Understanding camera prices?

[Calamity Jane]

I have been watching LF cameras on e-bay since I got into LF last spring and for the life of me I can't figure out what drives camera prices!

I started out by building a 4x5 monorail which cost me under $200

When I watch the sales on e-bay over half a year, I see cameras go in three distinct price ranges:

The least expensive are the older wooden cameras that end up selling between $150 and $250, sometimes even including a basic lens.

The next group seem to have some "collector value" or some other mysterious appeal and sell in the $500 to $800 range, even thought the appear to be in similar condition to the cheaper cameras, appear to be equally functional, and don't seem to have anything to differentiate them from the bottom of the line $150 cameras.

The last group is the "in demand" cameras that sell for $1500 to $2000. Again, they don't seem to differ in function or condition from the $150 cameras. Names like Deardorff automatically command high prices.

Can some of you more worldy-wise enlighten me on the difference between a $150 wooden camera and a $1500 wooden camera?

Since I am looking for a profitable hobby for retirement, maybe I should consider giving Wisner a run for their money? ;-)

[Mark Sawyer]

Your observations on prices are pretty accurate...

Deardorffs go for a bunch because they're very nice functional cameras and they have a deservedly very good reputation. That, and the fact that people are willing to pay a lot for them, tends to drive the price up...

The older wooden cameras can be very functional, but you're taking a chance on condition. Even if they look good, the bellows can be dried out and brittle, the tracks may not be smooth, the older wood may not be as strong, etc. Also, many of those older cameras only have rear swing & tilt and front rise/fall for movements. Newer ones generally have full front and rear movements, and more status in the eyes of some.

Newer field cameras may look much the same, but a good one has more movements and many subtle improvements, and of course, they're newer.

If you're just getting into lf, an older camera in good shape can be great. If you are a professional and really depending on your images for your livelihood, you probably don't want to risk your work on an older camera which might develop a leaky bellows or wobbly front standard in the middle of an important shoot or trip.

(That said, I still often shoot with a wobbly old Kodak 2D, which still hasn't failed me. It has almost a century of good karma...)

[Bill_1856]

There was a significant valley in LF prices a couple of months ago, with Graphics which had generally sold for $250+ dropping to the $100 range, then they suddenly semed to take a giant leap into $400+ areas. Similar thing with Deardorfs and Technikas. I presume that it had something to do with the election, but couldn't tell you exactly what it was. Anyhow, for right now, prices are definitaly high for LF gear. They still seem depressed on MF stuff, presumably because of the switch to digital by many commercial photographers. Darkroom stuff is definitely in the toilet!

[Gem Singer]

The difference in the price between a $1,500 wooden folding flatbed field camera, such as a new, entry level Wisner, Ebony, or ZoneVI, etc., and a $150 DIY wooden monorail camera is $1,350. If you ever handled one of those $1,500 cameras, you would realize the value instantly. How's that for a worldly-wise observation?

"Considering giving Wisner a run for his money". Ron Wisner was formerly a piano repair guy who had a vast amount of knowledge about view cameras and lenses. He has been making his wooden cameras for twenty years, now. Why don't you give him a call and ask him if he's making any money at HIS hobby? My suggestion for a profitable hobby for your retirement? You would not like my recommendation.

[Steve Hamley]

Calamity,

I looked at it a different way: prices for types of cameras based on portability. Folding wooden field camera prices (especially reasonably light field cameras) trump monorails which trump old wooden studio cameras for the most part. Deardorffs more expensive? For the folding wooden field camera. You can get the 75 lb studio jobs almost for shipping costs.

Within these categories, prices rank by usability (movements), condition, and appearance. There's no doubt that a Deardorff wooden field camera sells for more than a battleship grey B&J or Agfa simply because it is a beautiful camera.

Look at it still another way: in general, you can have any two of the following three: 1) Light and portable; 2) cheap; 3) full movements and wide lens range.

Compete with Wisner? Go for it, the more the merrier, but why stop there? Compete with Ebony.

Steve

[Alan Davenport]

Prices for used photographic equipment vary all over the map, as you've seen. Ebay and similar online buying sites are both a boon and bane for buyers; boon because people in small markets have instant access to items they'd not find locally in a lifetime, bane because all those potential buyers have driven prices up.

Go ahead and give Wisner a run for his money. If all you want is for your hobby to pay for itself, you might just be able to cover costs. OTOH, if you expect a profit (as in "making a living") be prepared for some eye-opening times. All those used cameras on the auction sites, not to mention Wisner et al, are directly competing for the buyers' dollars versus your unknown (at least at first) product. If you keep things in perspective, as a "hobby" you should derive enjoyment that will offset potential financial costs.

I do wish you luck. The more choices we have, the better for all of us.

