Arca-Swiss F-line with RRS Lever Release Clamp

[Greg Miller]

I'm the proud new owner of an Arca-Swiss F-line field with the new bellows & 140 rear standard. It arrived today and I managed to assemble it with no instructions and a bit of brain power.

The problem is mounting it to my Really Right Stuff lever release QR clamp. When I place the camera mounting plate in the RRS clamp and fully close the lever the mounting plate still moves freely so the camera is far from secure. I placed a call to RRS - they indicate that the Arca-Swiss LF mounting plates are narrower than the A-S standard for mounting plates so the only option is to go back to the screw clamp. I really like the lever release clamp (its fast and hard to screw up) so aside from my wasted investment I really don't want to go back to a screw clamp from a functionality standpoint.

Any ideas? Thanks.

[Rory Roopnarine]

Aha! A few weeks ago, I was in exactly the same position as you are in now. At first, I didn't realize that my new F-metric Arca was slowly sliding out of my RRS QR lever clamp and I just narrowly averted disaster. Don't worry, though, you won't have to replace the lever clamp. However, you will have to order the B29 RRS camera plate and attach it (via the dedicated 3/8-16 screw) to your existing Arca LF mounting plate. This solution has worked perfectly for me and I can now continue using the lever clamp confident now that the camera won't be crashing into the earth anytime soon! Regards.

[Nicholas Fiduccia]

Hi Greg and Rory,

Would any of you be so kind to post the weight of your new setup? And how much additional bellows extension can you achive with the new bellows. Thanks!

[Greg Miller]

Rory - thanks , that sounds like a good solution.

Nicholas - My F Field weighs 5.5 pounds. That is unfortuanley done with a bathroom scale but does match the rough number provided by the A-S folks. This updated model has only been out a couple of months and I have not found any official literature. The weight is the full system except for no (110) lens board or lens. I have the 30 cm folding rail.

I measure the full extension of the bellows at about 17". This is a rough measurement because I had to remove the rear standard from the 30cm rail to extend it fully. I tried to measure from lens board to film plane but again this was a rough measurement. If I remember correctly A-S quoted 420 mm. which would be 16.5".

[Greg Miller]

I should add that the same bellows would allow for a a lens as wide as 58mm with a flat board - bellows would be fully compressed at that point which would make movements difficult but still probably easier than with a conventional bellows. My widest lens is a 90mm which the camera handled with easy / full movements.

[Nicholas Fiduccia]

Thanks Greg. It does appear that in order to get full use of the bellows (and allow use of say a 300mm lens), you would either have to get the "telescopic" rail or get a rail extension.

[Frank Petronio]

I am assuming - but never completely confident - that the Arca-Swiss version of the lever clamp, which they call the "Flip-Lock" - will work with all Arca cameras...

[Glenn Kroeger]

Greg:

Apparently Arca-Swiss have announced a new 6" rail extension that would be perfect for utilizing the full length of the new bellows.

[Frank Petronio]

No offense to RRS, who are good folks, but should they have made an "Arca-Swiss" compatible clamp that worked with ALL Arca-Swiss products, especially their cameras? Because otherwise, they aren't making Arca-Swiss compatible products, only RRS compatible products...

[Greg Miller]

Glenn - Thanks, yes the new rail is the perfect length. I'll have to order it. I was hoping there would be enough wiggle room to get my Nikkor 300M to focus with the folding rail but it is not working. The new rail will be another almost $300 investment (yes I know - one of the downsides to the A-S line). I'm thinking that once I have that then I'll be all set. That and a protective case for carrying inside my backpack, and the compendium hood,...

[Nicholas Fiduccia]

Hi Greg,

I have heard that you can get a bit more extension by resversing the function carriers. I am not sure this will give you enough room to focus your 300mm nikon at infinity, however.

-Nick

[Jeffrey Sipress]

I'm having a hard time believing that Arca Swiss would put a plate on a new camera of their own that is narrower that the standard plates that we all use and that they created to be the standard! I have A-S type plates on 7 or 8 cameras and lenses and the same with numerous tripods. Don't we all? Kirk, RSS, Acratech, and others run businesses and keep us all happy by conforming to the established standard. This report is unbelieveable.

[Glenn Kroeger]

The problem is that the original design and implementation of the AS style plate system assumed a clamp that, driven by a screw, could handle some variation in widths of the plates. The key was the thickness and angle of the sides of the plate were standardized.

With RRS developing a lever driven clamp, the tolerance is now smaller.

I don't know for a fact that AS plates and the rail clamp of AS monorail cameras ARE exactly the same width.

