16x20 brazilian build [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

RSalles

7-Nov-2014, 13:10

Guilherme,

What kind of film are you planning to use with the camera? Maybe X-ray?
All what you have for this camera until now are the bellows, or have you built other parts as well?
(Isso é uma coisa de louco, viu, queria ver essa câmera depois de pronta!)
For brazillian-portuguese illiterates on the corner I had just left him know how great seems the hole project,

:D

Sds,

Renato

Jim Fitzgerald

7-Nov-2014, 21:59

JB has great info on his site and is a great guy and Susan is wonderful as well.

I know the question will get asked so here goes... where did you get the bellows material? What is it. It looks nice.

coisasdavida

8-Nov-2014, 02:12

Andrew, you are correct.

Renato, yes, I have the rear frame, will be using the front frame of a Toyo camera. The bed has been cut, but I won't assemble it until I know how thick the bellows will be.

Jim, this is the cheapest stuff to make backpacks and similar bags. Seems like nylon with one side of rubber. Maybe for a smaller bellows it wouldn't be a good idea, too thick and too rigid.

Jim Fitzgerald

8-Nov-2014, 08:33

Do you know the name of the material? I may restore a couple of cameras and make some new bellows. I know it has come up in the past, bellows materials that is but has anyone recently found the source for proper bellows material?

coisasdavida

10-Nov-2014, 04:10

Jim, they call it rubberized nylon here at the store. The store carries rolls of plastic, pieces of EVA, nylon ropes, plastic hardware to make sports bags, that kind of stuff.
The rubber side has a texture and the nylon side has a pattern, they have different patterns with small variation of price.

Here is another project done with the same material from the same store, a colodion bike by Roger Sassaki:
http://www.imagineiro.com.br/fotografia-em-colodio-e-uma-bicicleta-colodio-bike/

Ricardo de Oliveira

10-Nov-2014, 05:21

A while ago I posted some images of my gator foam film holder trial, it went well and now I'm in the middle of the camera build.
I'm following JB Harlin's bellows instructions and here is an image of where I am right now:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3946/15709950546_9130b439bc_c.jpg

Wow Guilherme! Now this is a project. Please keep posting your progress.
Let me add/edit this:
I had just shut off a wood shop and I still have a lot of tools and a CNC router that would be perfect to precision mill wood for toys like this. I just don't have the space anymore. I'm in Rio. if someone happen to knows a photographer/woodbutcher that wants to share the shop,let me know.

SergeiR

10-Nov-2014, 07:26

nice

coisasdavida

10-Nov-2014, 11:06

Ricardo, too bad Rio and São Paulo are not closer.
Serge, thanks!

Andrew O'Neill

10-Nov-2014, 12:03

My local fabric store stocks similar stuff. Nylon with one side rubberized. Bought a few metres of it as I'm planning on replacing the bellows for my 14x17.

Jim Fitzgerald

10-Nov-2014, 12:34

My local fabric store stocks similar stuff. Nylon with one side rubberized. Bought a few metres of it as I'm planning on replacing the bellows for my 14x17.

Andrew, thanks I'll check it out.

Dan Dozer

10-Nov-2014, 16:11

Have you already glued the inner fabric together at the joint or is this just taped in place to take the photo? If you have already glued the inner fabric together, I suspect that you will have a very difficult time gluing the outside fabric in place. This looks exactly like my 8 x 20 bellows in mid-construction.

coisasdavida

11-Nov-2014, 04:07

I'm using 3M spray no. 77, having no problems and this is my second bellows with this material.
The trial I did a few years back I did use the black plastic from inside photo paper envelopes and blackout curtain, even then no.77 gave a very strong bond if used per instructions to obtain a permanent bond instead of easy to peel apart bond.

I wrote the above before, now re-reading your post, I see I didn't read it correctly, that was the outer fabric on the form inside out, I glued the ribs and then the inner fabric, then turned the bellows inside out again and folded it. Here it is so far:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7472/15578742109_81bf67729b_c.jpg

coisasdavida

12-Nov-2014, 02:59

I made a quick video during the folding stage:

https://vimeo.com/111575588

And more pictures can be found on my blog http://refotografia.wordpress.com/

Andrew O'Neill

12-Nov-2014, 11:07

I use the same glue... I take it you glued in a liner as well?

coisasdavida

12-Nov-2014, 11:53

I use the same glue... I take it you glued in a liner as well?

Yes, I got some cotton textile for men's shirts. Very thin, sort of matte, looks ok.

