candidates for architecture and easy set-up/take-down?

[quixoticcassandra]

Hi Folks,

Up until now, I've been using a Mamiya 645 with a shift lens. It has worked well for years, but I'd like to get a bit more rise (the Mamiya has a max of 16mm), and a bit more film exposure (than the current 6 x 4.5).

Most of my serious work is done on holidays, with a limited amount of time in a castle or a cathedral, etc (often with my wife sitting somewhere nearby, wondering why I'm taking so darn long).

So I'm currently looking for something that's fairly quick to set up, and:
1) reasonably light
2) capable of taking a lens with a fairly wide angle of view, like 75 to 90 degrees
3) 120 film
4) capable of rise of 25mm or more
5) $2,000 or less (with lens)
6) capable of taking a lens of f/5.6 or fairly wide aperture for ease of focusing

Anything other than rise and fall isn't really needed.

The fotoman and sylvestri and Alpa look intriguing, but they're somewhat pricey, and even the fotoman looked a bit large when seen sitting in someone's hand. The Dayi and the Gaoersi look intriguing, but some of the existing feedback on them doesn't really inspire confidence.

I was looking at the chamonix and Shen Hao 4x5's, but I'm wondering if there might be something in the field camera range which could be folded up without having to take off the lens (maybe with a recessed board).

And would I automatically need something with wide angle or bag bellows? (most focusing is done on objects at least 50m away, and with a fair amount of rise). Are most field cameras foldable with wide angle or bag bellows?

The Ebony's with the rigid backs and the short rails might be just the ticket...if I could find one for a reasonable price.


Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Evan

[Bob Salomon]

And the Technikardan and Technikardan S

[Oren Grad]

I was looking at the chamonix and Shen Hao 4x5's, but I'm wondering if there might be something in the field camera range which could be folded up without having to take off the lens (maybe with a recessed board).

Look at the Shen-Hao TFC and XPO non-folding models.

[Ari]

I'd recommend a Linhof Technikardan S (45 or 23); for architecture, it's tough to beat. They can be had for under $2k, and there is one for sale on the forum at the moment.
Failing that, a cheap and compact package with lots of movements is one of the Wistas: RF, VX or SP. It is a folding field camera with surprising versatility, and very tough as well.
Both cameras are fairly precise instruments, but the Linhof is in a class of its own in every respect.

[quixoticcassandra]

Thanks everyone. Yes, the Linhof is mouth-watering. And I see that there is one on ebay right now for $1,500. (apparently there is a classified sub-forum on this site, but I can't seem to find it).

The Wista RF. I didn't know that there was another rangefinder in existence. And no shortage of Wista's on ebay, either. Thanks for that.

And the Shen Hao's do look nice.

What has just caught my eye, though is the Ebony RSW45. Only 1.6 kg's.

[quixoticcassandra]

I'm leaning more and more toward the field cameras with the really, really short rail/beds. Like the Ebony RSW45 and the Shen Hao TFC45. Am I missing any others?

[quixoticcassandra]

Now, I'm back to equivocating between the Plaubel Proshift 69W and an Ebony/Shen Hao. If anyone wants to try and sway my decision either way, don't be shy.

[Oren Grad]

(apparently there is a classified sub-forum on this site, but I can't seem to find it)

You can access that after you've been a member for 30 days.

[Ken Lee]

With short lenses (required for medium format film) focused at a distance you'll want a bag bellows.

Make sure your camera has interchangeable bellows and that someone makes an affordable/available bag bellows.

[Ari]

I'm leaning more and more toward the field cameras with the really, really short rail/beds. Like the Ebony RSW45 and the Shen Hao TFC45. Am I missing any others?

Yes, the Wistas also have short beds and interchangeable bellows. And you can leave it out in the rain and snow. :)

[Tim Meisburger]

Ebony!

Just kidding. I only have the Ebony so cannot compare. But I'm guessing they all will do what you need, so the choice then becomes cost or weight or intangibles. Which one do you like best? The warmth of wood or the cold precision of steel?

The For Sale forum will become available after you have been a member of the forum for 30 days. This restriction apparently keeps down the spam.

Welcome to the forum!

