Ilford Classic & Selenium Toning

[rcjtapio]

The Ilford Classic paper has been out for a while now & everybody knows it can be selenium toned......but.......I have not seen many comments on times & dilutions for selenium toning. One thread had 1 + 10 for 3.5 minutes. Has anyone experimented to find the time that works best before the browns and the purples destroy the print?

Rick

[StoneNYC]

You'll have to test it and report your findings I guess?

[bob carnie]

Rick

I have used this paper and I did not change my methods of toning.. I would be completely surprised to learn that this paper is significantly different in the toning stages , that some simple tests with existing dilutions and times give.


The Ilford Classic paper has been out for a while now & everybody knows it can be selenium toned......but.......I have not seen many comments on times & dilutions for selenium toning. One thread had 1 + 10 for 3.5 minutes. Has anyone experimented to find the time that works best before the browns and the purples destroy the print?

Rick

[Eric Biggerstaff]

I tone it at 1+10 and I do find it tones much more quickly than the old MGFB IV and to a greater extent. You have to test for your own process. I do it by taking a work print and cutting it into 8 pieces then on the back of each piece number them 1- 8. Then wet them, and put all into the toning bath. At one minute intervals, take the appropriate number piece out and put it into you water bath (at 1 minute take #1 out, etc.). I then rebuild the print on my viewing board at my sink and observe the results.

But, everyone has a different testing method, just use the one that works best for you.

[John Olsen]

I tone it at 1+10 and I do find it tones much more quickly than the old MGFB IV and to a greater extent.

Thanks for this information. Any experience yet on capacity per gallon?

[Tin Can]

I tone it at 1+10 and I do find it tones much more quickly than the old MGFB IV and to a greater extent. You have to test for your own process. I do it by taking a work print and cutting it into 8 pieces then on the back of each piece number them 1- 8. Then wet them, and put all into the toning bath. At one minute intervals, take the appropriate number piece out and put it into you water bath (at 1 minute take #1 out, etc.). I then rebuild the print on my viewing board at my sink and observe the results.

But, everyone has a different testing method, just use the one that works best for you.

That's a good system Eric.

[Peter Lewin]

I haven't pushed the selenium toning to the point of turning really purple or brown, only to the point where the tone starts to move towards purple, since I am toning more for permanence than major color change. Bob's testing scenario sounds excellent to get a fuller set of data points. One variable rarely mentioned is toner temperature. Higher temperature speeds up the toning process, and I typically heat my toner up to about 90F. This approach is mentioned in various articles on toning. But my overall observation is that the old MG IV FB really didn't change color at all, the new Classic does.

As to capacity, I reuse Kodak Rapid Selenium pretty much indefinitely. I filter the toner after each use, using a coffee filter and funnel to transfer it back from the tray to the storage bottle. If the toning action gets too slow, I add a little fresh KRS. This approach was suggested very long ago by Fred Picker, and described in detail on this Forum by Doremus Scudder. Using this approach, the toning tray is simply water and toner; the next tray is hypo clearing agent, and from there into the washer. You separate the toner from the hypo clear because the later reaches capacity relatively quickly, while the toner itself is very long lived.

[Bruce Barlow]

I, too, follow Fred's method. When I was testing papers long ago, I used 1:20, and replenished a little after each session. Replenishment was entirely unscientific. The coffee filtration is a great idea - I'll have to try it.

It was expected that different papers would take different times to tone to the same point (which is only a little, and I was trying to match them).

The big surprise was when the SAME paper toned at different times depending on the print developer I had used! Egad! The difference was not small, either, but panic in the darkroom was the norm, trying to get sheets uniformly toned when they started turning. Wish I'd had a suitable assistant to record the times, but alas. I pondered whether the toning time would be different in different fixers, but grew weak at the idea of more testing. I took a nap instead.

The moral was to be flexible on the recipe, and always compare against an untoned print. Having a "set" time was a recipe for inferior results.

I add a little Balanced Alkali to the toner, per Fred's advice. Don't know why, but so far it hasn't hurt.

[Doremus Scudder]

.... The big surprise was when the SAME paper toned at different times depending on the print developer I had used! Egad! The difference was not small, either, but panic in the darkroom was the norm, trying to get sheets uniformly toned when they started turning. Wish I'd had a suitable assistant to record the times, but alas. I pondered whether the toning time would be different in different fixers, but grew weak at the idea of more testing. I took a nap instead.

The moral was to be flexible on the recipe, and always compare against an untoned print. Having a "set" time was a recipe for inferior results...

I have found this as well. Not only do different developers affect the way a given paper tones, so does developer exhaustion and contrast grade used with VC papers. Add to that the variables of bleaching (which changes emulsion characteristics too), toner exhaustion (which increases toning time with each print toned) and the fact that image content and tone distribution can significantly affect toning rates, and it's pretty easy to see that toning with time and temperature is just not going to yield consistent results.

I use a visual method, keeping an untoned print handy for comparison and pulling the toning print when the desired image tone change is reached. Time is irrelevant except making sure that it is neither too long or too short for comfort and accurate print evaluation.

For those who "just tone for permanence": You should know that the degree of permanence achieved by selenium toning is directly related to the change in image tone. No change in image tone? No significant increase in image permanence... I tone for aesthetic reasons. I fix, wash and stabilize for permanence.

