8x20 Questions

[neil poulsen]

So yesterday, I purchased an 8x20 outfit . . . :confused: Oh my gosh.

I saw it listed on the web and went to the store to take a look without any particular intention of purchasing another camera outfit. But it included a fully equipped Toyo G 8x10 and a cleverly designed adapter to hold a Wisner 8x20 conversion kit on the Toyo, and considering the very reasonable price, I bought it. Four, beautifully made 8x20 walnut holders were included in the sale, loaded with film. The Toyo also came with extra rails and two mounting blocks to hold the 8x20 outfit, etc.

I've read the archives on this site and at Apug, and I have a few remaining questions about 8x20.

>> On average, what's the cost and availability of film? Purchasing 10 or so sheets at a time would be nice. But, perhaps I need to purchase in larger quantities to reduce the cost per sheet?

>> I can enlarge 8x10. I don't do much contact printing, so I'm wondering how much improvement I would see in an 8x20 contact print versus an enlarged silver print from a 4x10 section of an 8x10 negative. It's only a 2x enlargement, so I'm wondering if the difference would be that significant?

>> I have a tripod, a large Linhof with a 2" column and geared crank, that can hold this camera. Thinking that my 3039 Monfratto, hexagonal plate head rated to 26lbs may not be up to the task, what head should I consider? I was thinking of mounting both of the Toyo blocks onto a single piece of metal or wood and attaching this assembled double block to the tripod head. My tripod plate is about 4.5" in diameter.

>> The Toyo is a pretty solid camera that's capable of holding its own with the 8x20. But, would it make sense to purchase a Wisner 8x10 for the 8x20 conversion kit? Specs for the Wisner traditional L indicate that the weight of the whole outfit would drop by about 9lbs. So, it would be a lighter kit.

>> I tend to stick to similar dip and dunk development methods (out and back in each minute) with formats that I use. Are there holders for 8x20? I could make a tank, if need be. Or, am I stuck with tray development?

>> I've heard there's a problem keeping the film flat within the holder for 11x14, 14x17, etc. Is this the case with 8x20? One can get away without double-faced tape in 8x10; can one just load and expose with 8x20? It's longer of course, but no wider.

>> Is there a market for contact printed 8x20 photos? Of course, a lot depends on the particular image, but generally speaking, is there a market?

>> I would need a frame for contact printing the negative, which can be a little expensive. Is there a way to jury-rig something, in the meantime?

Thanks in advance. I never really expected to get into ULF, but here I stand with this recently acquired outfit.

[DrTang]

when I had a 8x20

I made a developing 'tank' out of pvc pipe section.. I believe I glued a tank lid from a 35mm tank onto an end piece - that seems about like something I'd do

mine...get this - came with like 25 boxes of tri-x

so I could mess around until I got the proper development thing down

I sold the whole outfit years and years ago..

I don't recall any mishaps, scratches or that beige patch where the film overlaps itself

maybe I got lucky

[Oren Grad]

On average, what's the cost and availability of film? Purchasing 10 or so sheets at a time would be nice. But, perhaps I need to purchase in larger quantities to reduce the cost per sheet?

Ilford FP4 Plus and HP5 Plus are available in quantities as small as one box as part of Harman's annual special order period (orders taken late spring, film delivered fall). From this or any other supplier, don't expect volume discounts - just be thankful the film is available at all.


I can enlarge 8x10. I don't do much contact printing, so I'm wondering how much improvement I would see in an 8x20 contact print versus an enlarged silver print from a 4x10 section of an 8x10 negative. It's only a 2x enlargement, so I'm wondering if the difference would be that significant?

They look different. The differences can be subtle; only you can decide whether they matter for your purposes.


The Toyo is a pretty solid camera that's capable of holding its own with the 8x20. But, would it make sense to purchase a Wisner 8x10 for the 8x20 conversion kit? Specs for the Wisner traditional L indicate that the weight of the whole outfit would drop by about 9lbs. So, it would be a lighter kit.

How important is (relative) compactness and (somewhat easier) portability to you? I wouldn't mess with a big monorail in the field myself, but YMMV.