[Robert Opheim]

For architecture I bought the Technikardan because it has an interchangeable bellows ( with both a long regular bellows and a bag bellows) and endless movements. I use rise the most with buildings but do use shifts and tilts. Linhof isn't the least expensive. It has a number of accessories - but not as many as a system view camera like a Sinar. The Technikardan weight is more that a number of cameras but not bad. It folds up for transportation. I presently shoot lenses from 75mm to 450mm with this camera - it will take shorter lenses for those hard to photograph interiors.

[Louis Pacilla]

Now, I'm back to equivocating between the Plaubel Proshift 69W and an Ebony/Shen Hao. If anyone wants to try and sway my decision either way, don't be shy.

Just go w/ the one that moves you.:) You can always sell if it doesn't suit you and try the next.

[Christopher Barrett]

For architecture on 120, I think it's hard to beat an Arca Swiss 6x9 F compact. I have one I might part with...

http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/image/cache/10-400x400.jpg

[quixoticcassandra]

I had a look at the page on pro's and con's of 6x9's vs 4x5's roundup2x3.html (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/roundup2x3.html). Looks like I'll be going for the latter.

Then I had a look at the lens spec page /lenses/LF4x5in.html (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html). Looks like the Nikkor 90mm f/4.5 will be a good starting point. Lots of them on ebay at decent prices, and it'll allow me 53mm's of rise and 105 degrees of coverage.

Still have to decide on the Shen Hao TFC45 versus the Ebony RSW45. And the price of the latter will likely determine that choice (the Robert White website has been down for a while, so I haven't been able to find out).

Anyways, I'd like to thank everyone for their input, and I'd especially like to thank the dedicated souls at this site who (for example) put together the two pages linked above.

[Bernice Loui]

Best value and most system capability and flexibility would be a Sinar.

Field cameras tend to have difficulties with bag bellows and significant amounts of camera movements combined. Flat bed camera will need to have a drop bed to get the most capability when using wide angle lenses.

It is possible to put a 47mm lens on a Sinar with a bag bellows and have many inches of camera movement (with geared precision if the added weight is acceptable) and a roll film back.

The camera will need to be properly leveled for architecture images, then required camera movements applied and ...

What most focus on initially when choosing a camera is ease of use, low weight, quick set up and take down traded off for camera capability. A monorail camera can be stored with lens on in case ready to be used once removed and put back in the case as a complete unit. When precision image making demands are needed, non-standard or exotic lenses are needed, field or similar cameras may not meet these requirements.

Adding to this roll film backs and capability to use most any optics including barrel lenses with the Sinar shutter and a LOT more.

There have been more than a few complete Sinar systems for $350 (one currently on the Local Criagslist) with lens, complete camera with extras, film holders and more. This is driven by the low market demand for Sinar monorail cameras and the current glut of them on the market.

Sinar is not the ideal choice for those who back-pack or do not want to deal with a monorail for a host of reasons or what ever else. There is no ideal camera, there is a camera that meets specific trade-offs for a given user.

If time is pressed, most any view camera may not be ideal due to the innate set up requirements. Which brings back to a roll film camera being the better choice for these needs.


Bernice




Hi Folks,

Up until now, I've been using a Mamiya 645 with a shift lens. It has worked well for years, but I'd like to get a bit more rise (the Mamiya has a max of 16mm), and a bit more film exposure (than the current 6 x 4.5).

Most of my serious work is done on holidays, with a limited amount of time in a castle or a cathedral, etc (often with my wife sitting somewhere nearby, wondering why I'm taking so darn long).

So I'm currently looking for something that's fairly quick to set up, and:
1) reasonably light
2) capable of taking a lens with a fairly wide angle of view, like 75 to 90 degrees
3) 120 film
4) capable of rise of 25mm or more
5) $2,000 or less (with lens)
6) capable of taking a lens of f/5.6 or fairly wide aperture for ease of focusing

Anything other than rise and fall isn't really needed.

The fotoman and sylvestri and Alpa look intriguing, but they're somewhat pricey, and even the fotoman looked a bit large when seen sitting in someone's hand. The Dayi and the Gaoersi look intriguing, but some of the existing feedback on them doesn't really inspire confidence.