I used a 250gsm paper for the ribs, I feel it was too thin. I never made a bellows so big, it handles very maleable.

ederphoto

12-Nov-2014, 13:06

Bom trabalho camarada !!! Quero ver a camera pronta !

coisasdavida

27-Nov-2014, 03:33

Here is the base coming together

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8641/15266301623_69bffe93c8_c.jpg

Ari

27-Nov-2014, 08:28

Jim Fitzgerald

27-Nov-2014, 10:10

Awesome job!

coisasdavida

4-Dec-2014, 10:27

Wow, nice work, Guilherme!
I hope the rest of the build goes smoothly, and you are rewarded with a sweet 16x20 camera.
That would be my preferred size as well, if I were ever to make the jump to ULF.
Do you have a lens, or lenses, already?

Ari, thanks!
I have a few lenses that I could use depending on the format I'll be shooting: a 19 3/4" f/10 Ektanon, a 360mm f/5.6 Symmar, a 183mm f/18 Protar. I intend to have a 8x20" back as well as a 12x16"/14x17" back, besides the 16x20" one. I have some 8x20" FP4, lith film in both 16x20" and 12x16" and x-ray in 12x16". If I ever get done with this load of film I can go to x-ray in 14x17". Until I get to actual shooting I won't be able to tell if I have what I need.
And then there is the money issue. So far I have not spent much in the camera. The wood was part recycled from a Maple crib I built for my first son in 2002 and part bought recently as cut to size plywood that was cheap. Aluminum flat and L bars were cheap too. I had to get a router and that was kind of unexpected. I spent some money in drill bits and glue. Hardware except for 2 screws I was able to find in my shop seaching the jars and drawers. Paper and outside of bellows were recycled, liner I had to buy. I still have to buy black paint for the backs and gatorfoam for the holders, I'll focus on this and make it work with whatever I have for now.

coisasdavida

4-Dec-2014, 10:28

Awesome job!

Thanks, Jim!

coisasdavida

5-Dec-2014, 05:19

Here is how it looks this morning. I finished routing the aluminum with my drill press and it worked fine.
Some black paint inside the rear frame and I guess I can glue the bellows.
Still haven't figured out a simple latch idea.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7492/15949735411_78437978b1_c.jpg

Lachlan 717

5-Dec-2014, 12:38

Can you give more info on how you used the drill press for milling/routing? Thanks!

Jim Fitzgerald

5-Dec-2014, 13:13

Can you give more info on how you used the drill press for milling/routing? Thanks!

I bought a mini mill for my last camera build. It makes all the difference in the world and was a great investment.

You can rout with it as well.

coisasdavida

5-Dec-2014, 13:35

Can you give more info on how you used the drill press for milling/routing? Thanks!

Lachlan,

I used a milling bit on the drill press. Made a small jig to guide the bar in a straight line under the bit. Lowered the bit and locked in place. Put my body against the piece pushing it forward. Used lots of milling oil solution and patience, it takes time.

I made a small post on my blog with a video. Maybe it can help: http://refotografia.wordpress.com/2014/11/24/ulf-%e2%80%a2-fresa/

This guy here was my inspiration, he used his drill press the same way: https://www.flickr.com/groups/nzlf/discuss/72157625571891566/

You are welcome!

coisasdavida

5-Dec-2014, 13:44

Here is my second version of drill press to milling machine jig:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7548/15954395975_c0dfaf068c_c.jpg

Lachlan 717

5-Dec-2014, 16:48

Lachlan,

I used a milling bit on the drill press. Made a small jig to guide the bar in a straight line under the bit. Lowered the bit and locked in place. Put my body against the piece pushing it forward. Used lots of milling oil solution and patience, it takes time.

I made a small post on my blog with a video. Maybe it can help: http://refotografia.wordpress.com/2014/11/24/ulf-%e2%80%a2-fresa/

This guy here was my inspiration, he used his drill press the same way: https://www.flickr.com/groups/nzlf/discuss/72157625571891566/

You are welcome!

Thanks for the information.

Did you have any problems with the chatter causing the chuck to drop out, or did the jig help to hold it in place?

pound

5-Dec-2014, 19:12

Awesome job! hope to see the completed camera soon.

coisasdavida

8-Dec-2014, 03:36

Did you have any problems with the chatter causing the chuck to drop out, or did the jig help to hold it in place?

One time, when I was making a lensboard for a Speed Graphic.
I was cutting some maple (3/8" thick), making it thinner on the edges to fit the camera.
My solution was to make it in steps or passes. Taking less material in each pass. By doing that, I didn't have the problem with wood anymore.

