PDA

View Full Version : Stand and semi-stand development...is there a primer?



Kimberly Anderson
22-Oct-2014, 06:16
Looking around I haven't really seen any kind of an 'archive' that discusses stand and semi-stand development.

I am wondering what developers people seem to gravitate towards, times, dilutions, techniques, equipment, etc...

I've got a slew of hard-rubber tanks of various sizes and a wide variety of sizes of film hangars from 8x10 to 2x3.

I can also mix any developer from scratch, so relying on what I've got on hand is not an issue.

I will say I am prone to using Pyro PMK in my JOBO and I shoot a lot of HP5+.

Kind of wondering what I should expect from stand development. I've done some reading and am seeing what to expect 'in theory' and yes, I do understand the limitations of personal EI + scanning a negative or a print + the limitations of showing a .jpg online + personal preferences, etc...

Looking for any and all input honestly. I am considering doing the majority of my processing with hangars and tanks and slowly phasing out the JOBO. I do shoot an awful lot of 4x10 though, so I think I will need to continue to use the expert drum to process those. I do not know of any 4x10 film hangars. I do have some 4-up 4x5 development hangars...maybe I can modify them to process 4x10...that is another thread though I think.

Anyway, thanks for your comments in advance. I'm very interested in real world experience to see what you all have done. :)

Adding some links while I can:

Melka Martinez (http://www.martinzimelka.com/homepage/Blog/Entries/2011/5/28_EFKE_25_Stand_Developed_in_Rodinal.html)

J B Hildebrand (http://jbhildebrand.com/2011/tutorials/workflow-tutorial-2-stand-development-with-rodinal/)

Matthew Osborne (http://mrleica.com/2013/08/02/rodinal-stand-development/)

Jason Watts (http://www.everythingbloom.com/stand-development-tutorial-by-jason-watts-photography)

Daniel Hewes (http://www.danimalweb.co.uk/blog/2011/01/28/an-introduction-to-stand-development/)

Max Hao
22-Oct-2014, 06:34
Michael,

I have been processing 8x10 Fomopan film in Obsidian Aqua (1:750) semi-stand. I stir for the first 1.5 minutes, then let it sit for 30 minutes, and stir for 30 seconds. After another 30 minutes, I stop the processing with water, then fix in TF-3 for 4 minutes. I also get very good results using Rodinal 1:100 with the same method.
BTW, I use an orbital tray and at least 350ml working solution to get the film fully submerged. Hope this helps.

Max

Monty McCutchen
22-Oct-2014, 06:39
Search Steve Sherman's posts. He is the master of Semi-Stand as well as Sandy.

best,

Monty

Bob Mann
22-Oct-2014, 07:22
It is fairly easy to shorten an 8x10 hanger to take 4x10 film. I cut the sides shorter and used epoxy to reattach the bottom rail, not pretty but they work OK.

Kimberly Anderson
22-Oct-2014, 07:40
Thanks for the idea Bob. I'll try one and see how it works. I think I have about 40 8x10 hangars...


It is fairly easy to shorten an 8x10 hanger to take 4x10 film. I cut the sides shorter and used epoxy to reattach the bottom rail, not pretty but they work OK.

jbenedict
22-Oct-2014, 08:56
When I have used stand or compensating development, I used HC-110, diluted 1:60 from stock. I don't use the 'syringe and syrup" method. With such dilute developer, a lot of developer needs to be present, 25ml of stock for each 8x10 sheet or its equivalent. (56ml stock = 3360 ml water for 8x10) I have used a piece of 4" PVC tube, 14.5" long with caps on both ends. Inside the tube, I glued window screen material (plastic) to allow chemicals to flow behind the film. I used RTV caulk around the ends of the tube to glue it and used a long screwdriver to spread the caulk inside on the seam of the window screen. Plumbing stores have the caps for the ends in with all of the other fittings. The PVC caps are tight but are relatively easy to loosen up with sandpaper if necessary. There are also rubber caps available in the plumbing section. I float it in a plastic washpan filled with tempered water. I have used this tube for all of my 8x10 work, not just compensating development. This tube will hold the 3416ml of developer needed and will keep the film immersed in developer when the tube is stood on end. That's a lot but you won't need that much stop or fix.

When developing with the tube, I rotate it so there is one revolution of the tube every 2 or 3 seconds, for both regular and compensating development. Agitation with normal times is constant. Agitation for compensating development is 30 sec. out of each 4 min. of the 26 min. used for processing. Temperature is 68F In the times between agitations, the tube must be motionless and upright. I have used a 5 gal. bucket with tempered water to stand the tube. Again, the large amount of developer present is necessary to keep the film immersed in developer during the time the tube is upright. Any corrections for reciprocity failure are applied at this time.

