me aware of (and the best repairman I've ever met, who actually makes a decent income in an expensive neighboorhood, a rare instance indeed in that trade). Most boots nowadays are basically disposable, and not even intended to be resoled. Or you can try double-faced carpet tape.

[tgtaylor]

I don't have any problems with the orthotic sliding around. I get my inserts from the VA who x-rayed my feet and then have them custom built. Been wearing them in dress and hiking boots for about 3 or 4 years now for Plantar Fasciitis with no reoccurrence. I first developed the condition about 20 years ago and the VA injected silicone into the heel bone which cured it until it reoccurred and then switched to the inserts and Drew shoes/boots. The inserts also work in a pair of REI hiking boots that I have but the Drew boots are much better.

Thomas

[Kimberly Anderson]

Holy cow...there must be something going around. I developed this in both feet earlier this summer and it's sticking around in my left foot longer than in my right. I've not done anything for it except a lot of stretching and using a foot roller/massager occasionally. I find myself standing and stretching the tendon by doing leg lifts from my big toe and slowly stretching it out. Sometimes it helps, sometimes not. Ugh...what a terrible malady. I will look into orthotics soon.

[RPNugent]

I developed a similar problem and my doc prescribed night splints rather than orthotics as a first step. After a couple weeks wearing them at night I am back to my normal Vasque boots. The velcro occasionally sticks to itself in the middle of the night or you add a bit more stretch than needed and it gets uncomfortable making you ease up in the middle of the night, but as a "cure" it sure worked for me. Here's what I ended up with, though mine came from the podiatry department in clinic rather than from an online source. May be covered by insurance if your doc prescribes them.

http://www.footcaredepot.com/soft-plantar-night-splint-plantar-fasciitis-treatment/?gclid=Cj0KEQiAn9-kBRDloNeUw7Pe_YwBEiQA4HXMU0E7Lgfo8ld4FAGKF1U6eXRr9K-qYUqUIfSc1PHIIZ0aAvY38P8HAQ

[Drew Wiley]

I suffer from wide, flat deformed feet with short ligaments. But I sometimes backpack with a fellow who has suffers from plantar fascitis, which probably came about from his many years of climbing, when he tended to run down long, steep granite trails following climbs. Duct tape, that's how he does it, and if necessary,
more duct tape, pulling the foot this way or that.

[Bob Salomon]

I don't have any problems with the orthotic sliding around. I get my inserts from the VA who x-rayed my feet and then have them custom built. Been wearing them in dress and hiking boots for about 3 or 4 years now for Plantar Fasciitis with no reoccurrence. I first developed the condition about 20 years ago and the VA injected silicone into the heel bone which cured it until it reoccurred and then switched to the inserts and Drew shoes/boots. The inserts also work in a pair of REI hiking boots that I have but the Drew boots are much better.

Thomas

The VA here did an Xray and shortly thereafter, in the mail, I received a pair of Dr. School's inserts that are really, really uncomfortable.

Maybe I should try to visit the VA out there one time!

[tgtaylor]

Bob,

Mine are "PedAlign" by Digital Casting. Got them through the Palo Alto VA - probably the best VA hospital in the country. I'm on my second pair.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

My podiatrist made thick plaster moulds of my feet which were subsequently sent in to make the carbon fiber orthotics. I wouldn't dream of something pulled off a shelf or rack like Dr Scholls. I mean.... feet are kinda important. We use them all the time, and the way we walk affects all kinds of other body mechanics, like our
knees and back. So this is not like treating a blister, and is worth a bit of investment.

[tgtaylor]

Here's what the Palo Alto VA uses: http://www.pedalign.com/ It's the prescription type shown on the left.

Actually with Drew shoes, the inserts are probably overkill but I've been wearing them daily for several years now.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

That's still just a foot mapper for minor issues. What a good podiatrist can do is make sure your entire leg is in correct alignment before making a prescription cast. Just depends on how bad a problem you have.

[Bruce Watson]

I have recently developed Plantar Fasciitis in one foot and desperately need new hiking boots. ...I'm desperate...

I used to have plantar fasciitis. But I don't now. It wasn't a doctor who helped me; all they seem to be interested in is blood tests and prescription drugs, neither of which has any bearing on plantar faciitis. Wasn't a podiatrist. Wasn't a chiropractor.

You almost certainly don't need new boots. What you probably need is just a trip to a physical therapist. The "joy" of physical therapists is that they (at least all the ones I've met over the years) don't have any interest in you becoming a patient-for-life. What they want to do is to figure out what the cause of your problem is, and if it's bio-mechanical (like plantar faciitis is), show you how to fix it. That's right, *you* have to fix it. And that's right -- it usually can be fixed, without surgery, without drugs, without orthotics, without new boots.

For me, it was an interesting calf stretch. Only took a couple of weeks to walking pain free. But I still do the exercises, if not as often as I probably should. And I still put in my four miles a day just to keep in hiking shape, as I have for decades now.

But if you'd rather chase a "magic bullet" then save the physical therapists for last. I'm an LFer, I know all about chasing magic bullets. :rolleyes:

[Alan Gales]

My daughter pitched fast pitch softball and her calves are turned in some and caused her leg pain. We took her to an orthopedic surgeon and he recommended getting fitted up with custom insoles for her shoes. The insoles made a huge difference.

I'd do like Drew recommends and visit a podiatrist.

[pdmoylan]

I wasted much money, and even worse, time, on a podiatrist. What a horrible experience.

I do not recommend hard orthotics for any hiking. After failing to eliminate PF using the molded units, I asked him for soft inserts. They were $20, I purchased two pair, and have never needed another appointment since.

3/4 inserts (can't recall name, starts with an S but not Dr. Scholls, not gel based, cushioned arch) for daily in all my shoes and sneakers (I now wear 1/2 size larger than normal to address the cushioned inserts), and Asolo boots without the interest have eliminated virtually all of the horrible arch pain.