This last week, with aluminum, not a single problem.
I have to say that I make the chuck much tighter than I would to drill a hole.

el french

18-Dec-2014, 00:18

You can also use downcut router bits in wood and aluminum. They won't try to pull the bit out of the chuck. See here for a good explanation: http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2012/04/06/cnc-router-cutters-types-and-how-to-use-them/

coisasdavida

18-Dec-2014, 08:42

blindpig

18-Dec-2014, 09:43

Fantastic job! Professional looking camera build.Can't wait to see pictures...
Don

coisasdavida

19-Dec-2014, 07:02

I have been working on a few things before glueing the bellows to the rear frame. I wanted to get all the dust making things out of the way before that.
I routed the three backs (8x20", 12x16" and 16x20") and I had the rear frame present in the shop to try and fit to it both horizontal and vertical position. They look like this:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7485/16030744466_37e8ca02fc_c.jpg

They are not finished yet, because I can never know what is going to happen when I make the film holders, I may have to change a few things here.
For holders I'll be making some like this one: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?112157-Thinking-banquet-aloud&p=1122897&viewfull=1#post1122897

I was able to modify a tripod to add a platform for this camera, now it sits here waiting.
Next on the list is to glue the bellows, add some sort of latch to keep camera closed, install a couple bubble levels and a carrying handle.

coisasdavida

22-Dec-2014, 11:29

127015

coisasdavida

30-Dec-2014, 16:56

I have been trying to convince myself that I haven't completely ruined the bellows by using a paper too thin.
During my first dry test it was very hard to manage the bellows. It has around 55 inches when extended, a very strong taper as you can see and is not very hard to bend, open and close.
It kept trying to fall all over. I used some paper clips and some scrap wire to hold it towards the front of camera.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7463/16150578542_98f009a8e2_c.jpg

That seemed to work so far for the 500mm focused at infinity. But my guess is that I will have trouble trying longer draws, I haven't so far.
I'm thinking of some folding wire supports on the base and inside the rear frame and adding lots of strips/loops to the bellows to hold it towards the front as much as I can.
Is that the right track towards good bellows management?

winterclock

31-Dec-2014, 20:23

Can you glue another layer inside the bellows?

ic-racer

1-Jan-2015, 08:15

Wow, fantastic project.

Other solutions to the bellows droop. An intermediate frame:
127437

Lift the bellows up from below:
127439

Suspend the bellows:
127438
http://darrensgreatbigcamera.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/004.jpg

coisasdavida

2-Jan-2015, 09:41

Winterclock, I suppose I could. All glued now to the camera, but if that's what has to be done in the end, easier than making a new one.

Ic-racer, thanks, very clear!

coisasdavida

7-Apr-2018, 04:33

Here a few pictures of recent film holder making.
This is my light trap made of felt:

176762

coisasdavida

7-Apr-2018, 04:35

I've been making a bunch of holders for all 3 different formats, a lot of gator foam being cut:

176763

coisasdavida

7-Apr-2018, 04:36

Here are 3 30x40cm holders waiting for testing:

176764

coisasdavida

7-Apr-2018, 04:37

Ha! The smallest ones!

176765

Tin Can

7-Apr-2018, 06:34

Love it!

Jim Fitzgerald

7-Apr-2018, 08:52

Curious to know how these work. Please let us know.

coisasdavida

7-Apr-2018, 10:39

I made one a few years back when this idea of camera started. It worked ok. Now I'm finishing the whole project (3 backs and 3 holders for each back - 8x20", 12x16" and 16x20")

They are not meant to last very long, but so is my film stash, so I guess I'm fine. It took me only a few hours to make all these holders, so the time and money investment was low, I guess I could repeat it if ever needed.

coisasdavida

2-May-2018, 19:10

Out and about.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/947/41815709172_1e01400580_b.jpg

Tin Can

2-May-2018, 20:02

Very cool!

coisasdavida

3-May-2018, 17:12

Thanks, Randy!
There a few more pictures in my blog here: https://refotografia.wordpress.com/2018/05/03/ulf-%e2%80%a2-primeiras-saidas/
Text in portuguese, I apologize.

coisasdavida

13-May-2018, 04:06

First images out are the scans of the 12x16in negatives.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/959/41358070084_33089c8081_b.jpg

coisasdavida

13-May-2018, 04:09

One more:

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/832/42032467432_599ac781e7_b.jpg

coisasdavida

13-May-2018, 04:10

I have been using an unknown lith film in 12x16in and developing in Soemarkos developer with 2:1:7 dilution.

coisasdavida

13-May-2018, 04:12

Instead of the Symmar that I used for the above images, this one is taken with a 183mm Protar in a volute shutter.
I have to say I love the falloff the protar gives, I couldn't do better in software, hahhahahah

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/959/41358063374_f5faa98681_b.jpg

Peter De Smidt

13-May-2018, 06:45

Great stuff!