Regular procedures can be followed for the stop bath and fixing bath.

I use Tri-X 320 for this and, when I do, I rate it at ASA 40. YMMV depending on the film you use. For HP5+, these times/dilutions/ASA would be where I would start.

It works really well, I have gotten N-2 to N-4 with this method.


Jeff

Michael Graves
22-Oct-2014, 09:09
I like semi-stand personally. I use my Jobo 3010 for the purpose. I've had success with Rodinal, diluted 1:200 and with HC-100, diluted 1:400. Both developers are used by presoaking the film for 3 minutes, as close to developer temp as I can keep it. Then I pour in the developer--fill the drum all the way up. Agitate continously for 2 minutes (which I do on the Jobo) and then I let it stand for 30 minutes. Agitate for 2 minutes and stand for another 30 minutes. Agitate for 2 minutes, rinse and fix. I know this is somewhat different than the general recommendations, but it is what has worked for me. I haven't had major issues with streaking.

Kimberly Anderson
22-Oct-2014, 09:21
Michael, when you fill your 3010 drum all the way up, doesn't it weigh about 10lbs? I would be nervous to run my JOBO with a drum full of liquid. I'm sure you have some other tricks to do this, would you share them?

Also, is anyone using PMK for stand development?

Andrew O'Neill
22-Oct-2014, 09:42
I rarely use stand. For me, what it does to the negative is too aggressive. It's also risky and one should shoot a backup just incase. I prefer Semi-stand in Pyrocat-HD. Film usually gets an hour in the developer, with agitation occuring every 15 minutes for 5 seconds. I use BTZS tubes. 4x5 and 8x10. Another excellent developer for semi-stand is Obsidian Aqua.

Steve Sherman
22-Oct-2014, 18:05
When I have used stand or compensating development, I used HC-110, diluted 1:60 from stock. I don't use the 'syringe and syrup" method. With such dilute developer, a lot of developer needs to be present, 25ml of stock for each 8x10 sheet or its equivalent. (56ml stock = 3360 ml water for 8x10)
It works really well, I have gotten N-2 to N-4 with this method.


Jeff


Greetings, I agree with the comment about an ample amount of developer solution needs be present with such a dilute ratio.

Having recently taught a Power of Pyro workshop those in the class can attest that the difference in negative acutance between Pyrocat HD and HC 110 is striking to put it mildly. Very quickly, the way that HC 110 permeates the emulsion silver migration begins and continues on throughout the entire time in solution, Silver migration degrades the acutance and softens the edge of the grain structure. Whereas Pyro based developers are topical in nature, Pyro hardens the gelatin layer preserving a tight grain pattern and does not allow the emulsion to swell and lose acutance. PyroCat is a Pyrocathchin based developer yielding extremely fine grain while Pyogallol (Weston's ABC formula) is derived from Pyrogallic acid. Pyrogallol is very fast acting, suffers from ariel oxidation rapidly and yields considerably larger grain structure. Pyrogallol (also PMK Pyro) yields a green stain good for UV process negatives whereas PyroCat yields a decidedly brown stain which enhances contrast with Multi Grade Silver Papers while still producing good results with UV type final process prints such as PT / PD or other alternative processes.

Here is a great link which came about 10 years ago when I first perfected the modern day Semi-Stand technique.
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/24023-semi-stand-description-illustratvie-photo.html

Andrew O'Neill
22-Oct-2014, 18:19
PyroCat yields a decidedly brown stain which enhances contrast with Multi Grade Silver Papers while still producing good results with UV type final process prints such as PT / PD or other alternative processes.

HP5 is a very difficult film to print in carbon transfer. The only way I could ever get decent results was by stand/semi-stand in pyrocat, or regular development in a high contrast developer, such as D-19.

Steve Sherman
22-Oct-2014, 18:46
HP5 is a very difficult film to print in carbon transfer. The only way I could ever get decent results was by stand/semi-stand in pyrocat, or regular development in a high contrast developer, such as D-19.

Reduced Agitation forms of Film Development can actually alter a film's characteristic curve, never before possible, that said, HP5 while controllable produces a higher oxidation stain than many other films, that alone makes the film less than desirable for any process which demands a UV light source. Combine that with the contrast index of HP5 produces a longer toe and shoulder than FP4, Delta films, T Max films and Tri-X. Alternative processes demand as long a straight line as possible, hence, even in Silver printing I see little value to HP5, especially when you consider the incredible power of contrast contraction with Reduced Agitation forms of Development.