Be forewarned, it does however change your gait. You can tell if it is working if your shoe soles and heels wear evenly. I used to go through heels and soles in 3 months. Now its closer to 9 months, and it is evenly disbursed.

The problem I have is occasional but very painful cramping in my calf and my feet at night after heavy hiking. So there is a tradeoff but well worth it.

The weight of the equipment exacerbates the problem, especially when you have what's called "flexible flat feet" which is where your feet are very thin, the arch buckling under heavy weight of cameras.

[pdmoylan]

Insole recommended by my Podiatrist was Spenco.

Good luck.

PDM

[Richard Wasserman]

Thanks everybody for your suggestions. My wife is a ballet dancer and has taught me some stretching and strengthening exercises that have helped tremendously. I am hoping that it won't be necessary for me to take more drastic measures, although if I need to I will talk to my doctor. My regular shoes are not so much a problem for me, but my hiking boots are a disaster—they aggravate my PF as soon as I put them on and are very painful. I don not need serious boots as I'm not backpacking or carrying a lot of weight for long distances. I just want something that I can scrabble around in the mud with and do relatively simple and short hikes. The Vasque boots I've been wearing for many years were great, but not so much any more. I guess I'll get to the REI nearby and try on what they have and see what feels best. Wish me luck!

[JWebb]

Number of years ago developed a extremely painful case of PF from running. Got to the point where I would have to stretch in bed for approx 15 min before I could even walk in the morning. Ended up seeing a podiatrist who fitted me with custom orthotics, prescribed a night splint and PT three times per week. All three combined helped with the pain but even after 6 weeks was still unable to get back to running. While at PT one of the therapist indicated that a patient of his had success using barefoot shoes. Investigated and ended up buying a pair of Five Finger barefoot shoes by Viabrim. Felt strange at first and you need to slowly break your legs into wearing them as it's very easy to overdo. Within a couple of weeks wearing them and doing low impact cardio all pain had gone away. Pretty much wore them anytime I was not actually in the office instead of my running shoes or loafers. After about 4 weeks was completely pain free and back to running hour at least three times per week. I feel that the barefoot shoes really did strengthen my lower leg and the change from a heel strike to forefoot eliminated the jarring impact. It's been over 4 years now and have not had one bit of pain, continue to run 12-15 miles per week both on the treadmill and outdoor on trails. Now have several pairs of Five Finger's including one that I use when I go on day hikes. Number of the personal trainers at the gym are now wearing them, as well as other manufacturers bringing out there form of minimilist shoe. Wife also tried them and now it's the only thing she will wear when running or working out at the gym.

regards

[vinny]

Acupuncture.
My 15yr old vasques are still going strong but they don't make this pair any more.

[Drew Wiley]

Vasque, Raichle, all kinds of things were actual serious European-made boots at one time. Now they're just labels on more disposable Chinese stuff. Wear 'em,
wear 'em out, and then throw em away, cause you can't resole em. Or in my case, a suitable fit doesn't even exist.

[tgtaylor]

here's another Drew boot to consider: http://www.onlineshoes.com/Mens-drew-rockford-wp-boot-black-tumbled-leather-p_id161219?adtrack=criteo

Thomas

[Bob Salomon]

Vasque, Raichle, all kinds of things were actual serious European-made boots at one time. Now they're just labels on more disposable Chinese stuff. Wear 'em,
wear 'em out, and then throw em away, cause you can't resole em. Or in my case, a suitable fit doesn't even exist.

That is one reason, besides making the pain go away, why I like the Mephitos. I have two pairs of oxfords, 3 pairs of loafers and two pairs of moccasins. Whenever they get even remotely close to needing refurbishing they get sent to whoever the wizards are in San Diego and they come back resoled, new insoles, new laces, new everything! And then are good for another bunch of years! Haven't had to buy new ones in at least 6 or 8 years! And the only thing that they could not do was on one pair of oxfords replace the soles with the original color soles. But the oness they did use were pretty close to the original color!

Far as I know they are still made in the EU. So are the Bally's I have, but they just aren't as comfortable when you have PF.

[Kirk Gittings]

Thanks everybody for your suggestions. My wife is a ballet dancer and has taught me some stretching and strengthening exercises that have helped tremendously. I am hoping that it won't be necessary for me to take more drastic measures, although if I need to I will talk to my doctor. My regular shoes are not so much a problem for me, but my hiking boots are a disaster—they aggravate my PF as soon as I put them on and are very painful. I don not need serious boots as I'm not backpacking or carrying a lot of weight for long distances. I just want something that I can scrabble around in the mud with and do relatively simple and short hikes. The Vasque boots I've been wearing for many years were great, but not so much any more. I guess I'll get to the REI nearby and try on what they have and see what feels best. Wish me luck!

One of the nice thongs about buying shoes at REI is the generous return policy-try them for awhile and if they don't work out return them.

[Peter York]

Another vote here for seeing a podiatrist. I was unable to hike more than a few miles before getting fitted for orthotics. The problem was knee-based, not planar fasciitis, but the orthotics has made it possible to backpack as much as the rest of my body can tolerate (about 100 mi. at present). Bottom line is the orthotics changed my life, and with a cost of about $300 and a lifespan of about 10 years, its a no-brainer.

I used to only wear Asics motion control running shoes for around-town, and now I can wear anything. I suspect the boot itself is not that important. I have a pair of Asolos, which I highly recommend, but the tread is not that great. It sucks in icy conditions, and can slip in muddy conditions. Otherwise they are very comfortable.

[tgtaylor]

"Take care of your feet and they will take care of you." From my army days.

Thomas

[Lenny Eiger]

I love great hiking boots. I also have really enjoyed shopping at REI. They've just recently changed their policy to a year, but before this they would accept almost anything in return. We bought one pair of boots for my daughter. Every time she grew out of them we just took them back and we got a replacement.
Years ago I bought some Asolo's. They didn't fit well, so I returned them, added another $50 and got some Vasque, didn't like them, returned them and added another $50, and finally (after about 4 years) ended up with a boot from Zamberlan. They are amazing! They fit perfectly, support the ankle extremely well. They look like this: http://www.zamberlan.com/en_eu/backpacking/996-vioz-gtx-12970.html

They are the best boots I have had since the 70's, when I had a pair of Galibier Super Guide RD's. I still have them, but my feet grew too large. I am waiting for the right person to come along to find them a new home...

