Stand Developing tanks/technique for 4x5

[RodinalDuchamp]

Hello. This is my first post so I will start with a little background. I did search for reference but did not find anything I thought useful to my particular set of circumstances.

I started shooting film about three years ago, I am a BFA major currently in college. My main rig until now has been a Bronica ETRS 645 MF. I have a pretty well equipped darkroom in my house, Omega D2 elnarger a variety of enlarging lenses/boards/trays etc. I would say that I am currently solidly intermediate to advanced intermediate in both making pictures and developing film and processing.

That being said I have taken the next step and purchased a Crown Graphic 4x5. I have been progressively regressing towards more and more manual control of everything I create and now seems like a good time to take this step as I am about 2 1/2 semesters from finishing my BFA, I will likely be able to get support and help from my mentors.

However I like to think that I am LARGELY self taught because I have been working on the same projects now for a year to a year and a half aside from school assignments.

OK - on to my question.

I have developed (no pun intended) a very deep love for stand developing in Rodinal 1:100 for about an hour. I have never had any issues with bromide drag because I agitate for about 30 seconds in the beginning and about 2 inversions at 30 minutes. I have had excellent results thus far with 645.

I would like to maintain a similar workflow with my 4x5 negatives but have run into so much opposing information online that I am a bit confused/overwhelmed and hope you fine sirs might be able to guide me.

A lot of the steel developing tanks I am finding are not light tight and even the plastic ones get bad reviews. I would like to be able to load the film in the dark and finish processing with the lights on. I need to be able to agitate with lights on. I have read about the taco method but this seems hit or miss with lots of people reporting underdeveloped areas.

I am currently looking at a nikon 4x5 tank which is selling for about $250 which I am uncomfortable buying because it seems a bit steep. I am also looking at JOBO 2521 tanks and 2509n reels these are a bit more feasible.

However before I decide to make the purchase which is not insignificant I want to hear what some seasoned developers have to say. Any advice/recommendations are appreciated.

PS - I am unwilling to forgo stand development.

[Bob Salomon]

The CombiPlan T will do that and if you connect a hose to it becomes a forced film washer as well!

Nikon is a Japanese camera company. Nikor tanks were a different company in the USA. No relation between them other then a similar name.

[tgtaylor]

[QUOTE]
I am currently looking at a nikon 4x5 tank which is selling for about $250 which I am uncomfortable buying because it seems a bit steep. I am also looking at JOBO 2521 tanks and 2509n reels these are a bit more feasible.[QUOTE]


Look at my post here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?118077-Jobo-2520-MultiTank-2-v2509-4X5-reel-for-hand-processing

As long as you do not contaminate the reels with (photoflo?) you won't have any problems. Note: I have switched from placing photoflo and final rinse (for color) in the tank and now use a plastic file-type box that originally came with sidewalk chalk.

Thomas

[Jac@stafford.net]

I used the Nikor tank for some time with adequate results. Just be sure the retaining band is included. Also note that there are two tanks that fit the reel, the one that comes with the kit, and one that is a tad bit taller so it holds more chemistry. It was originally for the very large Nikor 220 reels. Either tank works well enough. They were tight, nonleaking, but caps sometimes get switched and leak.

Frankly, I would not go back to the Nikor tank. $250 each is about what I sold mine for five years ago. I don't think they are worth that money.

The CombiPlan is my tank of choice now, and only for stand development (the rest is rocker or roller agitation). Sometimes I think I'm the only guy who does not find that it leaks, but I use it in a sink anyway.

Someone else can comment upon the Jobo. I've never used one.

Good luck and please keep us informed.
.

[Corran]

I've used the CombiPlan tank with semi-stand development (Rodinal 1:100 as well) with no problems.

I fill up the tank with the chemicals, load the holder in the dark, and dunk it in the tank. 30 seconds to a minute of initial agitation, and then another round of agitation at the halfway mark. No problems with uneven development. I rap the tank bottom onto the counter a couple times each cycle.

[Jac@stafford.net]

One tip on the CombiPlan. Filling it faster here (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photax.se%2Fmrkr%2Fdsr%2Fcombiplan.htm&edit-text=).

[jbenedict]

One tip on the CombiPlan. Filling it faster here (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photax.se%2Fmrkr%2Fdsr%2Fcombiplan.htm&edit-text=).