AS now has a new quick release lever clamp, but as with most AS equipment, getting any information about it is next to impossible. Why the hell this company (who's products I own and love) can't hire a high school kid to build even a rudimentary web site is absolutely beyond belief. At least with RRS you have a manufacturer concerned with marketing a product to US consumers, and a product that supports a wide range of camera manufacturers.

If AS bases aren't consistent in width, then I would be more willing to standardize on RRS plates for now.

If any of this bothers anybody, just get a standard screw driven clamp available from all of the manufacturers.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Congratulations Greg for your new F-line-field with the 140 mm rear standard. I assume that you have the same leather bellows as the misura's. 5.5 lbs makes 2.5 kg. To be compared to the F-classic in 171 mm : 3.4 kg. The classic field 110/171 is probably lighter. So the relative weight reduction is 26% w/respect to the 171 "square" product line.

My understanding about the Flip-Lock quick release clamp is that there is a setting screw that you can adjust to best fit the third-party plate you are using.

I myself use the classical 'slow' clamp which is immune against variations of actual plate width, within a large tolerance. But I'm also using an original Arca Swiss plate ; the well-known belt+suspenders approach ;-);-)

[Glenn Kroeger]

Before I lose my "funk" over Arca-Swiss, I will post another suggestion, one that I made to AS back in the summer of 2000.

With the new AS 4x5 field, they should ship a folding rail that folds UP like the Misura rail. Given the height of the rear standard, the rear half of the rail could be nearly 19cm in length and could rest in the folded position on the rear standard protecting the ground glass. This folded configuration would allow the rail clamp to be left on the rail for quicker work in the field (a la Misura). The total unfolded length would be nearly 39cm allowing use of most of the new bellows and, most importantly for most shooters, would allow 300mm non-telephotos to be used without either rail or bellows changes in the field.

Of course, they could also add a clip to the 6x9 binocular viewer so that the ground glass frame couldn't fall out when removed from the rear standard.

I sometimes think there is a genetic link between the folks that design Arca products and the ones that design menus for Canon's digital cameras. Very bright folks that don't use their own cameras.

And since there is no evidence AS read their emails, you can't even make such suggestions in any formal way. Maybe they will read this thread. If they do, it would also be nice to have mounting plates to put digital SLRs onto AS rear standards. Sinar and Cambo understand this need.

[Glenn Kroeger]

Emanuel:

As usual, thanks for the info. It appears that the only way to know what Arca-Swiss is producing is to live in Besancon. Although I would be happy with that solution, it's a bit impractical for all of us to move there.

Can you PLEASE try to convey to the Vogts that the rest of us live in virtual ignorance of what is going on. If I lived in Phoenix, I could get more information from Rod Klukas at Photomark. But I can't (and it would'nt be fair to him) to call him daily to see what is new. I am headed to Phoenix to find out more later this month.

A simple web site with crude pictures would be a godsend. Even an email newsletter would be great. Hell, I would love spam from Arca-Swiss.

Simply put, I have money to spend that I am reluctant to invest in AS equipment. I am sure that AS very poor dissemination of information in the states is losing them other sales as well. Even with current exchange rates, we, in debtor nations, would buy more if we knew what was going on.

[Frank Petronio]

Maybe the folks here could post a few pix of their new 140mm babies, as I am curious too.

Martin Vogt once wrote me that they weren't willing to do a website unless it was to their very high standards, although I fail to understand how one would measure what a high standard website really is until they get into the game with at least a mediocre one. Then again, they were more than happy to attempt to piggyback off their vendor's websites - and ones like this one - in order to pinch a few pennies. Considering the exchange rate - I have a daughter going to school in Europe ($10 coffees) - they should be able to get quite a deal.

"perfection is the enemy of good."

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Congratulations Greg for your new F-line-field with the 140 mm rear standard. I assume that you have the same leather bellows as the misura's. 5.5 lbs makes 2.5 kg. To be compared to the F-classic in 171 mm : 3.4 kg. The classic field 110/171 is probably lighter. So the relative weight reduction is 26% w/respect to the 171 "square" product line.

Emanuel,

I just posted the weight of my F-Line Field (110/171) in the ACTUAL Camera Weights thread. Here's the details:

4x5 ARCA-SWISS F-Line Field = Folding Optical Bench 30cm, Format Frame F-Line 6x9 front - 110mm, Format Frame F-Line 4x5 rear - 171mm, Bellows 6x9-4x5 conical 24cm leather, Extension Bracket 8.5cm (old style - side clamping) - Advertised weight = 3200g (7 lb.) Actual weight = 2840g (6 lb. 4 oz)

So, the new model with the 140mm rear frame is about ¾ lb. lighter - plus you get a longer bellows, and I believe, a longer rail. Could someone in the know, please post the exact configuration of the new camera?