These boots won't fix your fasciitis, only the clan stretches will, but your feet will be in heaven...

Lenny

[David Lobato]

I have as much experience with P.F. as a lot of posters here, and agree with what people are advising. My feet are so flat my doctor made quite a remark about how bad they look. I've had an achilles rupture repaired and a hip replacement. No fun with either.

My experience is that arch supports and gel pads do not work. Soft cushy insoles make it hurt more.

Start with good quality shoes and boots. I read somewhere that what works best is firm support to position the feet during walking. I generally agree with that. I found by accident that orthotics and insoles with a sideways wedge under each heel stabilize my feet the best. I can walk as much as I want with this kind of stabilization. With this type of support, my feet point straight forward when I walk. That's when I know my feet, knees, legs, and hips are aligned well.

You need to correct both feet, not just the one that hurts. I don't know of anyone with one foot being flat and the other not. And the exercises are important. Keep stretching, often. Ice helps too.

[chassis]

My wife has plantar fasciitis and wears orthotic insoles in her off the shelf Nike running shoes. She runs 4 marathons per year and many miles during the week.

Regarding hiking boots, I have been partial to Danner and Merrell. Danner for taller "boots" where it will be wetter and muddier and Merrell for hiking "shoes". These have served well in all types of hiking east and west of the Rockies. If you were hiking in a lot of broken and jagged rocks, I would look at a Meindl product or similar.

Bottom line for me, use an orthotic insole in your boot of choice. My boots of choice are generally Merrell or Danner.

p.s. My wife does a lot of stretching exercises /therapy to manage her plantar fasciitis. This is a part of successfully managing a more severe case.

[Jim Becia]

I love great hiking boots. I also have really enjoyed shopping at REI. They've just recently changed their policy to a year, but before this they would accept almost anything in return. We bought one pair of boots for my daughter. Every time she grew out of them we just took them back and we got a replacement.


Lenny

And you wonder why they changed their return policy!

[paulr]

I don't think any hiking boots have much arch support off the shelf. You'll need to experiment with orthotics or insoles. Some boots have more than others. My La Sportiva mountaineering boots have a more curved last / greater arch support than my Vasque winter boots. But both need insoles. Running shoes are easy to separate in this regard. "Stability shoes" will offer more support than neutral or "cushioning" shoes.

I'm not at all surprised that there's a nearly equal number of "podiatrists rule!" and "podiatrists suck!" votes.

An article in the NY Times a few years back talked about how the science of the human foot (and shoe) is almost non-existant. Podiatrists all subscribe to their pet theories, which are quite different from one another. The Times sent a group of people to several different highly ranked podiatrists; No foot got the same diagnosis / prescription from more than one doctor. But some of the subjects had their conditions cured or improved. It seemed like a bit of a toss-up.

Among the people I know with serious foot problems, they seem to have equally spotty success with prescription orthotics and with over-the-counter insoles. So I think it makes sense to try the cheap solutions first.

I don't doubt that the various exercises and therapies are likewise helpful, at least some of the time.

So far I've been free of PF, but it runs in my family, and spend a lot of time walking and hiking. My feet are happiest with Sole brand insoles in all the shoes that will take them. Nothing else has worked as well, including a $200 pair of custom jobs from a ski boot fitter. But your magic bullet may differ entirely.

[Drew Wiley]

I wouldn't even think of REI for serious footwear. They're more into glorified tennis shoes, or at best, throw-away boots. Maybe OK for normal feet in mild terrain and warm weather. I won't even allow someone to travel with me into the mtns in Fall with that kind of footwear. Too much frostbite risk. Seen that scenario before. Plus the average life of those kinds of boots is only a year or two if you're active, so add up the bill for ten years and you'll discover that, once again, a bargain is not a bargain. But I'd classify that alleged NYT article as utter BS. A real Podiatrist is first of all an MD, then must carry an additional license in foot surgery. Some foot problems are complicated, and some cannot be resolved even with surgery. So no, they can't work miracle. But a visit to a modern podiatrist did make a world of difference for me. And no... there is no such thing as a $200 pair of real custom boots. Ten times that price is more typical. Two hundred bucks will barely buy a pair of duplicate prescription orthotics, after you pay the Podiatrist per se.

[Richard Wasserman]

Well, I bought a pair of Asolo leather/Goretex boots with green Superfeet insoles and so far am very happy. My feet feel better in the boots than in my bare feet. I'm sure they will not last as long as custom made boots and will not be able to be resoled when they wear out. But then again I am not trekking in wilderness conditions for many days at a time. I think they will serve me well.

[Racer X 69]

I used to have plantar fasciitis. But I don't now. It wasn't a doctor who helped me; all they seem to be interested in is blood tests and prescription drugs, neither of which has any bearing on plantar faciitis. Wasn't a podiatrist. Wasn't a chiropractor.

You almost certainly don't need new boots. What you probably need is just a trip to a physical therapist. The "joy" of physical therapists is that they (at least all the ones I've met over the years) don't have any interest in you becoming a patient-for-life. What they want to do is to figure out what the cause of your problem is, and if it's bio-mechanical (like plantar faciitis is), show you how to fix it. That's right, *you* have to fix it. And that's right -- it usually can be fixed, without surgery, without drugs, without orthotics, without new boots.

For me, it was an interesting calf stretch. Only took a couple of weeks to walking pain free. But I still do the exercises, if not as often as I probably should. And I still put in my four miles a day just to keep in hiking shape, as I have for decades now.

But if you'd rather chase a "magic bullet" then save the physical therapists for last. I'm an LFer, I know all about chasing magic bullets. :rolleyes:


I wasted much money, and even worse, time, on a podiatrist. What a horrible experience.

