Vacuum those film holders then Vac-seal them

[riooso]

I have never see a post on this proceedure but, as we all know we fight dirt on our film at all stages of the process and I have discovered a very good way that really helps. Of course I vacuum and blow out my holders, then put in the film, and then I used to just put them in my bag. I have found that if I vacuum seal them individually in a vacuum bag (like a seal-a-meal) that there is a tremendous gain in dust reduction. I have been using this procedure for about four months and it has made an unbelievable difference in the quality of the images. I am guessing that dust would just get into the cracks of the slides.....and huge number of other places that dirt and dust could lodge. I shoot 4x5 and the last batch that I scanned I literally had only about 10 minor spots on the majority of my transparencies. Give it a try!


Take Care,
Richard

[vinny]

If you remove all of the air, the dark slide would come in contact with your film. I'm guessing you aren't removing all of the air?
Many of us just put each holder in a anti-static ziploc type bag or regular ziploc. Much cheaper, reusable, and resealable in the field.

[Drew Wiley]

I load mine in a true clean room. The holders themselves are blown out immediately adjacent to an industrial air cleaner. Cameras and holders are totally cleaned before and after each trip. Conditions vary dramatically. Sometimes in the mountains dust is almost nonexistent. But down on clay playas in the desert, esp in winter, in can help to actually ground the back of a metal camera using an nail, some speaker wire, and an alligator clip, to prevent static charge building up on the film. And I treat all the holders anyway with anti-static spray. Lots of things you can do to minimize dust.

[Andrew O'Neill]

My method is pretty simple. To control dust on my film I first wipe down my film loading area with a damp cloth. I then wipe the entire film holder (including the slide) with tac-cloth, bought from a local paint store. Works really well. All holders (loaded and unloaded) are kept inside a ziplock bag (for 8x10 as well).

[Alan Gales]

I vacuum mine with a small shop vac. I put the vacuum outside my bedroom door and close the door as much as possible with just the hose coming into the room to keep the vacuum from stirring up dust in the bedroom. I then immediately load my film holders in a Harrison tent. After loaded I place the holders in separate anti static ziplock bags.

I live in St. Louis, Mo. U.S.A. with high humidity summers.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I use disposable anti-static cling dusters, the ones with no polish or scent. They work very well. Then the 4x5s go into an ammo box. 8x10 into a zipped bag.

[Alan Gales]

I load mine in a true clean room. The holders themselves are blown out immediately adjacent to an industrial air cleaner. Cameras and holders are totally cleaned before and after each trip. Conditions vary dramatically. Sometimes in the mountains dust is almost nonexistent. But down on clay playas in the desert, esp in winter, in can help to actually ground the back of a metal camera using an nail, some speaker wire, and an alligator clip, to prevent static charge building up on the film. And I treat all the holders anyway with anti-static spray. Lots of things you can do to minimize dust.

Wow, Drew! That would be nice. Do you have a clean room at work that you have access to?

[Tin Can]

Obviously location makes a huge difference.

Might help as Drew has done to add your locations. Indoors, studio, desert, humid south, etc. including weather, as cold dry air is dustland.

i primarily shoot inside my Chicago studio and dust has not been a huge problem with normal humidity.

I keep my DDS in clean closed industrial cases, each sized appropriately. Lenses go in tool boxes. They get dusty too.

[hoffner]

I have never see a post on this proceedure but, as we all know we fight dirt on our film at all stages of the process and I have discovered a very good way that really helps. Of course I vacuum and blow out my holders, then put in the film, and then I used to just put them in my bag. I have found that if I vacuum seal them individually in a vacuum bag (like a seal-a-meal) that there is a tremendous gain in dust reduction.


Take Care,
Richard

Unfortunately, from the technical point of view, the vacuum packing doesn't help the cleanliness in anything. As soon as you open the bag, it sucks all the surrounding air (and its dust too) right where you didn't want to have it.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I keep my DDS in clean closed industrial cases, each sized appropriately. Lenses go in tool boxes. They get dusty too.

FWIW, there are common military ammo cans that fit 4x5 holders perfectly and they have air sealing.

I have to check again but I think they hold at least ten DSL holders.

[richardman]

I have no problem with dust so far in the Silicon Valley, although I would imagine that things are quite different in the desert. Also, scanning, especially with ICE dust removal (non-B&W only) may act differently than optical enlarging as well.