Thanks,
Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Martin Vogt once wrote me that they weren't willing to do a website unless it was to their very high standards

Frank,

I was told the exact same thing by Diane Henry when I was working on an article on ARCA-SWISS Cameras Past and Present earlier this year. When doing my research for that article, Martin Vogt was generous beyond belief. He sent me scans of several old ARCA-SWISS catalogs and product brocures, and even some original engineering drawings from the 1940s. He supplied everything I asked, and much more. The article ended up being 6 pages long, but with the material supplied by Martin, I could have easily written 10 times as much. The archives at ARCA-SWISS must be a real treasure trove of information. Martin Vogt and the folks at ARCA-SWISS obviously are quite proud of the history of their company and have kept detailed records going all the way back to the founding of the company nearly 60 years ago. They have tons of information to construct an extremely informative web site - and since a lot of it was scanned to send to me, it's already in digitized form. They have also been able to provide hires digital images of their current products whenever I've asked. With all this info in digital form, they already have more than enough content for a great web site. They just need to get someone to whip it together in a functional web site. It would benefit both the company and their customers.

Kerry

[Greg Miller]

I'll try to get a web page up with picutres in the next day or 2.

[Glenn Kroeger]

Kerry:

As with your experience, the Vogts, both Martin and Phillipe have been incredibly helpful and hospitable to me over the last decade, including driving me to and from the train station to their offices in Besancon and once before in Horgen. I wish them great success, in part because they are good people, and in part because I love their equipment... but it is SO frustrating to live with such a dearth of information.

So, I guess the real question from this thread is whether the dimensions of the rail clamp have changed with the latest cameras.

[Nicholas Fiduccia]

Glen,

As much as I like your idea of a longer rail that folds up shipped with the new 4x5 field, I cannot see how this could work. The rail on the Misura folds up and apprently doesn't get in the way when using short focal length lenses. But, if they made the rail any longer, that would increase the likelihood of the rail sticking in your neck as you were focusing using shorter focal length lenses.
However, if they made a trifold rail where the last piece (nearest the rear) folded down instead of up, then that would solve the problem. Of course, the tri-fold rail wouldn't be nearly as rigid as the bifold ones...

[Glenn Kroeger]

Nick:

Yes, and I worried about that on the Misura, but apparently it's not a problem. My solution would be 1-2 cm longer, so it might catch the Adam's Apple! But it isn't clear to me why the rail can't be free to swing up and down. Afterall, it locks in when you tighten the knob so it could simple be free to swing in a 180 degree arc.

Trifold would be nice. I hope to see how the new shorter extension works.

What bothers me is that my $1000 Toyo 45AX can handle lenses from 75mm to 300mm without any accessories. That seems like a reasonable and fairly standard range of lenses for field use, so it seems like Arca-Swiss could, for 3x the cost, develop a solution that does the same.

BTW, I have the opposite problem with my AS 69FC. The rail can handle a 240mm lens, but the bellows can't. If Arca-Swiss makes a rear standard adapter plate to put the 110mm 6x9 backs (groundglass and rollfilm adapter) on the 141mm frames, then the new system would handle all of my needs. They may have made or announced such an adapter, but how would I know?

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Glenn. To the best of my knowledge, nothing has been changed on the rail clamp with the new 140 mm product line. I do not know the details about manufacturing tolerances of non A/S compatible plates & clamps.

The rail clamp fits the usual bracket, be it short 8.5 cm with a folding rail or long with a telescopic rail. The bracket did not change, the base of the bracket fits as usual on the quick-release 'vise-style' A/S clamp, either the traditional or the new Flip-Lock.

The only thing that has changed is that 171mm frames have been shrunk to 140 mm, without changing the well-established International 9x12-4"x5" springback. A real challenge. So new bellows are introduced, the misura's (leather) will fit the new 'field' configuration ; a new longer synthetic bellows has been introduced for the 110->140 configurations as well as new 140->140 "square" bellows.

You simply slide new 140 mm frames in existing dovetails whatever function supports you have ; function supports now come in 4 1/2 flavours instead of 3 1/2 : the classic, the metric, the monolith and the simplified misura without tilts. the 1/2 additional style is the 'basic ' still used on the Discovery where the self-locking 'classic' clamp is simplified (you need to tighten a screw to clamp the dovetail). I'm not sure, however, that A/S wants to sell misura function supports independantly.