I feel that I must agree here. Having developed plantar fasciitis and Morton's Neuroma on my right foot in the early 1990's, then enduring all that modern medicine can throw at it I can attest to all the torture the doctors have dreamed up.

The torture incuded the following.

Injections of corticosteroid injections. This was done in the heel, and the ball of the foot. Both locations were extremely painful to endure. The needle is about 2 inches long, and inserted almost the entire length. The heel injection is started on the inner side of the foot at about where the arch meets the heel and passed into where the plantar fascia meets the bone at the rear of the foot. The injection for the Morton's Neuroma is placed starting at the top of the foot between the toe joints where the neuroma is wrapped around the nerve bundle, and again inserted fully to insure the steroid is placed properly. When I asked why that injection doesn't go in from the bottom, which would result in a shorter path for the needle the doctor told me there is too much callous in the way.

Taping. While this is really not all that painful, it is bothersome and inconvenient. The tape will sometimes roll up and create pressure points that add to the discomfort.

Orthotics. Even though they feel great when first tried on in the doctor's office, I never really got used to having them in my shoes all day, every day. And the doctor actually had 3 or 4 different types made for me during the many years he treated me for this condition.

Drugs. I have long since forgotten the names of the myriad list of drugs I have been prescribed by the foot doctor. It runs the gamut from NSAID's and narcotics to drugs originally intended to treat mental problems such as Neurontin and Paxil. Like you guys mention, doctors really like to throw drugs at things.

Surgery. During the course of the years I was treated for this problem, the original physician retired and his son took over the practice. In 1997 I gave in and elected the surgical option. The plantar fascia was relieved (cut), and the neuroma removed. Removing the neuroma was probably the most difficult to go through. Since it was wrapped around a sensory nerve bundle between the second and third toes the nerves were sectioned and buried mid foot. This resulted in loss of feeling for most of the bottom of my foot. I ultimately got used to it, but for many years it was not easy to tell which pedal my right foot was on, the gas or the brake. When racing I use that foot to "heel and toe", and there were far too many times when I nearly ran off the race track at very high speed.

The recovery from the surgery took about 6 months. Then about 9 months post surgery I was still having troubles, and the doctor placed the foot in a cast for another 3 months. Fortunately this was a work related condition (injury) so it didn't result in too much loss of income.

Today I have a bunion and hammertoe on that foot, and the other foot is beginning to show signs of the same. The plantar fascia release never resulted in relief of the pain, and there is another neuroma growing in the right foot, and the left foot has one too. When I went to see him again, the doctor put me through another series of torturous injections.

This resulted in side effects that were never made clear to me. The steroids in the cortisone cause avascular necrosis. So four years ago I had to have my left hip replaced. I know, they never shot the steroid into my hip. But the avascular necrosis is why the hip required replacement, and I have never injured the hip.

And now I am developing similar necrosis in all of my major joints, and almost every section of my spine.

I truly wish I had never allowed all this, as it is now causing the quality of life to deteriorate as I get older.

And sometimes I feel like I should go see that quack and give him a swift kick in the, well you know . . . . . .

The physical therapy, while only palliative, certainly provided the best relief. And like you I continue to do the stretching, and use ice from time to time. I also use a TENS unit, which was originally given to me to back pain relief. I have learned where to place the pads, and when using ice it provides some comfort, albeit only for a short time.

I also have found that buying the best quality shoes and boots goes a long way toward happy feet. And the links provided here for custom made shoes and boots give me an even greater chance of having good, comfortable footwear.

[Erik Larsen]

Well, I bought a pair of Asolo leather/Goretex boots with green Superfeet insoles and so far am very happy. My feet feel better in the boots than in my bare feet. I'm sure they will not last as long as custom made boots and will not be able to be resoled when they wear out. But then again I am not trekking in wilderness conditions for many days at a time. I think they will serve me well.
I use those super feet insoles as well. It made all the difference in my Merrill boots when hiking any kind of distance. I was skeptical at first, but they really helped alleviate the "tired feet" syndrome I had before inserting them. I dread buying another pair of boots just because of the break in required to make them really comfortable. I can buy a pair of tennis shoes and wear them out of the store and never notice any discomfort but for some reason I really have to put some miles on my boots to make them truly comfortable for the rocky terrain I frequent.

[Drew Wiley]

Not much different than bad back issues. Surgery should only be a last resort; and if so, always get a second opinion. But what can mess up driving for me is a
bout of gout in the big toe. That can make using a truck clutch hell! Fortunately, a good long backpack, and prior strenuous training/workouts burns off most of the nasty stuff in my system. Otherwise, diet and vitamins seem to help a lot. I had such terrible foot pain in my earlier years that I just put up with it, since nobody had an answer back then. I still have bad pain standing on hard floors or walking paved roads, sidewalks, etc. Mountains are fine because the foot comes down at a different angle almost every time, due to the uneven terrain. But back when the evil General Hershey was shipping every young man to Vietnam, the Army doc took one look at my feet and gave me a 4F. So I guess that was one positive thing. Otherwise, pain reduction had to await modern carbon fiber orthotics and someone who understood how they are intended to be used. Of course, the weight of the LF pack gets factored into the equation along with body wt. - ironic, cause as I "gravitate" toward lighter packs, my belly mass seems to proportionately increase, keeping the orthotic formula relatively constant.

[paulr]

Vasque, Raichle, all kinds of things were actual serious European-made boots at one time. Now they're just labels on more disposable Chinese stuff. Wear 'em,
wear 'em out, and then throw em away, cause you can't resole em. Or in my case, a suitable fit doesn't even exist.

Vasque is and always was an American company. Raichle seems to have been bought by Mammut, also of Switzerland.

La Sportiva, Scarpa, and Asolo make their boots in Italy. Their current offerings are better technologically, and as good in basic quality, as any boots I've seen made in the last 50 years. If they don't fit your outlier feet ... that's another issue entirely.