[Drew Wiley]

My clean room is in my own little lab and is dedicated to film and color printing, separate from the sink and processing room and general enlarging room. Actually I have four adjacent darkrooms, each equipped differently. The film room has triple-filtered air lines (sub-micron), an industrial air cleaner, enameled anti-static
walls, I wear a 100% dacron cleanroom smock in there (lint free), blah blah. Sometimes I use it for general printing, just cause it's superbly insulated and nice n' cozy in winter. But if I do that, then I sponge everything down before doing any color or film registration work etc. Any cleanroom or lab supply has all kinds of stuff applicable to darkroom work. Camera stores are pitiful in that respect, as are the habits of traditional photographers. And it ain't all that expensive to do things right if you just research it a bit.

[Alan Gales]

My clean room is in my own little lab and is dedicated to film and color printing, separate from the sink and processing room and general enlarging room. Actually I have four adjacent darkrooms, each equipped differently. The film room has triple-filtered air lines (sub-micron), an industrial air cleaner, enameled anti-static
walls, I wear a 100% dacron cleanroom smock in there (lint free), blah blah. Sometimes I use it for general printing, just cause it's superbly insulated and nice n' cozy in winter. But if I do that, then I sponge everything down before doing any color or film registration work etc. Any cleanroom or lab supply has all kinds of stuff applicable to darkroom work. Camera stores are pitiful in that respect, as are the habits of traditional photographers. And it ain't all that expensive to do things right if you just research it a bit.

It sounds really nice, Drew.

We did HVAC work on a place that had a commercial clean room. The floor was elevated and had holes in the floor tiles. Air was constantly sucked down through the floor along with any dust particles and then through a filter before it returned to the clean room. It was a neat set up and a large format photographer's dream.

[BetterSense]

For loading cameras and film it may be more economical to engineer a clean mini environment than a whole room.

http://m.sentryair.com/specs/Clean-Room-Portable-Mini-218-PCR.htm

of course it doesn't matter because dust is just going to get sucked onto the film as soon as you pull the darkslide, which is why I have all but given up on 4x5. I don't scan and I don't have the skill or inclination to remove dust spots from skies. If they would ever bring back quick loads I would be so happy. Until then I find that using static-guard on the film holders, storing in pink ziploks, blowing out the camera and letting settle before loading the film, and praying make a difference but still not enough for me to be confident there won't be ruinous spots on the film.

[Tin Can]

4x5 is dustier, not sure why but I agree.

I also love 'fixing' invisible on a print 'dust' on a scanned anything. :(

On a scan I don't know where to stop 'spotting'!

Not scanning much. :)

[jp]

My scanner is the dirtiest dustiest part of the whole process. I think the epsons' plastic is a static dust attracter.

Hepa air cleaner in darkroom.
Pink antistatic bags for the film holders when they are not in the camera.
No dust problems.

[Jmarmck]

I agree. The scanner is the dirtiest part. It is a magnet for dust and dog hair. All my retouching is due to dirt on the scanner, for the most part. It is on the plastic and glass. No matter how much I clean it. Now it is inside underneath the glass. :mad:
The masking material from better scanner is terrible for static. I am looking for a better material.
Other than that, I have very little problems with dust. I keep the cameras/lenses/holders covered or protected from my very dirty house/dogs. I simply blow the holders clean before loading. So far, so good.

[richardman]

I don't know why you folks have so much problems with dust and scanning.:confused: My bane is 3 dogs who are constantly shedding. Ugh.

[cyrus]

In my experience, vacuuming only adds to static charge and attracts dust, as do plastic bags. I use an antistatic dust gun to blow out the holders and try to increase the humidity in the air before loading film holders. Thus far it has worked well.

[Alan Gales]

In my experience, vacuuming only adds to static charge and attracts dust, as do plastic bags. I use an antistatic dust gun to blow out the holders and try to increase the humidity in the air before loading film holders. Thus far it has worked well.

I've heard of people loading their holders in the bathroom after running hot water in the shower.

[Tin Can]

I've heard of people loading their holders in the bathroom after running hot water in the shower.

That's my 'clean' room. I have folding table surface for loading film.

However I never need a special suit. I was born with one.

[riooso]

First of all the vacuum that a seal-a-meal gets to is not a true vacuum and I have found no scratches that have been made by the slides. The big thing is to keep the dirt off the holder to start with. Technically speaking when you cut the bag unless you are in a really bad environment. I figure that the amount of dust that you are letting in will not equal all the dust that it would normally encounter in a couple of days to a week. I spot to 200%, or more, and depending on the image so every bit helps. Plastic bags would be good but I don't like the static charge that normal plastic bags seem to generate.

Later,
R

[Vaughn]

I try not to have sky in my images...that works pretty good...just contact printing helps, too. Most of AA's prints I have seen have usually had black spots in the skies. I try not to stress about it too much. Nice living in a cool damp climate.