Best,

Doremus

[Bruce Barlow]

I have found this as well. Not only do different developers affect the way a given paper tones, so does developer exhaustion and contrast grade used with VC papers. Add to that the variables of bleaching (which changes emulsion characteristics too), toner exhaustion (which increases toning time with each print toned) and the fact that image content and tone distribution can significantly affect toning rates, and it's pretty easy to see that toning with time and temperature is just not going to yield consistent results.

I use a visual method, keeping an untoned print handy for comparison and pulling the toning print when the desired image tone change is reached. Time is irrelevant except making sure that it is neither too long or too short for comfort and accurate print evaluation.

For those who "just tone for permanence": You should know that the degree of permanence achieved by selenium toning is directly related to the change in image tone. No change in image tone? No significant increase in image permanence... I tone for aesthetic reasons. I fix, wash and stabilize for permanence.

Best,

Doremus


Yup.

[Michael R]

The Ilford Classic paper has been out for a while now & everybody knows it can be selenium toned......but.......I have not seen many comments on times & dilutions for selenium toning. One thread had 1 + 10 for 3.5 minutes. Has anyone experimented to find the time that works best before the browns and the purples destroy the print?

Rick

I found I got a nice "neutral" with KRST at a dilution of 1+20 to 1+30 for 5 minutes at 21C. I was used to working at 1+10 with MGIV but Classic tones more and faster. It also starts out with a different print colour than MGIV.

Note the developer can have an effect on how this goes too. As others have said you'll have to experiment, and we all judge print colour differently even under the same lighting. I like to make a set of comparative "swatches" using a fixed time/temp and different dilutions. Then I'll sometimes go further experimenting with different times. But generally I'm just going for a neutral tone.

[Peter Lewin]

The problem I've found with "aesthetics" is in judging change in the tone from un-toned paper, and determining how much change one wanted. It always seemed to me that for a long time papers had a slightly greenish tone; the selenium changed that to a much more pleasant blue-purple tone. (For Bruce's amusement/info, as a long-time Picker fan, I used to use a lot of ZoneVI paper and developer). So "in those days" comparison to an untoned print in water bath provided an easy-to-use baseline. But the newer Ilford papers, like MG IV FB, were pretty neutral to begin with, so it was hard to get much obvious change; in fact, with MG IV I found it almost impossible. Switching to the newer Ilford Classic, there is once again an easily visible change in tone with selenium.

[Michael Wesik]

The Ilford Classic paper has been out for a while now & everybody knows it can be selenium toned......but.......I have not seen many comments on times & dilutions for selenium toning. One thread had 1 + 10 for 3.5 minutes. Has anyone experimented to find the time that works best before the browns and the purples destroy the print?

Rick

Hey Rick,

Not to piggyback too much onto these other posts but the Classic paper is definitely more responsive to toning applications relative to MGIV. The fact that you describe selenium's colour shift as destroying the print suggests that you might be better off staying with a 1+20 dilution and manipulate the temp and time to your taste. You can't really go wrong as long as you give yourself enough time to pull your prints at the right point.

That being said, depending on how many prints you plan to process, my preference - as passed on to me by a few commercial printers - is to use a stronger developer and toner to ensure that developing and toning times are as constant as possible when processing a series of a given image - identically developed prints will tone identically. I would not, however, standardize developing and toning times for other prints unless your image, variables and conditions are about the same.

Best of luck!

Michael

[Keith Pitman]

Fred Newman has a couple of videos on testing for toning times and dilutions on You Tube. You can do these tests visually without a densitometer or computer. Here's the first: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9uvwdsLjXwg

[Roger Cole]

I haven't pushed the selenium toning to the point of turning really purple or brown, only to the point where the tone starts to move towards purple, since I am toning more for permanence than major color change. Bob's testing scenario sounds excellent to get a fuller set of data points. One variable rarely mentioned is toner temperature. Higher temperature speeds up the toning process, and I typically heat my toner up to about 90F. This approach is mentioned in various articles on toning. But my overall observation is that the old MG IV FB really didn't change color at all, the new Classic does.

As to capacity, I reuse Kodak Rapid Selenium pretty much indefinitely. I filter the toner after each use, using a coffee filter and funnel to transfer it back from the tray to the storage bottle. If the toning action gets too slow, I add a little fresh KRS. This approach was suggested very long ago by Fred Picker, and described in detail on this Forum by Doremus Scudder. Using this approach, the toning tray is simply water and toner; the next tray is hypo clearing agent, and from there into the washer. You separate the toner from the hypo clear because the later reaches capacity relatively quickly, while the toner itself is very long lived.

I've heard from many people that MGIV "didn't change color at all" but it's way different from my experience. I compared MGIV to MCC 110 and found at 1+19 dilution (room temperature, probably low 70s) the MCC 110 moved very slightly cooler with a slight increase in D-Max but basically never went purple. I had to stop MGIV at about four minutes or it got too purple for my tastes.

I'm expecting to have to increase dilution or at least control temperature and monitor times closely on the new paper rather than just toning by inspection. First I have to find time to get back in the darkroom and use up my existing stock of MCC 110 and MGIV though. :(

EDIT: Read the rest of the thread - I had never heard about developer changing toning though it can of course change the starting color so that makes sense. I use LPD of which I'm a big fan. And that's a good point about time and temperature that Doremus makes. I will probably just have to go from 1+19 to 1+29 or so. It's easier to not over shoot where you want the tone to be if toning proceeds fairly slowly.