I tend to stick to similar dip and dunk development methods (out and back in each minute) with formats that I use. Are there holders for 8x20? I could make a tank, if need be. Or, am I stuck with tray development?

I use Jobo 3062 and 3063 drums for ULF sheets. (Caveat: OK for standard developers, not for pyro.)


I've heard there's a problem keeping the film flat within the holder for 11x14, 14x17, etc. Is this the case with 8x20? One can get away without double-faced tape in 8x10; can one just load and expose with 8x20? It's longer of course, but no wider.

Depends on your holders, not just the format. But in general, if you don't have a problem with 8x10, I'd expect you'll be fine with 8x20. I don't use tape with any format up to my maximum of 11x14.


Is there a market for contact printed 8x20 photos? Of course, a lot depends on the particular image, but generally speaking, is there a market?

Is there a market for non-contact printed 8x20 photos? I think the extra sales you'd get just because it's a contact print will be negligible. Use the camera and format if you enjoy it and find that it stimulates good work on your part.


I would need a frame for contact printing the negative, which can be a little expensive. Is there a way to jury-rig something, in the meantime?

I don't use printing frames, because every one I've ever tried gives me bad Newton's rings in the environmental conditions of my darkroom. Instead, I use a plain glass sandwich, with heavy, 3mm thick glass for the top of the sandwich.

Good luck, and enjoy! :)

[Jim Noel]

"I use Jobo 3062 and 3063 drums for ULF sheets. (Caveat: OK for standard developers, not for pyro."

My experience is exactly the opposite. I get lines with D-76, HC 110, D-23, etc, but not with Pyrocat HD.

[John Jarosz]

I've not had any problem with film flatness in 8x20. 'Course, having said that I'll be afraid to expose some in the future.

I've found that (for me) it's much more difficult to get everything formatted EXACTLY as you would like so the contact print can be as close to 8x20 as possible. It's easier to work around a mistake in image setup when you enlarge a 4x10 (so it's usually slightly more than a 2x enlargement). And since I'm enlarging onto a vacuum easel I can get an 8x20 print fairly easily.

I tray develop negatives one at a time. I keep the film on the bottom of the tray and slosh the developer over the stationary film. This seems to minimize edge/center differences in development of the neg. YMMV.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Neil, nice going! For ULF I shoot three. 11x14, 14x17 and 8x20. I get the most compliments on my 8x20 work at every show I've been in. I contact print in carbon transfer and there is nothing like an 8x20 contact print. Scan it and go bigger, enlarge it? I don't know because all I do is contact print in carbon transfer.

Film can be hard to find. You have to stock the freezer. The Ilford run once a year is the way to go or be patient and find it on line. I shoot expired film and develop in a tray one at a time in Pyrocat HD with great results. Four holder is perfect because you will be very selective with your images.

I use double sided tape in my holders. Light tack/medium tack. I've had film buckle out in the field and it is not pretty when that happens.

I use a Gitzo M1570 head on carbon fiber legs and love it. No quick release please! Trouble with weight and torque.

I love the format. Have fun.

[Oren Grad]

"I use Jobo 3062 and 3063 drums for ULF sheets. (Caveat: OK for standard developers, not for pyro."

My experience is exactly the opposite. I get lines with D-76, HC 110, D-23, etc, but not with Pyrocat HD.

Ouch! Darkroom voodoo strikes again! If only we could figure out what factor(s) account for these different experiences...

[Michael Kadillak]

I can really relate to your feeling of having jumped into the water and all of a sudden you are expecting to execute with this new photographic tool.

Make absolutely no mistake about it. ULF is a labor of love and those of us that have been down the aisle with 8x20 have gained a level of experience that we have (unfortunately) paid for to get to the level of results that are what this process is all about. The most efficient manner of conveying these learned experience is personal conversation. At your beckoned call.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I can really relate to your feeling of having jumped into the water and all of a sudden you are expecting to execute with this new photographic tool.