My favorite lighter mountain shoes are approach shoes by 5.10, and trail running shoes by Montrail. Both from bad 'ol China. I can hike farther, harder, and more comfortably in these than any shoes or boots I've ever worn. If I get a few seasons out of them, I'm happy. They'll wear out because they're lightweight, not because they're crap.

[Drew Wiley]

All those boots are miserable quality compared to what they once were, and mostly Chinese these days. My first pair of Raichles were true leather Swiss double boots made with moose hide. Weighed a lot, but you could posthole in deep snow all day long without getting your feet wet or cold. I kicked my way up a lot of ice walls in those things and my good ole wooden ice axe (well, while it lasted). Nowadays people either have to go to plastic or pay a couple grand for custom to get anything like that. I put over 10,000 miles on that pair before someone stole them! Any pair of Vasques wore out in six months. I have a pair of Asolo heavy crosscountry ski boots that I gave up on years ago. So so. Never fit right anyway. Then I ordered up a pair of Meekan custom hiking boots. Took forever to break in but lasted 25 years and eight resolings! I'd call that a bargain over time. Now I wear Essato custom boots. They keep prices reasonable by cutting the components CNC. Good waterproof leather (which is impossible to find in store-bought boots). They build the boot with the orthotics on hand, and each shoe (L&R) separately, and can do minor readjustments afterwards. Never had a serious blister with them, not even new, and have already put on maybe a thousand miles. First pair around $800, an extra pair runs about half that. Quite reasonable. Should have had them make my street boots instead of going Red Wing. I
can't wear ordinary shoes or even casual lightwt boots at all due to my deformed feet. Need a LOT of serious ankle support.

[paulr]

All those boots are miserable quality compared to what they once were, and mostly Chinese these days.

[Jeremiad Generator™ > On!]

Oh Drew. I do believe you're familiar with the old kletterboots, as I am also. But I don't think you know anything about what's available today. I've got two pairs of La Sportiva mountaineering boots that are every bit as well made as anything out of Italy, France, or Switzerland in the 1970s. I see those old boots. I've had a couple of pairs of them.

There are two enormous advantages to the new boots: the technology is just superior, so you get better climbing performance and lower weight (and in the winter models, more warmth). They're more waterproof than the old boots ever were (which is to say, they're waterproof) and don't need customer intervention to maintain this quality.

The other advantage is that the new boots are optional, because the new lightweight shoes are so good. Unless you need a lot of foot or ankle support, you can use ballet-slipper weight shoes to hike higher and farther and more comfortably than anyone used to imagine.

My Sportiva boots are for when I need to wear crampons at some point in the day. That's it. If I don't need to clamp on the 'poons, I don't even consider them. I'll wear my 5.10 approach shoes if I'm carrying a pack or doing a lot of 3rd / 4th class scrambling, and my trail running shoes otherwise.

It's a much better world. Do harder hikes and alpine climbs now than I did when I was in my 20s. The shoes get some of the credit.

[edited to add: the sportivas are still made in Italy, if you actually care]

[Drew Wiley]

Oh Paul ... I wear a far better pair of boots routinely than anything you can buy store-bought. And I do know a thing or two about outdoor gear. For one
thing, I not only know the people who run some of these stores and companies, and even own them, but I've had more than my fair share of big-budget expedition gear piled around my house over the years, and that most of it is made to last just one or two trips. Most of this boot mfg per se is geared to one key variable: make it cheaper, not better. Maybe rock-climbing slippers are an exception, but I can't think of much else. You ought to talk to our local boot repairman, who takes it all in. Or never mind... he has contempt for all but one particular podiatrist, and doesn't consider any boot custom unless it's built with the orthotics permanently in place rather than accommodated (unfortunately, nobody offer true mountain boots that way). Even the choice of leather has gone to hell unless custom. Your comment makes about as much sense as saying these anodized aluminum enlargers out the gate last are superior to postwar machined stainless Durst units. I'd have ended up dead decades ago with broken ankles in the middle of nowhere if I'd have used those silly glorified tennis shoe thingeys.

[Drew Wiley]

... Yeah, I anticipate the rebuttal... I've got bad feet, most people don't. But just a few years ago I'm out awhile in Oct high country with a friend (who I insisted
wear real boots too). We're having fun, but pretty isolated behind a high pass, waiting out the blizzards. Meanwhile, helicopters are overhead for several days looking for stranded hikers. About eight parties had to be helicopter rescued that week because they were wearing that Gortex/running-shoe-REI-ish footwear instead of real boots. Sure, the Indians did it for millenia barefoot; but we don't have any statistics on how many of them froze in the mountains, and they probably were done crossing the passes by the end of summer anyway. And they had enough common sense not to buy things made in China. Probably didn't use Discover cards either.

[Sirius Glass]

Invest in a pair of custom made sole inserts made by a properly trained technician at a sports store.

[paulr]

... Yeah, I anticipate the rebuttal... I've got bad feet, most people don't.

Which is why you need to stop conflating your special needs with everyone else's. It's entirely understandable that someone with terribly abnormal feet would need custom-made boots. But I don't believe for a second that anyone else does. I've never seen evidence that plantar's faciitis is best cured with custom shoes. I've never even heard it suggested before now. I'd personally rather leave the corrections to insoles, since the chances are good it will take quite a few attempts to find a good solution.

While your personal connections to the Pantheon of the outdoor industry sounds very impressive, I'm afraid I don't believe a word of it. Your characterization of the industry doesn't fit my own very personal experiences of it.

My own investigation looks like this: what footwear do the elite mountain athletes wear? The guys setting records on 100-mile trail runs, or in the Arrowhead showshoe race, or on the great Alpine enchainments, or right now on the Dawn Wall of El Cap? What are people wearing to the tops of the 8000 meter peaks? Up the hardest ice climbs, or the coldest routes in the Alaska Range?