New 140 mm frames exist in 3 versions, the classic, the metric and the monolith as usual, or at least as of Dec. 2004 are planned like this, very logically. 140mm classic and metric frames can be fitted as usual with an orbix. Not sure for the monolith which is really something special. So the theoretical number of possible camera configurations is wider than before , even if only a small number of actual combinations really make sense. In between standards you attach new bellows the usual way. The latch style in the 140mm standard is the same as for the 6x9, the small and so convenient semi-circular rotating, self-locking, "one-hand" latch.

On the new 140 mm lens boaards you can use an optional bayonet mount to reduce even more the overall size of your mounted lenses. Those using the 110 'field' or 6x9 boards will probably keep their 110 boards unchanged.

I agree with Glenn that a rail folding upwards and asymetrically would be great with any F-line series camera, but you'll certainly find people who prefer the traditional downward-folding rail...

An to Kerry T... and others. Some day you should cross the Atlantic, experience a ride in the high-speed train from Paris to Besançon and place a visit to the Vogt family. You'll certainly enjoy it. From Paris you can do the trip plus return in one day, 2 1/2 hours each way downtown to downtown.

[Greg Miller]

Here are some pictures of the new Arca-Swiss F-Line Field www.gregmillerphotography.com/arcaswissfield.htm (http://www.gregmillerphotography.com/arcaswissfield.htm). This has the Misura bellows and the 140mm rear standard.

Sorry about the poor image quality - I had to use a point & shoot digital camera. If anyone wants specific detailed shots or high res shots emailed to them just send me an email at mail @ GregMillerPhotography dot com.

[Greg Miller]

I should point out that in the photos I have a Wimberley 90 degree plate between the A-S rail clamp and the RRS clamp. The Wimberley plate has a screw in clamp which securely holds the A-S rail clamp and also fits securley in the RRS clamp. This is my set-up until the new RRS B29 plate that Rory mentioned arrives.

[Frank Petronio]

Pretty sweet little guy... I'd say that is one step closer to perfection - really darn close! So how $ and who has them in stock?

[Glenn Kroeger]

Emanuel, Kerry, et al:

Anybody know if micrometric orbix can be used on a rear standard? I am thinking of an optimized AS 69 for future use with digital backs and lenses where coverage is limited and tilts very small, given the apparently emerging standard size of 36x48mm for the imager. I don't really want the extra size, mass and cost of the monolith approach.

[Greg Miller]

"So how $ and who has them in stock?"

I bought mine directly from Diane Henry at PhotoPlus Expo in NYC. The list price is $3,199. She was offering a show discount so I took it. I'm not sure how she would feel about me announcing her discount on the internet but email me directly and I may be persuaded to divulge that little secret. The show was in late October an my camera arrived yesterday so it took about 6 weeks to arrive. I think it came via Canada for some reason and I believe customs accounted for about 2 weeks of the wait time.

[Glenn Kroeger]

Greg:

Since you were at PhotoPlus Expo, can you add anything about other Arca-Swiss items shown there? For example, were you able to look at the Misura or were any new "digital" accessories shown? How about the Arca-Swiss quick release compared to the RRS?

[Greg Miller]

Glenn - unfortunately I was running short on time when I stumbled upon the Arca-Swiss booth and did not have time to look at anything else. I only had time to sign the sales form and dash off.

[Glenn Kroeger]

Greg:

Looks like you did pretty well in a short amount of time!

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Greg,

Thanks for sharing the pictures of your new camera. It certainly is a beauty.

After looking at the pictures, it appears the only differences between the new model and the older F-Line Field are the 140mm back frame and the longer Misura bellows. Is that correct?

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Emanuel,

Since you seem to have the most information on the new ARCA-SWISS products, perhaps you can answer a question for me. Any chance that the new 140mm ARCA-SWISS lens boards are compatible with the Sinar boards of the same size? There's a ton of Sinar gear showing up on eBay these days at historically low prices. It would be great if it would be possible to use the Sinar shutters andDB mounted lenses on the new 140mm ARCA-SWISS standards. I doubt if it's possible, but it was the first question that popped into my mind when I saw the size of the new ARCA-SWISS standards.