Make absolutely no mistake about it. ULF is a labor of love and those of us that have been down the aisle with 8x20 have gained a level of experience that we have (unfortunately) paid for to get to the level of results that are what this process is all about. The most efficient manner of conveying these learned experience is personal conversation. At your beckoned call.

But it is so much fun!! Just takes one print!

[Michael Kadillak]

But it is so much fun!! Just takes one print!

This is true. But light leaks from the holders, shaky subject matter caused by wind during long exposures, vignetting at the most inopportune times as well as film developing shortcomings all conspire to point out your shortcomings to becoming a legitimate Master Photographer. ULF is graduate school along your LF photographer journey IMHO. The excessive cost of film dictates learning the mistakes of prior participants so you do not have to pay the same price of admission all by yourself.

[John Jarosz]

+1 all true

[Carl J]

Hi, can you post some photos of the new setup?

Also, costing out 8x20 film for the Ilford annual order may give a bit of sticker shock (hint -- seems like the price of 8x20, 14x17, 12x20 are pretty close, as I recall).

A while back I came across an interesting young documentary photographer, Eliot Dudik (might want to check out his book 'The Road Ends in Water', which is 4x5 color) who shoots 8x20 color on a vintage Korona using 2 sheets of Portra 8x10 in each holder:

http://eliotdudik.com/

http://www.thephoblographer.com/2012/12/19/prepping-an-8x20-camera-for-a-documentary-project/#.VG-qd2TF9MM

Granted, it's a certain 'look' but I think it's effective.

I asked him how he did it and wrote that he 'built a jig to slide two sheets of 8x10 into and attach together before they go into the 8x20 holder'.

Along with Ilford 8x20 and anything else you can find, perhaps using a method similar to what Dudik describes would allow you to also try [single-sided] x-ray film (haven't seen x-ray film in 8x20). Just a thought, anyway.

Seems like a very exciting format and will look forward to hearing more about your progress. :)

[Michael Kadillak]

Scanning the images and stitching them together is an easy task in this day and age. The late William Corey shot 8x20 and figured this out. My eye continues to go to the center seam and camp out. The marvel of 8x20 is the totality of the image unobstructed. The compromises made to work with this format in size, weight and logistics such as film holders IMHO dictate a commitment to the final image because it is results that drive the process. Otherwise it would be easier to cut the equivalent of 8x20 proportions out of an 8x10 negative and call it good. This reminds me of the mission statement of the German firearms company H&K. "In a World of Compromises - Some Don't"

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Michael, I agree. No compromise here. My first ULF camera was my 8x20. Someone on one of the forums told me I could not build a camera if I did not have a shop full of tools etc. I built the 8x20, got some holders a couple of great process lenses and have never looked back. I find film wherever I can and have a nice stash now. It takes dedication when one moves to ULF. My 8x20 carbon prints have made me very happy and I've done well selling them. They are unique as my clients have told me.

[Michael Kadillak]

Unquestionably Jim what you have accomplished without a shop and with a passion for image making is amazing. I tip my hat to you in respect.

The willingness to challenge the presented format is like the person that said that you could not build an 8x20. It caused you reach to a new level of performance and you in fact did it. ULF is inherently a step above the norm in all respects. Where there is a will there is always a way!

Speaking of which, I need to get the 8x20 out and make some images.....


Michael, I agree. No compromise here. My first ULF camera was my 8x20. Someone on one of the forums told me I could not build a camera if I did not have a shop full of tools etc. I built the 8x20, got some holders a couple of great process lenses and have never looked back. I find film wherever I can and have a nice stash now. It takes dedication when one moves to ULF. My 8x20 carbon prints have made me very happy and I've done well selling them. They are unique as my clients have told me.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Unquestionably Jim what you have accomplished without a shop and with a passion for image making is amazing. I tip my hat to you in respect.

The willingness to challenge the presented format is like the person that said that you could not build an 8x20. It caused you reach to a new level of performance and you in fact did it. ULF is inherently a step above the norm in all respects. Where there is a will there is always a way!

Speaking of which, I need to get the 8x20 out and make some images.....

Michael, thanks for the nice words. 8x20 just looks good! Get that puppy out and use it!! Your work is awesome!