Excellent. Putting the tank on its side and filling through the bottom outlet and using the other outlet to bleed off air is a good idea.

[RodinalDuchamp]

It seems like you all have good things to say about the CombiPlan. I think that is where I will start aswell. Thanks for the links and advice, I'm very excited to dive into 4x5.

While we are on the same topic, do you all just hand your negatives with clothespins to dry? Or is there a better (less chance for scratches) less dangerous method?

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...]While we are on the same topic, do you all just hand your negatives with clothespins to dry? Or is there a better (less chance for scratches) less dangerous method?

I use the spring-type wooden clothespins. One pin on a corner to hold it to the line, film hung diagonal with another pin at the opposite corner. No curling issues so-far.

Once I dried the film in the CombiPlan after a rinse in distilled water and wetting agent. It worked, but took a long time due to some contact with the edge of the film.

[rbultman]

Mod54+Paterson tank

[Bob Salomon]

Excellent. Putting the tank on its side and filling through the bottom outlet and using the other outlet to bleed off air is a good idea.

No!!! The CombiPlan T is equipped with two light tight hose connectors. When you twist one a half turn it opens an air path. The top of the tank body has a trough that the chemistry pours into when filling properly from the top. The trough has openings to let the chemistry run down the sides without splattering on the film. Filling from the bottom does not prevent chemical splatter. Just be sure to re-tighten the light tight hose connector to reveal the air path to stop leaks when inverting. If air gets in then the chemistry can leak out!

[RodinalDuchamp]

Mod54+Paterson tank

I have seen this but it too has very mixed reviews. I have a Paterson tank already so it wouldn't be too much I think the mod54 is like $100 - but I still feel like its a slight gamble.

[rbultman]

I have seen this but it too has very mixed reviews. I have a Paterson tank already so it wouldn't be too much I think the mod54 is like $100 - but I still feel like its a slight gamble.

I understand. I am also "just" getting into 4x5. I bought the first version of the MOD54 from a forum member. I had no issues with it whatsoever, although I have only processed a total of 4 negatives using it. That is all I have managed to shoot since getting a 4x5 camera. I hear that the second version is easier to use. I chose the MOD54 because it was less of a deviation from my current roll development routine using Paterson tanks and reels. Frankly tray processing 4x5 in the dark scares me, admittedly and emotional response.

I practiced ahead of time with two sacrificial sheets. Once you get the hang of it, it is not difficult at all. I practiced loading maybe 3 times before using exposed sheets. I loaded 4 sheets when I processed. I used Obsidian Aqua my first time but am also looking to use Rodinal stand. All of my issues with 4x5 happened behind the camera, not during development.

There have also been reports of sheets coming loose during agitation. I did not experience this problem, but I am a gentle agitator. I roll the tank as I invert, actually never doing a full inversion. Previous stand development that I did using 120 film and R09 Rodinal clone came out perfectly. This experience leads me to believe that stand development of 4x5 with Rodinal is possible and is on my list of things to do, photographically speaking.

The MOD54 is $60 from B&H here in the US.

Regards,
Rob

[lab black]

In response to using clothes pins to hang your negatives, I have found that they leave too large a mark on the negative and are widely inconsistent in their spring strength. There have been numerous discussions on this forum regarding a large variety of clips that have been effectively used. I have had great success using Kodak dental film clips ( cat 149-2586 ) that are occasionally available on the used market.

[RodinalDuchamp]

Thanks rbultman, at $60 the mod54 does seem tempting. I guess reliability is more important than price but only if I can afford it.

[RodinalDuchamp]

In response to using clothes pins to hang your negatives, I have found that they leave too large a mark on the negative and are widely inconsistent in their spring strength. There have been numerous discussions on this forum regarding a large variety of clips that have been effectively used. I have had great success using Kodak dental film clips ( cat 149-2586 ) that are occasionally available on the used market.
That is a genuine concern for me, I would hate to have some weird mark or residue left behind on a nice neg. I'll look into those dental clips.

[jp]

You can leave the film in the combiplan or mod54 carrier as well for drying. I usually hang it with wooden clothespins because I want to rinse and put everything away.

[lab black]

PM sent re: clips

[Jac@stafford.net]

That is a genuine concern for me, I would hate to have some weird mark or residue left behind on a nice neg. I'll look into those dental clips.