I was looking at the chamonix and Shen Hao 4x5's, but I'm wondering if there might be something in the field camera range which could be folded up without having to take off the lens (maybe with a recessed board).

And would I automatically need something with wide angle or bag bellows? (most focusing is done on objects at least 50m away, and with a fair amount of rise). Are most field cameras foldable with wide angle or bag bellows?

The Ebony's with the rigid backs and the short rails might be just the ticket...if I could find one for a reasonable price.


Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Evan

[Lachlan 717]

There is no NEED to get the Ebony. It won't produce better images than cheaper bodies. Remember that these are simply boxes that have a lens at one end and a film holder at the rear.

iMO, you would be better served getting the Shen/Cham and using the significant savings to buy lenses etc.

The Nikkor is a magnificent lens; however, you will need a centre filter if you're going to shoot 'Chromes.

[Amfooty]

The RZ67 with 75mm shift would be an option if you wanted to stick with medium format. The only category where it doesn't fit is reasonably light... It's a pretty heavy camera unfortunately. But it would be somewhat familiar coming from the 645.

[Bernice Loui]

Got an Arca Swiss 6x9 some years ago with the idea it would be easier and simpler to set up and use. While the overall system is lower in weight than the Sinar 5x7, the set up and hassle factor is not much different. Viewing is more difficult due to the smaller ground glass. ATM, it has a viewing ground glass and another back with the roll film holder, which must be swapped out to put the image on film. This is quite different than putting a film holder into a larger camera. The alternative is to use 2x3 film holders with cut film. Overall, 6x9 appears to be a bit more hassle than 4x5 with lesser advantages.

All of which put the 5x7 back into service with the Arca 6x9 sitting.


Bernice



For architecture on 120, I think it's hard to beat an Arca Swiss 6x9 F compact. I have one I might part with...

[quixoticcassandra]

So I made a bit of a rash decision. It was close to 10 pm (my time), and I just happened to notice an Arca Swiss 6x9 monorail on ebay with only 8 hrs left on the posting. Less than $1,000, supposedly in EX+++ condition (and the photos didn't contradict the claim), and the seller had a stellar rating. So I pressed the button, forgetting all about the research I had done on lenses previously. Oh well, live and learn.

Anyways, I guess I'll go over to the lenses section of the forum and ask a few questions over there.

[neil poulsen]

Interesting. Did you purchase the old-style 6x9 Arca, with the silver (vs black) function carriers? The function carriers hold the standards.

[Bernice Loui]

This Arca Swiss?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Arca-swiss-6x9-view-camera-Excellent-condition-from-Japan-/331412626980?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item4d29bb5e24&nma=true&si=QaC53Y67hLmVrGflXHdbCWruUtE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


Same one I got years ago.

It has the same standard bellows that does not work well with any lens less than 65mm.

Lens boards will be needed. The recessed lens boards are expensive.

Check to see if the plastic front and rear stand frames are cracked as this appears to be common.

Roll film holders will be needed. Removing the ground glass to put the roll film holder on for each image is not fun at all. This prompted me to get another rear for the Arca for just the roll film holder.

The viewer might be OK. The Arca Swiss one made for this camera works OK, I'll use ground glass viewing more then the magnifier viewer.

Oh, cost of extras for Arca Swiss is often wow, just wow expensive.

Given all this, a 4x5 might have been a better choice.


Bernice

[quixoticcassandra]

This Arca Swiss?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Arca-swiss-6x9-view-camera-Excellent-condition-from-Japan-/331412626980?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item4d29bb5e24&nma=true&si=QaC53Y67hLmVrGflXHdbCWruUtE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


Same one I got years ago.

It has the same standard bellows that does not work well with any lens less than 65mm.

Lens boards will be needed. The recessed lens boards are expensive.

Check to see if the plastic front and rear stand frames are cracked as this appears to be common.

Roll film holders will be needed. Removing the ground glass to put the roll film holder on for each image is not fun at all. This prompted me to get another rear for the Arca for just the roll film holder.

The viewer might be OK. The Arca Swiss one made for this camera works OK, I'll use ground glass viewing more then the magnifier viewer.