[neil poulsen]

Ilford FP4 Plus and HP5 Plus are available in quantities as small as one box as part of Harman's annual special order period (orders taken late spring, film delivered fall). From this or any other supplier, don't expect volume discounts - just be thankful the film is available at all.

They look different. The differences can be subtle; only you can decide whether they matter for your purposes.

How important is (relative) compactness and (somewhat easier) portability to you? I wouldn't mess with a big monorail in the field myself, but YMMV.

I use Jobo 3062 and 3063 drums for ULF sheets. (Caveat: OK for standard developers, not for pyro.)

Depends on your holders, not just the format. But in general, if you don't have a problem with 8x10, I'd expect you'll be fine with 8x20. I don't use tape with any format up to my maximum of 11x14.

Is there a market for non-contact printed 8x20 photos? I think the extra sales you'd get just because it's a contact print will be negligible. Use the camera and format if you enjoy it and find that it stimulates good work on your part.

I don't use printing frames, because every one I've ever tried gives me bad Newton's rings in the environmental conditions of my darkroom. Instead, I use a plain glass sandwich, with heavy, 3mm thick glass for the top of the sandwich.

Good luck, and enjoy! :)

Oren, Thanks for your responses and insights.

One question that I have, what do you include in your "sandwich" when exposing the image? You mentioned 3mm. But that's close to an 1/8", which is pretty standard for glass. Is this 3cm, which would indeed be a heavy piece of glass?

[neil poulsen]

Hi, can you post some photos of the new setup?

Also, costing out 8x20 film for the Ilford annual order may give a bit of sticker shock (hint -- seems like the price of 8x20, 14x17, 12x20 are pretty close, as I recall).

A while back I came across an interesting young documentary photographer, Eliot Dudik (might want to check out his book 'The Road Ends in Water', which is 4x5 color) who shoots 8x20 color on a vintage Korona using 2 sheets of Portra 8x10 in each holder:

http://eliotdudik.com/

http://www.thephoblographer.com/2012/12/19/prepping-an-8x20-camera-for-a-documentary-project/#.VG-qd2TF9MM

Granted, it's a certain 'look' but I think it's effective.

I asked him how he did it and wrote that he 'built a jig to slide two sheets of 8x10 into and attach together before they go into the 8x20 holder'.

Along with Ilford 8x20 and anything else you can find, perhaps using a method similar to what Dudik describes would allow you to also try [single-sided] x-ray film (haven't seen x-ray film in 8x20). Just a thought, anyway.

Seems like a very exciting format and will look forward to hearing more about your progress. :)

Wow, color in this size is a very interesting thought, even if split down the middle. A sales person who helped me when I bought this outfit commented that one could put the split between the two halves of an image into the fold of a book.

I think that I will probably stick with B&W. But, it's thought provoking. We still have a dip and dunk lab in Portland that I believe can do 8x10 color.

Interesting links to the Phoblographer. I noticed that he was using a 12" Dagor. He must really be closing that lens down.

[neil poulsen]

Neil, nice going! For ULF I shoot three. 11x14, 14x17 and 8x20. I get the most compliments on my 8x20 work at every show I've been in. I contact print in carbon transfer and there is nothing like an 8x20 contact print. Scan it and go bigger, enlarge it? I don't know because all I do is contact print in carbon transfer.

Film can be hard to find. You have to stock the freezer. The Ilford run once a year is the way to go or be patient and find it on line. I shoot expired film and develop in a tray one at a time in Pyrocat HD with great results. Four holder is perfect because you will be very selective with your images.

I use double sided tape in my holders. Light tack/medium tack. I've had film buckle out in the field and it is not pretty when that happens.

I use a Gitzo M1570 head on carbon fiber legs and love it. No quick release please! Trouble with weight and torque.

I love the format. Have fun.

Film buckling out in the field sounds pretty scary. Jeepers. Did that happen with 8x20? Where do you get the DF tape? I was thinking about how tape could be used. Does the film stick to the tape as it's being inserted into the holder? Or catch on the edge of the tape?

