Toyo 810M Front Standard Modification

[Ari]

Hello,

Challenge I:
The 810M, while a wonderful and amazing camera, has one feature I do not like: base tilts on the front standard. It seems to add more work when I need tilt, because of the refocusing needed. It also seems less effective than axial tilt when I need to get, say, eyes and hands in focus for a portrait.
So, has anyone here modified their front standard in order to achieve axial tilt? Can you please PM me if you did? Thanks in advance.

OR

Challenge II:
Help me understand why base tilts are as good, or better than, axial tilts; maybe I'm upside-down on this whole issue. What's more, I'm not the most technically-sophisticated big-camera-type person.
I will be happy to learn something new, and even happier if you can explain it without charts, complicated focusing diagrams, or mathematics that prove the superiority of base tilts.

:)

Thank you

[tgtaylor]

I've found that its much easier if you refocus with the front standard after making a base tilt using the front standard. In other words confine all the focus/refocus movements to the same standard.

Thomas

[Ari]

I've found that its much easier if you refocus with the front standard after making a base tilt using the front standard. In other words confine all the focus/refocus movements to the same standard.

Thomas

Hmm, I'm surprised at that. Are you thinking of the G-series, by any chance?
Focusing using the M's front standard is very rough, at best, and very difficult at longer extensions while keeping a loupe pressed against the GG.
Further, my front standard is out of position when it's loosened, and "straightens up" when the standard is tightened. Whatever focusing made with the loose standard will have to be re-done when the standard is tightened down.

[tgtaylor]

Moving the front standard forward is the same as moving the rear standard backward. Moving the front standard backward is the same as moving the rear standard forward...

It's an enigma.

Thomas

[Ari]

Yes, but the controls for each are very different.
Rear focusing is buttery-smooth and precise; front focusing is crude, so the latter makes the job much more difficult.

[Ari]

Hmm, maybe a call to Grimes might help things.

[Old-N-Feeble]

The 810M is a fabulous camera but I suggest you search for a camera that better suits your needs before modifying it. If it turns out the mod is your best option then more power to you and the best of luck. However, I can no longer trust my own cognitive plasticity and fine motor skills to accomplish similar goals. Plus there is a question to readdress... it really worth the time and effort invested?

[Ari]

The 810M is a fabulous camera but I suggest you search for a camera that better suits your needs before modifying it.

If I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd keep my 810M, but I would also buy the 810MII. :) It's a great camera, and as perfect as can be for my needs and tastes.


If it turns out the mod is your best option then more power to you and the best of luck. However, I can no longer trust my own cognitive plasticity and fine motor skills to accomplish similar goals. Plus there is a question to readdress... it really worth the time and effort invested?

I am hoping somebody has done this mod and that it would be something that is not too costly to do; also, I wouldn't want the mod to adversely affect what is already a great camera.
But if the mod could be done for around $200-$300, I think then it would be the perfect field camera, bar none.

[tgtaylor]

The Toyo is a modular system with many of the parts are interchangeable between different models. The 810G and GII have "center" (i.e., axial) tilt. Could you swap-out the front standard and, if so, would the camera close?

Thomas

[Ari]

The Toyo is a modular system with many of the parts are interchangeable between different models. The 810G and GII have "center" (i.e., axial) tilt. Could you swap-out the front standard and, if so, would the camera close?

Thomas

I looked at the G's front standard, and it's too different to swap out. Many of the G parts would get in the way, and also add some weight.
What I thought I'd do is disassemble the front standard (I have the schematic here) and see what might be done; after that, I can take it to a good machinist and ask his opinion.
Or maybe there are a few machinists here who could offer an opinion if I were to post the schematic.
If it can't be done, or if the cost is exorbitant, I'll still love this camera and continue to work with the base tilt.

[Peter De Smidt]

With the extensions that you're working with, can you tilt the front standard forward while moving the rear standard closer? If you can watch on the ground glass, you should be able to keep the middle of the fame in focus while the top and bottom come into focus as you tilt and move the rear. (Or focus first on the far point, and then tilt + lessen extension until near point is also in focus.) You could also do some tests to see how much the rear needs to be moved up for a given amount of front tilt.

[tgtaylor]

I looked at the G's front standard, and it's too different to swap out. Without getting mine out to compare I's say that is a correct evaluation. Still though you may want to check with Adam at Grimes and see what he says. Personally I would leave it as it is as a base tilt camera which is probably the most efficient configuration for that camera.