[Alan Gales]

I try not to have sky in my images...that works pretty good...

;)

[Alan Gales]

That's my 'clean' room. I have folding table surface for loading film.

However I never need a special suit. I was born with one.

Naked film holder loading. Hmmmmm. Learn something new every day!

[Henrim]

On top of blowing the holders and wiping the surfaces I use a portable air filter that I originally got for my tiny paint booth (run it couple of hours before, not during painting). I also use this to clean up the air in my equally small darkroom.

This is the one I got: http://www.microclene.com.au/mc760.html

[hoffner]

First of all the vacuum that a seal-a-meal gets to is not a true vacuum and I have found no scratches that have been made by the slides. The big thing is to keep the dirt off the holder to start with. Technically speaking when you cut the bag unless you are in a really bad environment. I figure that the amount of dust that you are letting in will not equal all the dust that it would normally encounter in a couple of days to a week. I spot to 200%, or more, and depending on the image so every bit helps. Plastic bags would be good but I don't like the static charge that normal plastic bags seem to generate.

Later,
R

A simple lock&lock box is airtight and watertight. Without the hassle of vacuum sealing. It's sold in all possible shapes and sizes.

[cyrus]

I've heard of people loading their holders in the bathroom after running hot water in the shower.

Indeed, this is a good way to get rid of dust and reduce static charge. But
I think the real source of dust on negatives is not due to loading, but is attributable to the dust inside the bellows. When the plastic dark slide is pulled, that alone generates enough static charge to pull dust onto the film from inside the camera. Vacuuming the camera interior is therefore required too but still, environmental dust will get in there especiall around the cut corners of the ground glass, when the bellows is extended. Wooden holders generate their own dust from darkslides.

[Vaughn]

I suppose the best practice I do that prevents (that is an overly optimistic word, "reduces" is accurate) dust, is using my 4" anti-static brush on the outside of the holder before inserting it in the camera back.

"Dust specks? What dust specks?"
(8x10 carbon print) :)

[Kirk Gittings]

I live in a very dusty environment. I blow them off with compressed air then wrap groups of 6 holders in plastic wrap (six holders is what my folding field holder can hold). I use the big commercial rolls of saran type wrap you can get at Costco. It simply works.

[Vaughn]

...When the plastic dark slide is pulled, that alone generates enough static charge to pull dust onto the film from inside the camera...

True. I remember some of the other workshop participants talking about this on a LF workshop in 1985. They were Silicon Valley computer people and had the equipment to measure the strength of the static charge generated by pulling the 4x5 darkslide out. It is definitely speed related...the faster the pull, the greater the charge. Pulling slowly became a habit.

Also less of a charge using wood holders, if I remember correctly. I wonder if metal darkslides are more or less likely to build a static charge...several of my 8x10 and 11x14 holders have metal darkslides (sturdy, but heavy!)

[Drew Wiley]

Try making huge Cibachrome prints with open skies (a medium very very difficult to retouch) based upon registered multiple 8x10 masks from the original, all of which must be absolutely spotless. Plus the contact frame glass for every single step, then finally the neg carriers. You either learn to do it right, or go broke with film expense, or more likely go insane. Don't see how spotting at a computer workstation is any more fun - you go blind and your butt melts into a permanent
numb blob. Spotting is just about the least fun I can think of in photography. ... But look into that cleanroom suit thing - it really works, at least during more
seasons of the year than birthday suits! That little portable cleanbooth thing is interesting too. I have a friend who built one into his Sprinter van for film work.

[Drew Wiley]

Vaughn - the problem with metal holders is condensation in snowy conditions and/or higher risk of film buckling due to temp differential. I learned that the hard
way. Static charge on plastic holders is easy to control with a simple anti-static spray, again available from any cleanroom or lab supply related to the tech industry. And the right kind lasts for years.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I suppose the best practice I do that prevents (that is an overly optimistic word, "reduces" is accurate) dust, is using my 4" anti-static brush on the outside of the holder before inserting it in the camera back.

Thanks!

That is the first idea I've read of that I have not tried yet.
Can you advise a particular anti-static brush?

[riooso]

That sounds good. I just need something that doesn't take up to much room in my backpack.

Take care,
R

[Drew Wiley]

You can also get miniature canned air for trips, no bigger than a light meter.

[Jac@stafford.net]

You can also get miniature canned air for trips, no bigger than a light meter.

If it were only air, that might be good. If it is not air, then the image of a person in the great outdoors using it is disconcerting.

[Vaughn]

Thanks!