The dental film clips might be best, but regarding clothespins remember that the whole 4x5" negative is not exposed; the edges do not print so they are okay for clothespins if used carefully.
.

[Jmarmck]

Yes, the nikor tanks are still going for around $250. I got lucky earlier this year and found one for around $90 but I had to rob a cap from another tank. Fortunately, they are the same size. Be sure you get the retaining band. When loading do NOT jam the film into the slots. If you do not force the sheets in all will be fine........be sure to have the emulsion side down (facing the center). They are slow to fill and drain (30 to 45 seconds) but can be worked into the process and won't matter with stand development.

[RodinalDuchamp]

Does anyone have any experience with the Yankee Cut Film tank?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/63620-REG/Yankee_YACF45_Cut_Film_Daylight_Developing.html

Since I am doing stand development being absolutely leak proof isn't a big deal I can deal with getting my hands wet a little, the most important aspects would be light tightness and ease of loading though the latter can be overcome with practice so not that important.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I stand develop in BTZS tubes, 4x5 and 8x10.

[rbultman]

I stand develop in BTZS tubes, 4x5 and 8x10.

How much developer (volume) is required for 8x10?

[RodinalDuchamp]

My question about the btzs tubes is that people claim the taco method causes uneven developing because of the bend it creates. Wouldn't that bend be similar in a tube? And if not for stand development couldn't some PVC pipes be rigged from home depot for much less?

[Andrew O'Neill]

How much developer (volume) is required for 8x10?

I use pyrocat-hd. 5ml of each stock solution in 1200ml of water. I pull the film out of the tube every 20 minutes and invert it before sliding it back in.

[RodinalDuchamp]

I am considering something like this (pvc/abs developing tubes)

good write up here:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/dschneller/info/filmTubes.html

They seem easy to make but I would use black ABS plastic or electrical conduit.

[analoguey]

That's an interesting technique - and good use of plumbing!
I use pvc pipes within a tray as I found it less prone to scratching. This would be an even better thing to try!

Thanks for sharing!

[rbultman]

That is a very interesting setup with the ball valves. You could use 3 right-hand tubes containing dev, stop, and fix, similar to what is done with tank development with roll film. The trick will be accounting for the time it takes to remove the dev tube and attaching the stop tube, although for stand development this change-over time is really not critical. For normal, non-stand, development it would be.

You could imagine a slightly different setup using two ball valves, one at each end of the development tube, that would make normal development using this system easier. One is the "source" ball valve and one is the "drain" ball valve. The tube on the source end holds the fresh chemical. The tube on the drain end holds the used chemical. Development would go as follows: Place the film in the development tube and close the ball valves. Fill one tube with developer and attach it to the source ball valve. Connect another empty tube to the drain end. Open the source end and start at timer. Agitate per normal procedure. After the last agitation, close the source ball valve, remove the tube on the source end, and replace it with a tube containing stop. When development time ends, open the drain ball valve to drain the developer into the drain tube. Close the drain ball valve and open the source ball valve to allow the stop chemical to end the development tube. Remove the drain tube, dispose of the spent chemical, and replace the drain tube. Repeat for fix. You might need to ensure that the tubes have the same volume in order to ensure that the liquid moves well from one tube to the next when the ball valve is opened.

In the BTZS videos, only the loading of the tubes and the attachment of the chemical-containing cap is done in the dark. Stopping and fixing are done in subdued light only. Fixing is done in film hangers and tanks since the anti-halation layer does not get removed during the develop and stop steps because the back of the film touches the wall of the tube. I suppose you could fix the film a second time if you used these tubes with ball valves.

How critical is it to do the stop and fix steps in the dark?

Regards,
Rob

[Regular Rod]

Hello. This is my first post so I will start with a little background. I did search for reference but did not find anything I thought useful to my particular set of circumstances.

I started shooting film about three years ago, I am a BFA major currently in college. My main rig until now has been a Bronica ETRS 645 MF. I have a pretty well equipped darkroom in my house, Omega D2 elnarger a variety of enlarging lenses/boards/trays etc. I would say that I am currently solidly intermediate to advanced intermediate in both making pictures and developing film and processing.

That being said I have taken the next step and purchased a Crown Graphic 4x5. I have been progressively regressing towards more and more manual control of everything I create and now seems like a good time to take this step as I am about 2 1/2 semesters from finishing my BFA, I will likely be able to get support and help from my mentors.