Thomas

[Ari]

With the extensions that you're working with, can you tilt the front standard forward while moving the rear standard closer? If you can watch on the ground glass, you should be able to keep the middle of the fame in focus while the top and bottom come into focus as you tilt and move the rear. (Or focus first on the far point, and then tilt + lessen extension until near point is also in focus.) You could also do some tests to see how much the rear needs to be moved up for a given amount of front tilt.

Yes, that can be done, the first part of what you say. Doing the near/far focus is less successful, and I am sure that my poor technique is to blame. I am rusty on the finer points of camera movements, and could certainly stand a refresher course.
What gets me is how much re-focusing has to be done when using base tilt; I didn't seem to need as much re-focusing when I used axial tilt with other cameras.
That said, I know there are gaps in my education and technique, and trying to fill in some of them might make me appreciate base tilts more.
Thanks, Peter.


Without getting mine out to compare I's say that is a correct evaluation. Still though you may want to check with Adam at Grimes and see what he says. Personally I would leave it as it is as a base tilt camera which is probably the most efficient configuration for that camera.

Thomas

I am leaning towards agreeing with you on your last sentence; maybe it's folly on my part to want a feature that was left off the camera, I'm sure it was for a good reason.
Fantastic camera, I love it, and like I said, I'd buy another one with my lottery winnings.
Thanks, Thomas.

[Neal Chaves]

I used Deardorff 8X10 cameras for years before I saw a friend's Toyo 8X10 M and made the switch. The Toyo bellows was very poor quality with many pin holes and had to be replaced with a Western Bellows of "lifetime material", otherwise, the camera has been great. The Deardorffs had front axis tilt and rear base tilt like the Toyo. My first Deardorff did not have front swings. In practice, I hardly ever use front tilt or swing. It makes huge demands on lens covering power, something the inexpensive lenses I began 8X10 with did not have in abundance and which the wide lenses I like today also lack. The only reason to use front swing or tilt as opposed to back movements is to gain depth of focus without exagerating perspective, and most viewers find that same exagerated perpsective pleasing in an image with great depth of field.

[Ari]

The Toyo bellows was very poor quality with many pin holes and had to be replaced with a Western Bellows of "lifetime material"
Neal, do you know if Western Bellows is still operating? I have only found a Yellow Pages listing.


The Deardorffs had front axis tilt and rear base tilt like the Toyo.
The Toyo does not have front axis tilt.


The only reason to use front swing or tilt as opposed to back movements is to gain depth of focus without exagerating perspective, and most viewers find that same exagerated perpsective pleasing in an image with great depth of field
I use it often for portraits, to get both eyes in focus, or to get eyes and hands in focus; those movements get used more than when I am shooting architecture.

[Neal Chaves]

Ari,
I said the Deardorff has rear base tilt like the Toyo. I know what you mean about the eyes in a portrait, but I make head shots at small stops anyway. Most of the old time studio cameras did not even have front swing or tilt. I just called Westrn Bellows, but the owner says he is retired and suggested Turner Bellows in New York. Turner made/makes the bellows for Beseler enlargers. I have a set of Turner-made bellows for Toyo 45G that I bought used from ebay. They are thick and stiff and not as compressable as Toyo stock or Western but are rugged and light tight. I also rebuilt a G with a Shen Hao bellows from ebay that was made from US material. It was very nice, priced right and delivered quickly from China. I sold the camera soon after so I have no idea how it held up. For the Toyo M field cameras, you need to have a bellows that compresses well so tha the camera folds with no stress. Today, if I had to put on a new bellows I would go with the Shen Hao.

[Ari]

Thanks, Neal; I reread that sentence and I see how I mis-interpreted it.
I have heard good things about Turner Bellows, but you're right, the 810M needs different, lighter material.
I've had good experiences with eBay bellows, but it takes a few tries for them to send me the right size.

[Ari]

I disassembled the front standard last night, and found that there is a tongue-in-groove thing to allow the lens panel to slide up and down easily.
This mechanism has a few parts that would be very hard to keep if axial tilt were introduced.
So, I don't think it's worth the time and effort, and the camera is, for me, 99% perfect as it is.

Thank you for all the feedback.