Of course, I had a 1570 earlier this year that I picked up for $20 and sold it. But, I think that sounds like a good head. One thing about having this conversion kit mounted on the Toyo, it can be set up in stages, versus having to mount the camera on the tripod all at one time.

[neil poulsen]

I can really relate to your feeling of having jumped into the water and all of a sudden you are expecting to execute with this new photographic tool.

Make absolutely no mistake about it. ULF is a labor of love and those of us that have been down the aisle with 8x20 have gained a level of experience that we have (unfortunately) paid for to get to the level of results that are what this process is all about. The most efficient manner of conveying these learned experience is personal conversation. At your beckoned call.

Thanks so much. I have lenses that cover 8x20, so no additional expense there. I don't know that I've ever done much panoramic. But now that I have this outfit, I've been noticing many situations where one could compose interesting images on 8x20.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Neil, the double face tape can be purchased at any good art supply store. I put a piece near the flap and when I slide the film in I have no problem. Once loaded I just lightly press down the film and I'm good to go. No problem getting it out you just have to be careful. Well worth the effort. Seeing in the panoramic format took time for me but now I love it. My camera is not that heavy but having a big surface to mount to is a blessing.

[John Jarosz]

I'd like to follow-up the x-ray film mention with a question of my own.

Do any of you use x-ray film for 8x20? I say specifically 8x20 because there is (apparently) no x-ray film with a 20" dimension or a dimension in a multiple of 8". If you do use x-ray for 8x20 can you say what size you start with and how you cut it in the darkroom? Any safelights acceptable or must it be completely dark? Did you build some kind of fixture for cutting?

Thanks

John

[Oren Grad]

One question that I have, what do you include in your "sandwich" when exposing the image? You mentioned 3mm. But that's close to an 1/8", which is pretty standard for glass. Is this 3cm, which would indeed be a heavy piece of glass?

Definitely not 3 cm - I don't have space for a forklift in my darkroom. :)

Sure, 1/8" will do - as you say, it's essentially the same. Any glass on the bottom, the 1/8" glass on top. I have a large thin piece of glass that comes close to covering my enlarger baseboard, and thick glass in several different sizes to use as the top of the sandwich. For pressure to be as even as possible I select a top glass that's larger than the format I'm printing and the paper I'm printing on. For example, the other day I was contact printing some 6.5x8.5 negatives on 8x10 paper, using a thick top glass that was around 11x14 IIRC. I have the edges of the glass chamfered and rounded off for ease and safety in handling.

[ndg]

Though I don't shoot 8x20, my technique might be of some help. I use a 14x20 camera so I cut down 14" x 36" Xray film ( a box of 25 sheets is about $60). I invested in a Rotatrim for this and it is awesome. I cut a sheet in 2 stages due to the length of the board of the Rotatrim. It is about 12". I cut off an 11" piece to give me an 11" x 14" sheet, then a 5" piece to give me a 5" x 14" sheet ( two 5" x 7"s). I am then left with a 14" x 20" sheet. At that point you could cut that 14" x 20" piece down to 8" x 20". That leaves you a 6" x 20" piece that one can cut down to smaller pieces. At a price of about $2.50 a 14' x 36' sheet, it might be worth considering.


I'd like to follow-up the x-ray film mention with a question of my own.

Do any of you use x-ray film for 8x20? I say specifically 8x20 because there is (apparently) no x-ray film with a 20" dimension or a dimension in a multiple of 8". If you do use x-ray for 8x20 can you say what size you start with and how you cut it in the darkroom? Any safelights acceptable or must it be completely dark? Did you build some kind of fixture for cutting?

Thanks

John

[Michael Roberts]

Nana,
What about scratches? I've read the x-ray film emulsion is very soft and scratches easily. Have you had any problems with scratches as a result of making the multiple cuts you are doing?

Michael

[ndg]

Nana,
What about scratches? I've read the x-ray film emulsion is very soft and scratches easily. Have you had any problems with scratches as a result of making the multiple cuts you are doing?

Michael

Michael, what i have noticed is that Xray film is quite hardy when dry. The dry film does not scratch easily. It is a different story when the film is wet.