[Jim Galli]

Calamity, you got your '55 Thunderbirds, and you got your '55 studebaker four doors, and you got your '55 Cadillac Eldorado Convertibles, and you got your '55 Nash's. Let's not forget your '55 Toyota's and Renault Dauphine's. See where I'm going.

[Nick_3536]

I'll try explain my thinking from the buyers view point.

A week or two ago I was looking at an Improved Seneca 8x10. I set a value of under $150 for the camera. Why? No rear extension rail. Bellows weren't perfect. I might have cobbled together a rail but new bellows would have set me back something like $300. OTOH $450 would likely get me a near perfect older non fashionable camera. Or the double extension Tachihara 8x10 is about $1300 from Mpex.

With all the modern stuff selling for reasonable prices the older stuff needs to be either real cheap or have great name brand value. With new stuff I'd get a good dealer to stand behind the camera. A warranty. Maybe more features.

I'm not a big fan of the 8x10 format so I'll just keep looking for a less then perfect cheap relatively little known camera. If I really wanted an 8x10 then I'd consider one of the lower cost new cameras.

[Jim Rhoades]

Yeah, the prices jump all over. Last year I got a longrail Calumet for $61. One wing of a four wing knob was broken off. I can live with that.

Now giving Ron Wisner a run should not be as hard as Eugene thinks. The reason Wisner may not be making lots of money would be because he treats his business as a hobby. Mr. Phillips can't make cameras fast enough. He just stopped making ULF. Keith Canham seems busy too. It depends on how you treat the customer.

For a retirement gig try getting some third world company to put out a nice ULF for about $2,000. I'm waiting to see if this Shen-Hao 7x17 comes true. How about a Tachihara beyond 11x14? 7x17 or 8x20 anyone? Corner the import market.

[tim o'brien]

CJ,

How to make a little money in the LF camera field...

Start with a LOT of money.

tim in san jose

Did the grinding polishes I send you work?

[Frank Petronio]

I looked into to it. Even though guys like Canham are backlogged, they don't make a lot of money. If you do it well I'm sure you can make a decent living, but it is more of a retirement hobby than a career.

I don't know Bob Salomon's business, but I see he sells more than just cameras....

[Herb Cunningham]

I don't know if you saw my post about two weeks ago asking the folks what lightweight 4x5 they recommended, but the thread is there, and I got a ton of answers. While the jury is out on me, it is meeting and I have made one purchase, and am going to probably do another.

First, what are you going to shoot? If it is in the field, light weight is nice, and movements don't need to be many. If it is in the studio, you are in heaven, because you can pick from a huge number of very good monorails that will do anything, are in really good shape, all below $600, some below 250, but are heavy.

There is an inevitable tradeoff between features, weight, and quality/cost.

Get the simplest camera you can, used, but which will have enough movements to cover your needs, and try it out.

You will change your mind many times.

[Dan Fromm]

CJ, if you're located anywhere near Reno or are willing to relocate there, consider apprenticing to Fred Lustig and becoming the next Graflex repair master. A couple of years ago he was looking for a successor, since then he's aged a couple of years and had a stroke. He won't, unfortunately, live forever.

[Calamity Jane]

No offense intended to the makers of fine LF cameras but wooden cameras are not "rocket science" - they're just good craftsmanship. I love building things, all kinds of things from steam engines to cannons, to cameras, and will go one building things as long as I am able - it's a genetic defect and I can't stop! :-)

Camera repair doesn't appeal to me - I have repaired 35mm mechanisms and repaired Rollicord leaf shutters - it's too much like brain surgery! Whereas I find building to be very relaxing and rewarding.

Tim: I haven't used the polishing powders yet. When I get to the glass for my next camera, I'll give them a try - thanks for sending them!

Still working on the layout for my folding field camera - trying to keep as many of the movements as possible, keep it simple, and keep it light. You could say I am stealing the best ideas from everybody else ;-)

Thanks for the comments guys. It gives me some insight into the psychology of camera pricing.

[Jim Rice]

Hi Jane, I started with a $50 Pacemaker Speed while in high school. When i was i college a friend gave me his 4x5 Master View (not to be confused with the desirable 8x10, we're talking Calumet CC-400 here). I saved and scrimped and ten years or so ago I bought a new 4x5 Wisner Tech, the largest single photographic purchase of my life. I have not found anything that the Wiz can not do. I, in turn, gave the Kodak to an aspiring LFer. All in all, I'd have to say $1750 well spent.

[Struan Gray]

My idea: make a lightweight windproof field camera for long lenses. There's lots of options for someone lusting after a stripped down wide angle machine, but almost nothing for people who like the look of 400-600 mm lenses. My ideal would be a seperate front and rear end with movements and a little fine focus, which could be stuck on the front and rear of an appropriate lightweight PVC or fibreglass tube. If the tube became the case for portage so much the better.