[Old-N-Feeble]

RE bellows: I think you can buy Chinese-made bellows for the 810M on eBay. I bought one for my 810G and it's very nice. I don't know if it's appropriate for IR though. I had shutterfinger on the APUG forum install it for me and he did a great job.

[Ari]

Thanks, OnF!

[Ari]

From Adam at SK Grimes:

"We do not have any direct experience with this particular modification.
Based on images of the camera, it appears the guides on the front standards verticals would need to be modified to allow the frame to pivot.
This type of modification will put more stress on the knobs used to secure the frames vertical locations, as they will also be responsible for rotation.
On smaller lenses, this probably will not be a problem. One larger lenses, there may be an issue."

The price quoted for the work was extremely reasonable, so I asked about using two sets of knobs, one for rise, the other for tilt.
I'll update this thread should I hear back from Adam.

[Michael Kadillak]

I have used my Toyo 810M for more than 10 years in a myriad of complicated swing and tilt configurations as well as the Canham 8x10 woodie (that has individual rise and tilt knobs - what I feel you are asking for from Adam as to if this is possible) and never once have I felt that the Toyo was lacking any feature relative to base tilts only to get the photograph that would make me want to shoot it with the Canham over the Toyo.

I feel that precisely and optimally establishing your focal plane is the driver in this process not the camera controls (or the perceived lack thereof). What the Toyo has is a quick moving front standard slider that allows you to move it for and aft quicker than a geared alternative. The lens panel has no differentiation as to if it was placed in its proper configuration via a panel tilt or a base tilt.

My recommendation is to get a head set magnifier and a flashlight to help you with the GG when you are stopping down once you have mastered where to set your focal plane with both tilts and swings (or both).

[Ari]

Hi Michael,
Goodness knows I could stand to learn and improve upon more technique.
I'm aware that, in the grand scheme of cameras, this is a very minor concern, and it shouldn't detract from what is, essentially, a fantastic camera.
I wanted to put this out there in case it had been done before; we're all pretty much in agreement that the camera is great as it is.
Seeing that there may be a possibility to do this on a small budget by excellent technicians would save me the trouble of getting a Canham. :)
But I would not want to risk any of the camera's function (which is superb) for a small gain in features.
If Adam at Grimes can tell me that function will be unaffected, I would go ahead with this.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Hey, Ari, you want what you want and there's certainly no harm in asking. I think this is an interesting thread and someone may still chime in with a solution.

[Ari]

Well, it's a fancy more than a want; I feel like a spoiled kid, asking for an extra scoop of ice cream when he already got the premium ice cream with sugar cone...without even asking!
It's also interesting to me as well, thanks OnF.

[Michael Kadillak]

There is not harm in wanting anything. But there is always a flip side to many issues. Case in point is that B&J and Deardorff (as just two examples) are cameras that have essentially a front rise and a front tilt married into the same friction tensioned control knob. Adjust the rise and the tilt angle likely needs checking. In the bigger scheme of things the value of the 810M from my perspective is that when you pull the front standard to its zero position everything is instantly at right angles to the bed and front rises are controlled as perfectly in line.

Like my F&S 12x20 that has a second set of bellows and a base tilt only, I honestly feel that if Adam tells you that the costs or the time away from your camera preclude you from going down this road there is absolutely nothing lost. One of the reasons that my Canham 8x10 does not come out of my camera bag as often relative to the Toyo 810M is that it has the secondary controls on the front panel. More details to check in ensuring that systems are ALL a go to make the image.

Again I can only reiterate taking a step back to make sure that you have your focus plane technique dead to center on. This requirement was imposed upon me by ULF cameras and the costs of film in these large calibers. When these skills become properly and satisfactorily honed the camera controls (and the perception that more are necessary) become a secondary issue particularly with the Toyo 810M. Make an adjustment to a camera that has likely never been done before and understand that it is no longer a stock 810M and the resell market will reflect this condition. The fact that I have never heard of anyone wanting or making this modification speaks for itself. Just my $0.02.

[Ari]

Michael, you are 100% right, and I've decided to drop the idea for the moment, until I absolutely figure out for myself whether I can master base tilts or not, as far as my own applications are concerned. My lack of proficiency in using base tilts, as well as the frustrating results I obtained, were what spurred me to consider the mod in the first place.