I can only think of one set of examples of people using custom footwear: over a decade ago, there were no commercially available shoes designed for difficult mixed climbing. People were making their own by bolting pieces of crampons to the bottom of cycling cleats, and other kinds of McGyverings. But the industry caught on in about two seasons so no one does this anymore. EVERYONE doing the hardcore shit is using off-the-shelf shoes these days. And the reason is that the shoes are really good.

[Drew Wiley]

Paul... you're preaching to the wrong guy. My nephew climbed El Cap over two hundred times when he lived with me.... and every one of them a difficult route.
He did the first direct ascent of Escudo in Patagonia, considered the most technical climb ever done in South America, twice and ht of El Cap but overhanging in
sub-zero weather. He did the first direct ascent of the NW Tower of Aasgard on Baffin Island, possibly the most difficult tech climb ever done in the arctic. Who do you think reset the bolts to that stupid Dawn Wall on the third ascent, after RR chopped them years before? I was right there helping him scope the route, after I chopped a crest off an ice column piled up below El Cap Falls, so I could set my Sinar on it for an edge-on shot. One of my hiking pals owned the first serious climbing shop in NYC. His brother runs one of these big mucky muck climbing companies; and his best friends owns probably the biggest name in climbing gear. We get to test any of this gear we want in advance. So I'm afraid you, Paul, my friend, are a bit of your league in some of these comments.

[Drew Wiley]

... To rub it in a bit more ... why the heck to you think you have to wait months on end to get a pair of custom boots, even though it's now semi-automated via
CNC? It's cause they're in DEMAND. Got a postcard from them last nite. Now they're making XC boots too. And not long ago they added old-shool heavy leather
mtn boots for the crampon crowd. Why? It's called DEMAND. Ever seen someone trying to actually hike in those plastic expedition boots? It ain't fun, and they only last one or two expeditions. Gosh do I know that. So why do they wear them? Cause that's what they got free from the expedition sponsor, who made or sold the damn things to begin with !!!! Ever wonder why some dogsledder will spend two or three thousand dollars for traditional handmade Eskimo-style moosehide boots? Cause they're still the best. I've been back wherever, when someone had a bad bout of plantar f., and I'd place my money on a good podiatrist and some serious footwear before I'd trust some snarky web opinions. And I really don't give a damn whether someone in NYC believes me or not ...
I've only got thousands of large format shots from hundreds of trips in the mtns, in all kinds of weather. That should give someone a clue.

[Dennis]

I had it pretty bad for a long time, felt like I had been hit on the bottom of the foot with a hammer. I think it has a lot to do with how the shoe fits as well as the support. I finally found the absolute cure for myself at REI with a hiking shoe made by Merrill. My feet are hard to fit and the Merrill shoes fit me well give and strong support and memory foam and are water proof.
Dennis

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah... Merrill seem to be the quality choice at the moment for store-bought. But it's a question whether or not the specs will hold next time around. So when a certain person who backpacks with me quite a bit lately found a good fit, he bought one or two extra pair, since these can't be seriously repaired or resoled. He came close to frostbite in them last Oct, but that was up pretty high in some unusually cold storms for that time of year. The ultra-high-tech expensive Hilleburg
tent was a bellyflop, however, and he immediately replaced it with a tried-and-true Bibler.

[Darin Boville]

>>Yeah... Merrill seem to be the quality choice at the moment for store-bought.<<

Well, you are in luck. Merrell--the guy who founded the company--still makes custom boots for you, personally. About $1300 plus a few days of your time. Or he can customize store-bought boots if he thinks that is the way to go for about $300.

The best of both worlds...?

--Darin

[Drew Wiley]

There aren't very many people left who make custom backcountry boots. Plenty of makers of custom cowboy boots and flatland field hunting boots. And this apparently differs entirely from true "prescription" shoes, which for reasons of malpractice liability are always made in duplicate, with one set held in reference
storage, just in case some ambulance-chaser starts a class-action suit against blisters n' bunions. That's why the damn things start around $2500 - more than a set of custom hiking boots! There was an older fellow up in rural BC still making really heavy Alaska boots, and you'd wait a year or two for them... and probably spend another twenty years breaking them in! There's a fellow in Bishop still making semi-custom mtn boots, but only with his current reference stock of "custom" molds - he won't deal with any new ones. But I had such good luck with Esatto this time around. No serious break-in issues, for the first time in my life. Some of the little metal shoelace eyelets pulled out and had to be replaced locally - the one component made in China! But that was only a few bucks to fix. I sent the graphite orthotics to them along with the initial foot measurements, and they mailed them back to me in just two days. Overall, I waited about
three months for the boots themselves.

[paulr]

Drew, I'm delighted that you have a nephew who does more than complain on the internet. I don't see how that makes you "out of my league," since i actually climb stuff (when I'm not fielding your complaints on the internet) and while doing so I pay a bit of attention to what other people are using. You haven't addressed my observation that virtually all the hardcore routes are being done by people wearing off-the-shelf shoes.

I imagine there's a market for custom boots partly because some folks just like custom stuff, and partly because very few companies offer shoes in multiple widths these days. People with messed up feet (like you), very wide, very narrow, or of very unequal sizes, are going to find value in custom building.

I wouldn't be surprised if companies like Sportiva and Scarpa offer some custom fit options to their sponsored athletes, although I have heard about it. At any rate, the point is that all of this is about fit, not quality.

Nobody climbing serious routes these days is complaining about the quality of the available shoes. I more often hear people marveling at how great they are, because they have experience with the shoes from 10 and sometimes 20 or more years ago, and can't help noticing how much less the shoes get in their way now.

It's just a stupid conversation. If you ever tried climbing (rock or ice) in 1980s era double boots, and then tried in a modern pair of equally warm single boots, it would be a revelation. No one has ever had a different opinion. When you have the choice to hike and climb in something that weights half as much, controls your foot better, and puts your toes closer to the rock or ice for greater sensitivity, you feel better and you move better. The technology is just on another level today.