That is the first idea I've read of that I have not tried yet.
Can you advise a particular anti-static brush?

http://www.adorama.com/CPSW4.html

This is what I use. They have a 2.5 inch version that would be nice for 4x5 and 5x7 (the 4" might be over-kill for the smaller formats). Mine came in a thin hard plastic case -- stores easily.


Metal darkslides -- one advantage is that they are almost unbreakable in normal use. If I am transporting a bunch of holders in a soft-sided bag, I try to keep holders with metal slide on the outside of the bunch to protect from something poking in. I also made my modified darkslide (for two 4x10 negs on an 8x10 sheet of film) from a metal darkslide -- after breaking a regular one.

[Drew Wiley]

Those Kinetronics brushes use a low-radioactive strip to help control static. Once that wears off, you might as well be using an ordinary soft non-shedding paintbrush, or a camel-hair lensbrush.

[Alan Curtis]

You can also get the Kinetronic brush from Fred Newman at the View Camera store. I did about a month ago.

[Vaughn]

Those Kinetronics brushes use a low-radioactive strip to help control static. Once that wears off, you might as well be using an ordinary soft non-shedding paintbrush, or a camel-hair lensbrush.

No, Drew, you are thinking of a different brand and type, the old Staticmasters. The Kinetronics do not have the Polonium strip. It uses synthetic hair and natural hair to 'short out' the static charge.

http://www.kinetronics.com/store/wisk1.html

[Andrew O'Neill]

I think the epsons' plastic is a static dust attracter

So true!

[Alan Gales]

Indeed, this is a good way to get rid of dust and reduce static charge. But
I think the real source of dust on negatives is not due to loading, but is attributable to the dust inside the bellows. When the plastic dark slide is pulled, that alone generates enough static charge to pull dust onto the film from inside the camera. Vacuuming the camera interior is therefore required too but still, environmental dust will get in there especiall around the cut corners of the ground glass, when the bellows is extended. Wooden holders generate their own dust from darkslides.

Interesting! I never gave much thought to dust inside a bellows and static charge created by pulling a dark slide. Thanks for the tip!

[Drew Wiley]

OK, thanks, Vaughn.... sure that isn't Sasquatch hair? ...... And Alan, that is exactly why I blow out the bellows after every outing.

[Vaughn]

OK, thanks, Vaughn.... sure that isn't Sasquatch hair?...

I know I have big feet, but that is no excuse to steal the hair off the top of me head!

Going around the lab and cleaning enlargers, I'd take off the lens and run my fingers up and down the bellows and watch the dust float down! Then I'd get the vacuum!
My 8x10 is over-due.

[Kirk Gittings]

Those Kinetronics brushes use a low-radioactive strip to help control static. Once that wears off, you might as well be using an ordinary soft non-shedding paintbrush, or a camel-hair lensbrush.

Any idea how long it takes to wear out?

[Drew Wiley]

Hard to say, cause the brushes were pretty much expired once they sold in the first place, so weren't effective long at all. And guess I was wrong about the brand anyway. I do have a couple of real Kinetronics in my 8x10 bag, but almost forgot that fact cause I never use them. If one wants the ultimate cleanroom experience, there is a Bayer plant a block away. Prior to a bulk production run they steam-clean the stainless steel floors and walls, everyone is suited up (with no breaks allowed for any reason the entire duration of the run, which might be twelve hours or more), and the inspector comes in, puts on a brand new white glove, and runs his fingers on the inside rim of the dust collection hood. If there is any visible dirt or stain on the glove at all, you're fired!

[Vaughn]

Any idea how long it takes to wear out?

The most commonly used isotope of Polonium has a half-life of about 135 days. So they do not last very long. They all came with a "dead by" date.

The Polonium was coated with gold to prevent any from flaking off.

Polonium has been used to poison people -- seems to have been a favorite of the KGB.

[Drew Wiley]

You might borrow a ballpoint pen from Putin, just in case some art critic gives you a bad review.

[ic-racer]

Any idea how long it takes to wear out?

Kinematics brushes are conductive (electrons free to move, as in a metal), so a charge does not build up on the bristles or brush handle. As far as I know this quality does not 'wear out.'

[Jerry Bodine]

...Prior to a bulk production run they steam-clean the stainless steel floors and walls, everyone is suited up (with no breaks allowed for any reason the entire duration of the run, which might be twelve hours or more)...

Do the suits have built-in diapers? I can't imagine not being able to go for 12 hrs or more without being allowed to take a potty break!

[hoffner]

Do the suits have built-in diapers? I can't imagine not being able to go for 12 hrs or more without being allowed to take a potty break!

Com'on, don't be so faint hearted.