[Michael Roberts]

Ahhh....this is good news. Thanks!

[Dan Dozer]

Hi Neal,

I've never had any problems with my holders and keeping the film flat. I'm guessing that it might have to do with the type film some people have used and not being as stiff as other types.

Here is one thing you might want to consider if you are going to develop your film in trays. If you go on line to the garden type supply store, they sell seed trays that I found that are the perfect size for 8 x 20 film, and they are very cheap as opposed to buying 16 x 20 photo developing trays.

[angusparker]

Hi Neal,

I've never had any problems with my holders and keeping the film flat. I'm guessing that it might have to do with the type film some people have used and not being as stiff as other types.

Here is one thing you might want to consider if you are going to develop your film in trays. If you go on line to the garden type supply store, they sell seed trays that I found that are the perfect size for 8 x 20 film, and they are very cheap as opposed to buying 16 x 20 photo developing trays.

I've found the Ektascan film which is on a blue poly base is very robust and flat. Better than regular Xray for when it's wet. The sheets have quite the heft to them.

[neil poulsen]

Hi Neal,

I've never had any problems with my holders and keeping the film flat. I'm guessing that it might have to do with the type film some people have used and not being as stiff as other types.

Here is one thing you might want to consider if you are going to develop your film in trays. If you go on line to the garden type supply store, they sell seed trays that I found that are the perfect size for 8 x 20 film, and they are very cheap as opposed to buying 16 x 20 photo developing trays.

Thanks for the heads-up on this. Given the quantity of developer that would be needed, I was skeptical about developing 8x10 in trays (16x20) that were twice the size needed.

[Dan Dozer]

Here is the sort of tray I was referring to and I believe that this is the type that I have. These are polystyrene and should be rigid. They also make some really cheap, but I'm guessing that those are soft plastic and would be impossible to pick up to pour chemical solutions out of.

One note - the film just fits in these trays. If you are using a developer that needs a lot of agitation like I do (I use PMK Pyro), too vigorous agitation can cause a different level of development around the edges of the negative/tray so you need to be a little more gentle than normal.

http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/perma-nest-1020-tray/seed-trays

[John Jarosz]

I use those same trays. And you're right, 8x20's just fit. I develop negs one-at-a-time. To prevent overdevelopment at the edges I keep the negs against the bottom and gently slosh the developer above. Lifting the neg out of the developer during agitation will result in overdeveloped edges. YMMV. But the trays are cheap and very rugged. I've had mine for 4 years.

[karl french]

To follow up on this thread, I just used the above mentioned trays to print some 7x17 images on 9x19 paper. It worked very well. As I assemble an 8x20 outfit, I'm wondering about a similar tray that would work for printing 8x20 on 10x22 paper. I've seen some ULF folks using what look like clear plastic storage bins.

[John Jarosz]

If it were me, I'd cruise places like Bed, Bath & Beyond or the Container Store and look at a zillion different kind of molded storage boxes made from any of the flexible plastics. Then when you found a size you can live with I'd use tin snips to cut the walls to a height you like. As all those storage containers get larger they also get taller which is no good for our purposes. But they still will function quite well as a shallow tray once the walls are trimmed.

[Kirk Fry]

Make your own trays from plastic purchased at Tap Plastic. They will tell which plastic and glue to use and cut the plastic to your instructions. And no I have no connections with the outfit other than as a user....

[Willie]

Brush development of the film in trays can get rid of the problem of overdeveloped edges.
http://www.michaelandpaula.com is the website of Michael A. Smith and Paula Chamlee. Michael's main format is 8x20 and he is good at it. Their workshops are excellent and they teach development by inspection which can help with your darkroom setup and use.

[karl french]

I'm thinking of these trays for platinum/palladium printing. I'll process the film in Jobo drums.

[neil poulsen]

Make your own trays from plastic purchased at Tap Plastic. They will tell which plastic and glue to use and cut the plastic to your instructions. And no I have no connections with the outfit other than as a user....

I did exactly this with two trays for 8x20. I think that I used 1/4" plastic, and it ended up costing me about $80 or so. Good trays though.