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah... and I'll bet you never had to pull someone out of the mountains who was in serious danger of hypothermia due to wearing velcro-soled bedroom slippers when they should have had real boots. Yeah... I know about these jogger mentalities. Twist an ankle and there goes the body temperature fast; 'cause the same
types generally don't bother to carry a sweater or rain parka either. Had enough vacations ruined by them. Encountered enough rescues and body retrievals. I
wouldn't even be alive today if I listened to flatlanders and their gear gurus. I've only been doing this my entire life. I was running thru the mtns before anyone ever coined the concept of "trail running". Most places didn't even have trails. We simply called it getting from Point A to Point B. So I understood what "ultralight" travel was long before that term was coined either. It was just called being too poor to afford fancy stuff back then. Yeah... drive up climbers. I know about them too. Try climbing with 85 lbs of Sinar on your back and see how your feet feel in bedroom slippers.

[tgtaylor]

Injections of corticosteroid injections. This was done in the heel, and the ball of the foot. Both locations were extremely painful to endure. The needle is about 2 inches long, and inserted almost the entire length. The heel injection is started on the inner side of the foot at about where the arch meets the heel and passed into where the plantar fascia meets the bone at the rear of the foot.

I got the heel injection at the San Diego VA and got 15 years of relief from PF.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

Steroids as per above are controversial. Some MD's won't do them anymore. I avoid the subject, cause my wife has strong opinions based on the kind of recent
med seminars she attends. But she does treat one of the cats with em!

[paulr]

Well, yeah, Drew, the light+fast ethos only works for people with the skills to pull it off. Otherwise it becomes light+slow ... which is a problem.

You're conflating inexperienced people who go into the mountains ill-equiped with the experienced ones who value minimalism.

All cutting edge mountain endeavors have been done with a minimalist approach for the last 30 years. This is because people figured out (surprise!) if you're carrying less, you can go farther and higher and faster. It reduces your margin of error, but for a mountain athlete, this itself can be part of the challenge.

A lot of minimalists have no interest in breaking records and boundaries. They just like the freedom of moving fast. That's where I'm coming from. I love being able to see lots of landscapes, lots of mountain ecosystems, lots of views, and like to do it without the hassle of carrying my house on my back. It feels like freedom. I've traversed the Presidential range in New Hampshire in a day (including 10 summits). I've done about 3/4 of the Teton Crest trail in a day, and would like to try for the whole thing. These have been the most fun hikes of my life. I really don't think I could have done them in heavy boots. I certainly couldn't have done them enjoyably.

My trail running shoes have lasted two seasons and will probably last another one. I think that's great. I forget what they cost ... probably just over $100. I've never had a blister or a hint of foot pain from them, which is priceless. I use them with the exact insoles I pop into all my shoes.

I understand the appeal of old-timey hiking boots. I'm getting ready to retire my Montelliana Peregrines, which I've had since 1985. They were my winter boots and backpacking boots for a couple of decades, and took me up my first summits of both the grand teton and mt. rainier. They've got soul. But compared with my modern boots, they're just not good at anything. My other shoes are lighter, more supportive, warmer, better climbing, more waterproof, more comfortable. I would have tossed the old ones out last year but I wanted to be able to say they lasted 30 years.

[paulr]

...but that's really a different conversation. Plenty of people have reason to wear heavier boots. My point is that modern ones are plenty high quality.

And my evidence is that if you look at the people doing the hardest stuff in the world, they're invariably using off the shelf footwear.

If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for any of us goofballs.

I just put it to the test this evening. I made a list off the top of my head of contemporary elite mountain athletes. Then I went to their sites or did image searches. Shoes these days have prominent branding! I looked up Steve House, Marko Prezelj, Will Gadd, Dean Potter, Collin Haley. Most of them are using La Sportivas. One picture of House has him in Asolos. Will is sponsored by Scarpa. He blogs a lot about gear; haven't seen any mention of funny business with shoes. My friend Alex owns a lot of the ultra trail run records in the northeast. I don't know what brand shoes he wears, but they look like mine (not that I can keep up with him).

[Drew Wiley]

Maybe this is getting too academic, and on your side, you seem to be confusing sport climbing, sport running, with a wider gamut of practical need. Lots of climbers are doing things quite different then some plastic and concrete climbing wall. Sport shoes are worthless in the Andes, Himalayas, higher latitudes, even
higher altitudes here off-season. I remember when several climbers died of hypothermia even in midsummer storms right on El Cap, where they could have almost thrown stones down onto gawking tourists. That week I was at 12000 ft. My toothpaste froze in the middle of my pack under a blue sky. The next day the blizzard hit so hard that it closed Hwy 395 down where the summer temp is normally around 100F. I'd like to see anyway walk out of something like that in speed shoes. I've done that kind of thing repeatedly, even for fun. Other people died, underequipped. Obviously, if someone enjoys moving fast and far, like I
did in my youth (even barefoot! - since shoes fit so miserably), that's fine. Indians did it; but they had all kinds of caves and rock overhands and so forth in route. But once you factor in distance PLUS large format, plus camping stuff, that kinda alters your outlook. I know all about rock bums. Most of them can't take
a picture worth a damn. A few can. And these days, they're more likely to gravitate to action cams. I'd like to see how your current sport climbing "A" list would
do if you asked them to add on a 16lb Ries, a typical 8x10, and some filmholders to their conventional gear list. I had a bad enough time trying to convince my nephew to put an extra weeks worth of toilet paper in his haul bag up the Dawn Wall. They came back with miserable sunburns after tearing apart T-shirts, pants legs, etc. Kids. Sometimes Ole Uncle does know a thing or two.

[paulr]

Cut it with the straw man arguments. Everyone I mentioned is an alpinist. Except for one who's an ultra trail runner.