However I like to think that I am LARGELY self taught because I have been working on the same projects now for a year to a year and a half aside from school assignments.

OK - on to my question.

I have developed (no pun intended) a very deep love for stand developing in Rodinal 1:100 for about an hour. I have never had any issues with bromide drag because I agitate for about 30 seconds in the beginning and about 2 inversions at 30 minutes. I have had excellent results thus far with 645.

I would like to maintain a similar workflow with my 4x5 negatives but have run into so much opposing information online that I am a bit confused/overwhelmed and hope you fine sirs might be able to guide me.

A lot of the steel developing tanks I am finding are not light tight and even the plastic ones get bad reviews. I would like to be able to load the film in the dark and finish processing with the lights on. I need to be able to agitate with lights on. I have read about the taco method but this seems hit or miss with lots of people reporting underdeveloped areas.

I am currently looking at a nikon 4x5 tank which is selling for about $250 which I am uncomfortable buying because it seems a bit steep. I am also looking at JOBO 2521 tanks and 2509n reels these are a bit more feasible.

However before I decide to make the purchase which is not insignificant I want to hear what some seasoned developers have to say. Any advice/recommendations are appreciated.

PS - I am unwilling to forgo stand development.

Forgo nothing! http://freepdfhosting.com/f640343f29.pdf

This gives you everything you need. You may have to shop around and put a search on eBay to follow but, once you have one of these and carry out these simple modifications, you really will have no problems. You get the advantages of tray development and the advantages of daylight working with just one tank instead of multiple trays. Stand development is easy with the modifications and the increased volume of working solution as suggested in the pdf so you need sacrifice nothing from your proven working methods. You simply lay your sheets of film in the tray so no bending, rubber banding, clipping in, sliding, slotting or any other risky feeling and fumbling manipulations in the dark...
:D

RR

[HMG]

I am considering something like this (pvc/abs developing tubes)

good write up here:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/dschneller/info/filmTubes.html

They seem easy to make but I would use black ABS plastic or electrical conduit.

That write-up says "pvc pipe" but shows ABS pipe. One question I have is the amount of time between draining developer and adding stop bath. If development times are longish and you have a second pipe section with stop bath ready, might not be an issue. Or if you can make that changeover process consistent you can account for it in your development time. Another possibility is to forgo a threaded connection between the chemical pipe and valve - using just a "slip" fit. If there's only a bit of leakage, that would be ok.

Or you could get fancy and have 3 tubes connected by 2 valves with the film in the middle. But that's getting pretty involved for one sheet of film.

BTW, a power miter saw works well for cutting abs and pvc pipe if you go slow.

[Jac@stafford.net]

My experience with stand development is that micro-contrast in the mid-tones and especially shadows is diminished.

Does anyone else find the same? (please note that I am referring to conventional printing: not scanning and manipulation.) Thank you.

[RodinalDuchamp]

My own experience is limited to rodinal which is a pretty contrasty developer as is. In my experience with 645 I find that rodinal stand development produces a tamed grain and good contrast. As far as micro-contrast in the midtones it may be something I have not paid attention to because I have been rather pleased overall with the results and process. I have developed lots of 35mm and some 645 in D76 with standard developing process/agitation and found no benefit over stand.

[Matsushime]

Mod54+Paterson tank

I second this.

It seems to me that the Mod54 and a Paterson tank keep it simple, and relatively cheap considering other solutions. In my opinion it was a no-brainer compared to other methods.

I bought and used this as an absolute beginner to large format\4x5 and have had no issues with it at all. Keep you patience while loading it (which isn't difficult) and you'll be set.

[HMG]

Does anyone have any experience with the Yankee Cut Film tank?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/63620-REG/Yankee_YACF45_Cut_Film_Daylight_Developing.html

Since I am doing stand development being absolutely leak proof isn't a big deal I can deal with getting my hands wet a little, the most important aspects would be light tightness and ease of loading though the latter can be overcome with practice so not that important.

Since I have the same question (and RodinalDuchamp never got an answer), I'll revive this thread to see if anyone has experience with the Yankee (or similar FR) tank and stand development. It would seem to address the 2 issues I might have: 1) amount of chemistry required for 4-8 sheets of film and 2) difficulty of achieving good agitation with this tank.