Cheers !

Kimberly Anderson
22-Oct-2014, 19:04
Methinks it's time to rethink my affection for HP5+...

Michael Graves
23-Oct-2014, 05:27
Michael, when you fill your 3010 drum all the way up, doesn't it weigh about 10lbs? I would be nervous to run my JOBO with a drum full of liquid. I'm sure you have some other tricks to do this, would you share them?

Also, is anyone using PMK for stand development?

I don't run the drum on the Jobo with it's completely full. My reputation for insanity might be justifiably attained, but not from that! I only use the Jobo machine for presoak, and for presoak, I use 750mm of water. During the stand, it's doing just that...standing.

James Morris
23-Oct-2014, 07:18
Combine that with the contrast index of HP5 produces a longer toe and shoulder than FP4, Delta films, T Max films and Tri-X. Alternative processes demand as long a straight line as possible, hence, even in Silver printing I see little value to HP5, especially when you consider the incredible power of contrast contraction with Reduced Agitation forms of Development.

My understanding of HP5 is that it does have a long straight line -- did I read your comment correctly?

jbenedict
23-Oct-2014, 08:26
Methinks it's time to rethink my affection for HP5+...

Do your methods and materials give you the results you desire?

Andrew O'Neill
23-Oct-2014, 09:42
Depending on developer used and dilution, HP5+'s curve can be altered somewhat... but not to the extremes as TMY-2. With Xtol 1:1, HP5+ shows a shorter toe, and a slight hump in the middle of the straight line section of the curve. I'll keep using it because I appreciate it's look, speed... and how it renders highlights.

Steve Sherman
23-Oct-2014, 18:55
Possibly a better description of HP 5 is that it's straight line, as least to me is shorter than others, one thing for certain, it is not as steep a straight line as many other films. When you approach negative making the way I do, the very lowest and highest of tones, no matter the final process are easily controllable, usually easily identifiable, I like to think of those two extremes as Levels in PS, I can't even bring myself to say the nastyness. That leaves Curves in PS, to me akin to the Straight line of a film's characteristic curve, most would agree we'd like the longest and steepest straight line possible. Many other films exhibit the latter traits over those of HP5.

Cheers

jshanesy
23-Oct-2014, 21:17
The trick with HP-5 is where on the straight line portion of the curve you put the range of tones you are shooting. With 400 TMax it doesn't matter much because it's so die straight out to a density of almost 3. You can move whatever range of tones your picture has up and down that straight line all you want to. However, with HP-5 you start clipping the highlights at a lower density. You can still achieve a density of about 2.0 (https://www.google.com/search?q=hp5+characteristic+curve&biw=1201&bih=797&tbm=isch&imgil=lx7Rgm7HucOQmM%253A%253BkKG-tWDCeJQ3QM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.largeformatphotography.info%25252Fforum%25252Farchive%25252Findex.php%25252Ft-50955.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=lx7Rgm7HucOQmM%253A%252CkKG-tWDCeJQ3QM%252C_&usg=__X9fxELdZF15At21FC6sghsl28CE%3D&ved=0CD0Qyjc&ei=lNFJVNmnKILGsQSEmIDADQ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=6C0seWY28spRqM%253A%3BkKG-tWDCeJQ3QM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.kenleegallery.com%252Fimages%252Fforum%252Fhp5curve.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.largeformatphotography.info%252Fforum%252Farchive%252Findex.php%252Ft-50955.html%3B326%3B330) with it and that's far more range than any gelatin silver paper can hold.

I've recently made the switch from 400 TMax to HP-5+ and get wonderful results with it. You just have to be a little more careful with it not to blow highlights.

James Morris
24-Oct-2014, 03:07
That's pretty much what I thought re HP5. I use it to capture the strong contrasty light here in Australia, giving generous exposure and reduced development, and think of it as a low contrast film which behaves very linearly within limits.

Kimberly Anderson
24-Oct-2014, 08:02
Do your methods and materials give you the results you desire?

Well, yes...and no. I am getting some really nice gentle pt/pd prints from my negs. The PMK makes printing everything so easy and I never have to worry about taming contrast. I have plenty of shadow detail and the highlights come in nicely.

The thing that I really don't see is that when I want to do a N+1 or N+2 I'm not getting the really punchy contrast out of the film the way that I would like. I do like HP5+ in that the speed allows me to get an extra stop or two (my personal EI is 200 with it).