[Drew Wiley]

No straw man. Anyone with sport shoes would have their feet frozen in mere minutes in typical extreme conditions. One of my friends lost his toes on Aconcagua two years ago, and he's one of the top name in Himalayan extreme climbing. Another friend almost lost his life on the same route, and his "day job" is guiding on Denali. My nephew didn't even remove his boots for over two months on Baffin, and had to be treated for trenchfoot by an arctic specialist MD when he finally got back. Couldn't even sleep without wearing seriously heavy arctic boots. Too cold. Even up the back of Ama Dablam last season, I can guarantee you sport shoes weren't used. Not everyone walks across a bridge from the Ahwahnee Hotel to start a climb. My nephew made a whole string of first ascents in the Karakorum with Kurt Diemberger - yeah, ever hear of him? Still at it. A living legend. And I assure you, nobody wore sport shoes on an expedition like that, not even on the approach, which happened to be about two hundred miles of extreme terrain before even reaching the glaciers. Yeah, I know... now try a checklist of show-off climbers, and extreme skiers, and bat-suit jumpers, who never made it past their twenties. Their choice. Not mine.

[Richard Wasserman]

Uh guys, I got new boots and am happy. Maybe it's time to move on?

[Bruce Watson]

Merrell--the guy who founded the company--still makes custom boots for you, personally.

Randy Merrell (http://merrellfootlab.com/beginnings.htm) is a truly nice guy, and he does excellent work. But he hasn't been associated with the Merrell boot company in well over a decade. He is (or was when he made my boots maybe 14 years ago) completely independent. Just him and his wife. And happy about it.

And Randy would be one of the first people to tell you that plantar fasciitis isn't caused by, or cured by, boots. Not even his.

[paulr]

Uh guys, I got new boots and am happy. Maybe it's time to move on?

Hooray!

[paulr]

My nephew made a whole string of first ascents in the Karakorum with Kurt Diemberger - yeah, ever hear of him? Still at it. A living legend. And I assure you, nobody wore sport shoes on an expedition like that...

of course they didn't. He's EIGHTY TWO years old, Drew. The boots I'm talking about didn't exist in his day.

I'm talking about what they're wearing on 1st ascents in the Karakorum in this century.

Happily, it's moot, since the OP found his boots.

[Drew Wiley]

He's still climbing, Paul.... that's the whole deal. It's still his day. People don't live that long wearing bedroom slippers just because they saw them on U-tube. He was the oldest person to climb K2, and in fact the only survivor of that trip. There's a reason these guys are still around, and a reason why all the twenty-something hotshots are not. But what you don't seem to get is that this is LF forum, not "Action Cam on the end of a Carabiner Forum". When I traveled ultralight, I was carrying a very early Honeywell Pentax - but I still wore real boots. Glaciers aren't real friendly places, and only a fool would wear something lightwt on them. And plenty of sport climbers are fools. That's why they win the Darwin award so often. The climbers that live to be my age have a different mentality. Obviously, not every one on this forum needs to worry about severe terrain or even understands the subject, or why choice of footwear can be a life
or death decision. I've walked out of storms chuckling, only to find out that someone else didn't.

[Fred L]

I always had Vasque on my feet years ago but they seemed to have strayed from their earlier Clarion days. I've been wearing Kayland boots for the last ten years or so and find them on par or better than the early Vasques.

[Racer X 69]

Uh guys, I got new boots and am happy. Maybe it's time to move on?

I concur.

Congratulations on your new footwear Richard! I hope that your feet will be happy through every step.

[Darin Boville]

Uh guys, I got new boots and am happy. Maybe it's time to move on?

Well, Richard. What did you buy? Have you used them yet? :)

--Darin

[Richard Wasserman]

I bought a Pair of Asolo leather/Goretex boots that are quite comfortable. I have been wearing them for increasing lengths of time to get them broken in, which I think they pretty much are now. I just wish it would warm up a bit so I can spend some time outdoors without worrying about freezing to death....




Well, Richard. What did you buy? Have you used them yet? :)

--Darin

[paulr]

Asolo's always made really nice boots. I used to covet my sister's Yukons (I think they still make these). Asolo's lasts never quite fit my feet so I've always had to admire from a distance.

[Richard Wasserman]

These are my first Asolos and I'm sorry I didn't find them years ago. Fit of course is everything and they feel as if they were made just for me.


Asolo's always made really nice boots. I used to covet my sister's Yukons (I think they still make these). Asolo's lasts never quite fit my feet so I've always had to admire from a distance.

[Drew Wiley]

Asolo made some excellent XC ski boots at one time.

[csxcnj]

With apologies to Dan'l Boone

Ol' Drew Wiley was a man,
Yes, a big man!
With an eye like an eagle
And as tall as a mountain was he!
*
Old' Drew Wiley was a man,
Yes, a big man!
He was brave, he was fearless
And as tough as a mighty oak tree!
*
From the coonskin cap on the top of ol' Drew
To the heel of his custom built shoe;
The rippin'est, roarin'est, postin'est man
The intertets ever knew!
*
Ol' Drew Wiley was a man,
Yes, a big man!
And he opined for America
To make all Americans see!
*
What a Drewer, what a do-er,
What a dream come-er true-er was he!

[Drew Wiley]

Thanks. I'm not big, I'm medium. I do own a real coonskin cap, just like a lot of little boys did growing up in the 50's, but it's safely stored away in a cedar chest
for someone. I did own a real flintlock and powder horn, with quite a family battle history behind it. But that has already been passed on to younger relatives. I
did visit Virginia once, and my sister had a landscaping business there while her husband worked in the state department. We both had the same reaction when
the locals asked us is we were going to drive to the mountains to see the sights. "What mountains???? Oh... that.... thought those were gopher mounds."

[paulr]

They say a grizzle bear once died at the mere site of his size-80 custom boot, he did.

[Drew Wiley]

Sorry, I have unusually small feet. That fact made me a bit suspicious of when my nephew gave me, for a birthday present, a pair of absolutely huge crampons,
which coincidentally happened to fit his own huge feet. Naturally, he asked if he could "borrow" them the next weekend. But Paul, if you want to properly converse with hill people, at least learn to spell died, as "dide", and to pronounce bear as "bahr". I know, I know... you're used to the Brooklyn pronunciation: "beah".