Thanks,
Kerry

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

To Greg. Many thanks for posting the images of your new 110->140 'field' on the Internet. I hope you'll enjoy the camera and I'm sure that your feedback will make his way to Horgen and Besancon.
Every Arca Swiss user was gently complaining about the HUGE 171 boards as being too big. The problem could be solved by using a 110-171 adapting board. Now the problem is solved, but as far as I understand it was a difficult problem of mechanical engineering, not for lensboads, but of course for the springback. People using 110 mm boards can use the new 140 mm boards with a new 110->140 adapting board. Personnaly with my 6x9 when I'm ready for 4"x5" I'll proceed to Greg's configuration : one additional bellows, one additional frame, and go ! 140 mm boards offer more shift capabilities than the 110. And if you need even more you'll be able to use indirect rise with a pair of classic/metric function supports.

To Kerry. I have no idea whether the 140 mm standard was aimed at some kind of compatibility with the Sinar equipment. If Arca Swiss does not consider adapting boards to Sinar equipment with the new 140 mm standard (this was possible with the 171 boards, certainly more difficult in 140 mm) for sure a 3-rd party company could offer this. For example S.K. Grimes offers a solution to adapt Linhof Technika 96x99 boards to the small 110x110 A/S board. They use a trick that slightly degrades by about 1 cm the minimum bellows drag that you can achieve with an original A/S camera, but it works. The new A/S 140mm cameras are now ready to accept lenses shorter than the 35 m apo-grandagon. To me degrading by one or two cm the minimum bellows drag is not a big deal for 4"x5".

Users of digital sensors will appreciate the capability to mount the shortest possible focal lengths available on the market. Mounting a digital 35 mm reflex camera body is of course technically feasilble but with severe restrictions in minimum bellows drag imposed by the presence of the reflex mirror itself and imposed by the fact that a 35mm professional digital reflex camera is very bulky compared to a 140 mm frame, it cannot be made re-entrant into the camera body itself. Moreover using a 35m reflex camera on a view camera body means that you intend do apply some tilts & shift. There come another problem : vignetting by the reflex chamber itself. To me the configuration looks doable "on paper" except for wide angle configurations. For tele- or macro work, no problem. For wide-angle shots, say : architecture, direct use of a film or silicon sensor without a reflex mirror is a much better solution, although 24mm tilt+shift lenses for 35 mm reflex cameras can do a good job, but not as convenient as a flexible precision view camera 100% free from the constraints of the flipping mirror.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Anybody know if micrometric orbix can be used on a rear standard?

Greg. Again, to the best of my knowledge, there is no problem to fit an orbix at rear. The orbix is included inside the base of the format frame. You just send your frame back to... Precision Camera Works in the US or to Besançon (check with your usual contact person at A/S ;-), the frame will come back with the orbix fitted. You slide-in the dovetail as usual. On my 6x9 I can do what I want and swap the front/rear frames to put the orbix at rear if I want to experiment. The extra height of the orbix is smaller than 1 cm. The micrometric orbix has the control knob on the left, I do not think that it will interfere with the function carrier control knobs. I'm pretty sure that the idea of a micrometric orbix control knob on the right-hand side is not absurd.

[Greg Miller]

Some people have requested measurements of the camera:

Height of camera, rail folded: 12.5"
Width of rear standard, rise knob to rise knob: 7.5 "
length of rail folded: 6.5"

So the inside dimensions of a case to hold the camera without disassembling the standards would be at least 6.5" x 7.5" x 12.5". This configuration would mean moving both stanrds to the same half of the folding rail, removing the rail bracket, and folding the rail.

[Tom Westbrook]

Thanks a million for the info on this. I'd love one, but the cost is probably prohibitive (I assume in the $3000+ range). I hope Arca Swiss will be offering a conversion rear frame/bellows set for those of us with the "old" version of the Field camera.

[Frank Petronio]

It might sooteh your soul to rationalize that the smaller bellows are more flare-prone than your larger 171mm bellows, and while the 171mm lensboards are about the largest things around, you will never have to futz with those stupid flexible recessed cable release gadgets or worry about mounting a large Ilex shutter on one.

[Frank Petronio]

soothe...

[Pete Roody]

At the PhotoExpo, Arca also announced that they would be coming out with an 8x10 version that will weigh in between 7-8 lbs.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Peter. I recently manipulated the new 8"x10" "light" prototype. It is the great sister of the misura with a front 140mm standard+orbix and a rear simplified misura function carrier to reduce weight.

[Greg Miller]

I just realized that the rear standard was not lowered completed when I measured. Here are corrected measurements (only change is to the height):

Height of camera, rail folded: 11.5" Width of rear standard, rise knob to rise knob: 7.5 " length of rail folded: 6.5"