Personally, I think, if done successfully, this kind of modification would probably increase the value of the camera; it would certainly be the first in existence that I would know about.
My last 8x10 camera (Kodak Master) had both base and axial tilt, I found no difficulty in using one knob for tilt and rise, but maybe I'm remembering through rose-coloured glasses. I did sell the KMV, after all.
One distinct advantage that base + axial tilt would bring to the 810M would be to easily increase rail extension by using the axial tilt and base tilt in tandem, much like the KMV is capable of.

I just got another reply from Adam at Grimes:
"If we were to use two sets of screws, one to secure the rise movement and another to secure the tilt, then we'll need to introduce a new bracket between the front standard and the frame.
We would need to examine the front standard to develop a working solution."

The quoted price range for the work is higher, but reasonable.
I'm also impressed by Adam's research and knowledge: he expressed his unfamiliarity with the 810M in his previous message, yet he knows almost exactly what would be needed to do should I decide to try out this procedure.
So, I might embark on this quixotic adventure if I know I'll be away for a while and won't be using the 8x10; I'll send it to Adam and see what he says with the real camera in front of him.

[Cor]

Ari,

Perhaps below procedure from helpful, knowledgeable and respected member Doremus will be helpful to you on applying base tilts. It surely was helpful to me, and I sometimes do a few practice runs in the back yard or in my home "studio" when not have used my camera for some time:

For base tilts, which you likely have, the procedure is different and slightly more complicated, but easy once you get the hang of it. Here's my technique:

1. Regardless of which standard you are adjusting, focus first on an object in the desired plane of sharp focus at the bottom of the ground glass; this is usually a more distant object, but not always. Call this your bottom focus point (even though it might be the top of the inverted image).

2. Forget the loupe for this next step; use high-magnification reading glasses or your good close vision, you just need to get in the ballpark. First, pick an object in the desired plane of sharp focus that is at the top of the ground glass, your top focus point. Tilt slowly while watching the image until your chosen focus points top and bottom appear about equally out of focus. (The same "Lens Looks" and "Back Backs" rule applies here as well). And yes, you have to use both hands and not fumble around with the loupe to do this easily. Lock down the standard.

3. It helps to remember here that when you use base tilts, you always make the distance between lens and back longer and that refocusing requires you to make the camera shorter. At any rate, now refocus on your bottom focus point using your loupe.

4. Here's the critical step. Before adjusting anything, check your focus point at the top of the ground glass. If it is in focus, you lucked out and you have the right tilt. If not, keep looking at it through the loupe and move the focus knob a tiny bit in one direction only. (It doesn't matter which, but it's best to standardize on one when doing this.) If the focus on your chosen point gets better, you need to add a tiny bit of tilt in the same direction; if it gets worse, you need to add a tiny bit of tilt in the opposite direction (here again, it helps to think of making the bellows longer or shorter).

5. If the amount of tilt seems way out still, refocus on the bottom focus point and repeat step 2 keeping in mind that your adjustment this time will be only a fraction of the first adjustment. If the amount of tilt you applied at first is close, forget looking at the ground glass; simply apply a very tiny bit of tilt in the right direction.

6. Repeat steps 4 and 5 till you get both focus points in acceptable focus. With practice, you can do this in two or three iterations. I do.

Keep in mind, that it is a lot more complicated and time-consuming to describe all this than to actually do it. Once you master the technique, you'll be able to do this in just a few seconds.

Best,

Doremus

[Ari]

Cor,
Thank you; I will print this, study it and use it.
Very much appreciated.

[Michael Kadillak]

Two augmentations to the concise post by Cor.

First step even before you go to the GG is to visualize your focus plane and something to calibrate it with in your scene. If you are doing a swing - same principal.

Aspire to use the minimal movements possible to acquire desired levels of image sharpness.

With your magnifiers learn to watch the GG when stoping your lens down - way down. Relative image quality is an adapted skill.

Lastly, when you are stopping down check the corners for vignetting.

There was an article by Howard Bond in Photo Techniques a while back. I will find it and sent it to you Ari. Off to a photo meeting.

[Ari]

Thank you, Michael, very much appreciated.

[tgtaylor]

Ari,

For an excellent "how to" on base tilts, take a look at Fred Newman's excellent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JU-eHpk97Y. The base tilt discussion starts at about the 5 minute mark. Bear in mind that base tilt on his camera is on the rear standard.

Thomas

[Ari]

Thank you, Thomas.

[tgtaylor]

You're welcome Ari.