Oh, cost of extras for Arca Swiss is often wow, just wow expensive.

Given all this, a 4x5 might have been a better choice.


Bernice

Yup, it's the same one. Thanks for the info. Looks like it'll be a learning experience.

[quixoticcassandra]

Roll film holders will be needed. Removing the ground glass to put the roll film holder on for each image is not fun at all. This prompted me to get another rear for the Arca for just the roll film holder.



Can I ask which roll film holder you used? Or which you'd recommend? I believe they take any Graflock-type, but I was leaning toward the Horseman.

[neil poulsen]

The older style Arca Swiss cameras will take Horseman backs. They will not take Wista. I had one of these cameras just a few months ago. As you pointed out, it will also take the medium format Graflex backs.

Let me offer a few comments:

> The shortest lens you can use on this camera without a recessed board is 70mm or 75mm. But for Architecture, you will want to be able to use a 58mm lens. By my calculations, a 55mm or 58mm lens on a 2.25x2.75 format corresponds to about a 90mm for 4x5. A 90mm lens tends to be the most used for architecture on 4x5. (At least, was the most used before digital.) There's a 27mm square recessed lens board for your camera currently sold by Quality Camera on EBay. Consider its purchase. The recess is square. Don't mess with the circular recessed lensboards; there's little enough room for the shutter in the square recess boards.

> It's also possible to find square 2" recessed lensboards. (They don't come up for auction very often.) This would enable you to use a 45mm or 47mm lens for the really wide photos.

> When putting in a set of bellows, I found it best on the older and newer style cameras to remove the front lensboard when installing the bellows on the front standard, and to remove the back when mounting the bellows on the back standard. In this manner, one can manage installing the bellows from from both sides of each standard.

I enjoyed my camera while I had it. Hope that you enjoy yours. It's a pretty nice camera.

> You will not be able to use current recessed 6x9 Arca boards on your camera. It may not even be possible to use current flat lens boards on your camera. (I forget whether or not one can use current flat lensboards on your camera.)

> You also definitely need a bag bellows for architecture. I had a spare set of frames, so Keith from Custom Bellows (in the UK) made me an excellent, single-pleat, bag bellows that enabled me to use a 47mm, 58mm, and 75mm lens. You can use a 100mm lens with movement without the bag bellows.

> It's nice that your camera came with a viewer. Pretty clever, by its design.

> One difference between your camera and current 6x9 Arca cameras, is that the earlier model rely on foam seals to maintain a light-tight chamber in the camera. You'll want to make sure that.

I enjoyed my camera while I had it. Hope that you enjoy yours. It's a pretty nice camera.

[quixoticcassandra]

> The shortest lens you can use on this camera without a recessed board is 70mm or 75mm. But for Architecture, you will want to be able to use a 58mm lens. By my calculations, a 55mm or 58mm lens on a 2.25x2.75 format corresponds to about a 90mm for 4x5. A 90mm lens tends to be the most used for architecture on 4x5. (At least, was the most used before digital.) There's a 27mm square recessed lens board for your camera currently sold by Quality Camera on EBay. Consider its purchase. The recess is square. Don't mess with the circular recessed lensboards; there's little enough room for the shutter in the square recess boards.

> It's also possible to find square 2" recessed lensboards. (They don't come up for auction very often.) This would enable you to use a 45mm or 47mm lens for the really wide photos.



Thanks Neil. I wasn't able to find the Quality Camera lensboard on ebay. Wondering if this one would work:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Off-Center-Copal-0-17mm-Recessed-Lens-Board-For-Arca-Swiss-6x9-format-/271312498076?pt=US_Lens_Boards&hash=item3f2b7c2d9c

[Bill_1856]

It's old and it's cheap and it's out of favor, but I suggest that you have a look at a 4x5 Busch Pressman. You'll need to put in a Fresnel screen.

[neil poulsen]

See private message for the recessed lensboard from Quality Camera.

[quixoticcassandra]

It's old and it's cheap and it's out of favor, but I suggest that you have a look at a 4x5 Busch Pressman. You'll need to put in a Fresnel screen.

Sorry. I already sunk a wad of cash into an Arca Swiss 6x9.