Pali K

13-May-2018, 09:17

This is fantastic! Love the camera and the photos.

Pali

coisasdavida

13-May-2018, 16:26

Great stuff!

Thanks, Peter!

coisasdavida

13-May-2018, 16:28

This is fantastic! Love the camera and the photos.

Pali

Thanks!

Pali,
I've been reading of lot of your posts on the rangefinder forum about the 11000 scanmate.
I have one sitting here in my studio, I'm will be trying to fix it for a friend in the next few weeks.
Thanks also for all that info you put there!

Pali K

14-May-2018, 15:36

Thanks!

Pali,
I've been reading of lot of your posts on the rangefinder forum about the 11000 scanmate.
I have one sitting here in my studio, I'm will be trying to fix it for a friend in the next few weeks.
Thanks also for all that info you put there!

Let me know if you need any help with it Guilherme. Unfortunately, I have taken these scanners apart and put them back together more times than I can count now and have come to appreciate the intricacies :)

Pali

coisasdavida

14-May-2018, 17:12

I have taken these scanners apart and put them back together more times than I can count

My thoughts were: this guy is a brave one!

Michael Roberts

14-Aug-2018, 20:30

Guilherme,
I've been reading about your 16x20 camera build and film holders.

Could you please answer some questions for me about your holders as you describe in this post?
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...=1#post1122897

Gatorfoam strips to make the final frame above the darkslide

Crescent board darkslide and strips to make a frame around it--Q: are these strips made of the same Gatorfoam as the components above and below the darkslide or are they made of the same Crescent board as the darkslide or of some other material?

Gatorfoam strips to separate film stage from darkslide--Q: in your finished holders, it appears you cut notches near the end to load film instead of using a taped flap--is this correct?

some strips of a 700gsm black card to make a frame for the film--Q: I presume this 700gsm card is slightly thicker than the film and is cut slightly wider and longer than the film so that the film stays relatively flat, with the Gatorfoam level above acting as a film guide would in a manufactured holder--is this correct?

main piece of Gatorfoam the divides the film holder in half

Also, can you tell me anything more about how you made your baffles, as shown in this post?
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...=1#post1438839

Any other tips you can pass on that you learned from making these holders that you would do differently next time?

Many thanks for sharing!
Best,
Michael

coisasdavida

15-Aug-2018, 17:24

Hello Michael,
Hope you can use this information.

Q1: yes. I only purchased one kind of gatorfoam, I got the only they had that was all black. Same for the crescent sheet.

Q2: yes. I notched the top level of gatorfoam to allow for film to enter. The crescent sheet darkslide was wider than this notch to make for a lightseal. And very important, I took a lot of care of the distance for the long side of the film, it was a snug fit (since I didn't have a flap).

Q3: not so much, the card was the same thickness as 8x20" FP4 Plus, maybe a little thicker than the lith film I used for 12x16". The film stays put. I have had 8x10" sheets fallin from the holder inside my camera, but had no problem with these holders. The rebate covers around 1cm of film, so it is a generous rebate.

Q4: Baffles: I used an iron (for clothing) to fold in half these pieces of thick felt. Even after ironing, they insist on staying unfolded. I used white glue to glue the bottom half to the holder.

Back in 2014 I made a proof of concept for this holder, before getting the camera going: https://refotografia.wordpress.com/2014/03/22/ulf-%e2%80%a2-chassi-8x20/
There is a nice picture here with "all 5 levels" of this holder: gator, card(film), gator, crescent board(darkslide), gator

The crescent board level is a tight fit, which is good, the darkslide won't come out on its own. For other cameras I have done other proof of concept holders, even of cardboard just to make sure I had my measurements correct. When I used cheaper stuff for this darkslide it would release tiny rolls of paper, tiny pieces, make a mess and eventually stay stuck inside. My tip is to use whatever you think will be the final material in the proof of concept, open and close it many times to see if the friction came damage the material.

I'll try to remember more.

gambaphoto

17-Aug-2018, 18:12

fantastic work on the camera

coisasdavida

18-Aug-2018, 20:24

fantastic work on the camera

thank you!

Tin Can

19-Aug-2018, 04:14

Great work and don't worry about the Portuguese language blog Google translate it well enough.

I read all your posts.

coisasdavida

20-Aug-2018, 15:27

Great work and don't worry about the Portuguese language blog Google translate it well enough.
I read all your posts.

Cool! Thanks!
I've been using Google Translate in ways I never imagined. When I found a free Espon 4900 a while back I eventually turned to a russian forum to get some help running it with my own carbon inkset. I'd type my message on Google, copy the russian version, post it and use Google Chrome to read the replies. Amazing!