Turner-Reich Gundelach : seeking opinion and info

[SpeedGraphicMan]

Seeking info on this lens.
Triple convertable Turner-Reich Gundelach 8x10 anast f7.0

Worth purchasing? I am assuming it will cover 8x10 - anyone know what the three focal lengths are?

126753

[IanG]

It's worth what you're prepared to pay for it, be aware they can suffer badly from separation which can be seen around the edges in the photo. Personally I wouldn't pay more than $100 unless it was in excellent condition.

It should be 12" both cells, and Front cell 21", Rear cell 28"

Ian

[Steven Tribe]

It is the most notorious sufferer from separation there is because of the number of cemented lenses in each cell! When they are OK, users are quite happy with performance.

Apart from the edge breakdown Ian noted, there are sporadic patches all over the front cell. What will the rear cell look like?

[goamules]

I would look for a series II Velostigmat, or a IIB Tessar for your goals. But the Turner Reich is also and excellent lens. You just have to make sure they're not separated. I've had a few, and most are ok, just a little on the very edge. But be sure before you buy. A touch of separation at the edges or a scratch or two isn't going to hurt a LF lens. I also sent you a PM of a good deal, ending soon.

[Louis Pacilla]

It should be 12" both cells, and Front cell 21", Rear cell 28"

Ian

This is the later version of 25" & 19.5" cells to make a 12" f7 lens to cover 8x10 & was manufactured in Fairport N.Y.

Versus the earlier version of 28" & 19.5" cells to make a 12" f6.8 lens to cover 8x10 and manufactured in Rochester N.Y.

[SpeedGraphicMan]

Separation?

[Peter De Smidt]

Some glass elements are cemented together. At that time, they'd have used Canadian balsam. This glue can start to fail over time, usually starting at the edges.

[Fotoguy20d]

You will see separation as brownish gunk within the glass, particularly the edges. Some of these have crackling internally throughout. I've heard it's usually in the rear balsam joint. Each of the lens cells is 5 pieces of glass cemented together. I have this lens as well as the 12-21-28. I really like them, and, with the four cells you can mix and match to a lot of combinations.

That one is in an ilex shutter. Mine are both in wollensak shutters. The threads on the two brands do not interchange.

Dan

[dsphotog]

Be aware that when using it "converted" to longer focal lengths LOTS more bellows extension is required.

[Lou Baleur]

I just started to understand what separation is. I recently bought a protar because I thought I knew what I was doing. Now I feel like I've been made a fool because the protar double is supposedly made of two elements of four cells. So with four cells, I'm going to have a lot of separation because it's an old lens and the balsam is rotted. Why is there nothing but misinformation on the internet? There is information, but it is then recounted by others. How do you know the truth? This is very disappointing. Even here, it seems that there are secrets that only special people know and talk about in code. I'm sorry if I sound suspicious, but I've been burned now more than once from people here, and people who I dare not speak against because of their reputation here and my lowly one.

[Steven Tribe]

two elements of four cells

Rather 2 cells of four elements.


No lens over 100 years old is going to be 100% perfect. Even if there is no sign of edge yellowing, the balsam layer in any vintage lens will not be as crystal clear as it once was. The good thing is that further deterioration is very slow and as they say "will have no obvious effects on imaging quality" in your lifetime. The OP's photo shows a lens that may well be OK as far as edge damage - but probably is more doubtful due to the central "patching". Separation is never the "death" of the lens! It is rectifiable - unlike gross scratching and missing elements or cells.

For me, personally, I treat Balsam problems as a lesser evil than missing mounting flanges! But I understand that not everyone has the DIY bug as I have. So I always redo balsam on any lens I sell - even with just yellow edges.

Your Protar VIIa lens is certain not a difficult one to re-balsam

[Michael E]

Why is there nothing but misinformation on the internet? There is information, but it is then recounted by others. How do you know the truth? This is very disappointing.

Sometimes, nothing can replace personal experience.

When buying cars of 20+ years or lenses 100+ years, general information on the type and brand is only half the truth. Individual condition, height of expectation, knowledge of the seller play important roles, too. Pick up the item in person and inspect it closely - or gamble. I personally have fared well with the gamble, bought cameras and lenses on this forum and on ebay, and have enjoyed the gear immensely.

[mdarnton]

. . . because the protar double is supposedly made of two elements of four cells. . .
Why is there nothing but misinformation on the internet?

Asks the man who has just made the incorrect statement on the internet that "the protar double is supposedly made of two elements of four cells." Now any time someone searches "protar", that little tidbit of misinformation is going to pop up. Forever.

Question answered! The next time you want to get bent about misinformation on the internet, look in the mirror. That's exactly how it happens.

[Louis Pacilla]

Asks the man who has just made the incorrect statement on the internet that "the protar double is supposedly made of two elements of four cells." Now any time someone searches "protar", that little tidbit of misinformation is going to pop up. Forever.

Question answered! The next time you want to get bent about misinformation on the internet, look in the mirror. That's exactly how it happens.

AMEN Brother! I had typed out the same sentiment and decided to just let it go. But then I read your post and see my feeling on his post match yours EXACTLY. You have to research study and learn then buy. I mean if your confusing elements w/ cells and the Balsam is dried out NOT rotted. It's a Double Protar or series VIIa not protar double. Not 2 elements w/ four cells. Two cells w/ four elements glued together in each cell.

[Jim Noel]

It's worth what you're prepared to pay for it, be aware they can suffer badly from separation which can be seen around the edges in the photo. Personally I wouldn't pay more than $100 unless it was in excellent condition.

It should be 12" both cells, and Front cell 21", Rear cell 28"

Ian

Actually there were several combinations of focal lengths, not just this one. Not all will cover 8x10.

[Fotoguy20d]

Actually there were several combinations of focal lengths, not just this one. Not all will cover 8x10.

The OPs lens is marked 8x10 and f7. It's a 12-19-25. The 12-21-28 is f6.8. Both of those combinations (and all permutations of the 4 cells) will cover 8x10. Any TR triple with cells shorter than 19 will not cover 8x10.

Dan

[Louis Pacilla]

This is the later version of 25" & 19.5" cells to make a 12" f7 lens to cover 8x10 & was manufactured in Fairport N.Y.

Versus the earlier version of 28" & 19.5" cells to make a 12" f6.8 lens to cover 8x10 and manufactured in Rochester N.Y.


The OPs lens is marked 8x10 and f7. It's a 12-19-25. The 12-21-28 is f6.8. Both of those combinations (and all permutations of the 4 cells) will cover 8x10. Any TR triple with cells shorter than 19 will not cover 8x10.

Dan

[DrTang]

Sometimes, nothing can replace personal experience.

When buying cars of 20+ years or lenses 100+ years, general information on the type and brand is only half the truth.

At lease no one can re-wire a lens in surprising ways

[Craig Roberts]

I have had a couple of these lenses an found them to perform well. As Charis Weston noted in her book "Through Another Lens"; for the Guggenheim travels, Edward (Weston) had a Turner Reich 12-21-28 inch lens. he did quite well with it.

here is the last one I used from a few years ago:

126893