[Drew Wiley]

I don't ask. But no potty breaks. Once into the suit and they can't leave until the production run is over. At least as a consumer that makes you feel good about the quality control of the product. But just from a financial point of view, when you end up with a five gallon bucket of paint that's worth about five million bucks, you can't afford to make mistakes and throw it out, and start over! Back when my wife was in Biotech she was into prototyping quality control, so wasn't under the same captivity in terms of scheduling. Her end product was typically several little vials of about 10ml apiece, but at an average value of $40,000 per vial, if some coworker left the refrigerator door open that nite, you can imagine the finance-topic fireworks the next day! But back to the disgusting comment. ...Guess you saw that the rocket containing supplies for the Space Station blew up on launch yesterday. Guess they'll have to wait a couple more months for toilet paper!

[Steve Goldstein]

Staticmaster brushes and refills are still available, but have gotten absurdly expensive. I bought a 3" refill maybe 6 years ago for something like $35, now they're $100 at Adorama (I just checked). I still keep and use my old one, even though it's long dead - it's still a pretty decent brush even if all the polonium has decayed to lead.

[Patrick13]

Slim: You know you don't have to dust with me, Steve. You don't have to brush anything, and you don't have to wipe anything. Not a thing. Oh, maybe just whistle. You know how to whistle, don't you, Steve? You just put your lips together and... blow.

Film noir dust prevention.

[Daniel Stone]

I bought one of these( http://www.amazon.com/MILTY-ZEROSTAT-ANTI-STATIC-GUN-BLUE/dp/B0033SHDSS) a few years ago at a small, now-defunct thrift store. It worked for my needs when scanning film on a local photo center's Imacon scanners. One of the benefits is that it doesn't stir up the surrounding air, where as canned/compressed air can kick up dust like a mother...

Unfortunately(for me), I seem to have misplaced it during a move last year, I just wish a replacement was only another $5 like what I paid for the used one at the thrift store :rolleyes:

[Drew Wiley]

Static guns like that can come in handy if the air is cold and dry. Not so much if you sponge down your work surface just before use, so there will be a bit of residual humidity in the air. I have a nice one mounted on a dedicated airline, but rarely use it. Ordinarily, just clean air itself is adequate, which I always blow
toward an industrial air cleaner which also outputs static-discharged air (a device that would be very expensive to make nowadays because of all the copper plates
in it - someone gave it to me!). There are analogous affordable devices for limited-area use. Aaaack! That is what is was doing last nite. I tend to clean my negs
and carrier glass and load em in the various enlargers a few days in advance, so my printing session itself isn't spoiled with monotonous dust chores.

[Daniel Stone]

Drew,

I've picked up a couple of the older Sharper Image air purifiers over the past few years. Usually under $10 at the thrift stores that I frequent. I've placed on in each major room, and since doing so, have noticed MUCH less ambient dust apparent in the rooms where they're placed.

Once I have a long-term space for a darkroom of my own, I'm planning to leave one in there non-stop, simply to control dust(I'm not at bunny suit level mind you ;), but I still hate dust!).

Any thoughts vs the larger, industrial/permanent-install units?

[jp]

Daniel; an overhead air cleaner like used in a workshop is an excellent air cleaner for permanent use (those metal boxes you see hanging from the ceiling)

I run a small fan based hepa filter I leave running in the darkroom which is doing well for the smallish room size.

The sharper image purifiers worked well for me, and I still use one when I need to remove an odor. They have fallen out of favor for general air cleaning due to making ozone, which could be bad in areas with poor air exchange, like a closed darkroom.

[Drew Wiley]

I doubt those little toy air refresher devices put enough ozone into anything to make much difference; but they do work for small areas, and you don't have to turn on the sparking ozone-ish switch if you don't need it. Overhead air cleaners simply recirculate the air through stacked filters of increasing degree to capture floating dust. The typical woodshop type won't be extremely fine, or they'd clog up fast. But with some brands you can optionally order up HEPA filters. Never place them on the outside of the filter sandwich. You want them to last, and want coarser filter to do their work first. I sell so much damn true HEPA equipment that it almost drives me nuts (gotta look at several new incoming pallets of it in a few minutes). So you could just use a true HEPA vac filter your air, while having it on hand for darkroom cleanup too, and if it has variable-power, even for things like vac easels. But I have to emphasize "TRUE" (Certified) HEPA, which is not a marketing gimmick, and is not something you're likely to find at either a home center or inexpensively.

[Jac@stafford.net]

My wife has COPD and we have in our little home three quite stand-alone double filtered filtration units each having a final HEPA filter. It works, I also have one in my darkroom. Highly recommended.