I've used HP5+ exclusively (except for the random batches of extremely old expired 8x10 film), for about 4-5 years and I am happy with the negatives. The nice thing about them is I can contact print them in gelatin silver very easily as well. So...allegedly the PMK is doing it's job well, that is allowing me to make negatives that can both alt print and gelatin silver print well.

After a stack of negatives almost 8 inches tall I think I can say it's safe to explore other types of films.

BUT...the main reason I am asking about stand development is that I have run into a large supply of 8x10 hard rubber tanks and all the film hangars one could want. Previously I had been processing in the JOBO and loved the results. I am tired though of the limitation of only processing 5 sheets of large film at a time (8010 drum). If I could process 20 sheets at a time then the stand development starts to really look appealing, even with it's extended processing time.

Thanks for EVERYONE'S input. I have learned a lot in this thread. I haven't made any decisions yet, but it's starting to come together.

Peter De Smidt
24-Oct-2014, 08:59
My experience with HP5+ and PMK was that it wasn't a good combo for expansion development, at least with VC silver gelatin papers.

Jim Noel
24-Oct-2014, 12:53
Well, yes...and no. I am getting some really nice gentle pt/pd prints from my negs. The PMK makes printing everything so easy and I never have to worry about taming contrast. I have plenty of shadow detail and the highlights come in nicely.

The thing that I really don't see is that when I want to do a N+1 or N+2 I'm not getting the really punchy contrast out of the film the way that I would like. I do like HP5+ in that the speed allows me to get an extra stop or two (my personal EI is 200 with it).

I've used HP5+ exclusively (except for the random batches of extremely old expired 8x10 film), for about 4-5 years and I am happy with the negatives. The nice thing about them is I can contact print them in gelatin silver very easily as well. So...allegedly the PMK is doing it's job well, that is allowing me to make negatives that can both alt print and gelatin silver print well.

After a stack of negatives almost 8 inches tall I think I can say it's safe to explore other types of films.

BUT...the main reason I am asking about stand development is that I have run into a large supply of 8x10 hard rubber tanks and all the film hangars one could want. Previously I had been processing in the JOBO and loved the results. I am tired though of the limitation of only processing 5 sheets of large film at a time (8010 drum). If I could process 20 sheets at a time then the stand development starts to really look appealing, even with it's extended processing time.

Thanks for EVERYONE'S input. I have learned a lot in this thread. I haven't made any decisions yet, but it's starting to come together.

The slower the film, the better it expands. You are fighting an uphill battle when trying to expand HP5+ or any other film in that speed range. FP4+ expands beautifully with essentially any developer. It is my standard film since 90-95% of my images are printed with any one of several alternate processes.

Steve Sherman
24-Oct-2014, 15:18
Well, yes...and no. I am getting some really nice gentle pt/pd prints from my negs. The PMK makes printing everything so easy and I never have to worry about taming contrast. I have plenty of shadow detail and the highlights come in nicely.

The thing that I really don't see is that when I want to do a N+1 or N+2 I'm not getting the really punchy contrast out of the film the way that I would like. I do like HP5+ in that the speed allows me to get an extra stop or two (my personal EI is 200 with it).

I've used HP5+ exclusively (except for the random batches of extremely old expired 8x10 film), for about 4-5 years and I am happy with the negatives. The nice thing about them is I can contact print them in gelatin silver very easily as well. So...allegedly the PMK is doing it's job well, that is allowing me to make negatives that can both alt print and gelatin silver print well.

After a stack of negatives almost 8 inches tall I think I can say it's safe to explore other types of films.

BUT...the main reason I am asking about stand development is that I have run into a large supply of 8x10 hard rubber tanks and all the film hangars one could want. Previously I had been processing in the JOBO and loved the results. I am tired though of the limitation of only processing 5 sheets of large film at a time (8010 drum). If I could process 20 sheets at a time then the stand development starts to really look appealing, even with it's extended processing time.

Thanks for EVERYONE'S input. I have learned a lot in this thread. I haven't made any decisions yet, but it's starting to come together.

Im sorry I don't have time to expand on this with a more detailed answer, quite simply, Semi-Stand, Extreme Minimal Agitation or Reduced Agitation schemes of developing film rely on extremely dilute chemistry for the actual effect to take place, therefore each piece of film needs to have an excessive amount of solution of continue to benefit from the technique. My benchmark for amount of solution is each sq. inch of film needs 15 ml of solution, one 8x10 needs approx. 1200 - 1400 ml of solution Sandy King says that solution can be used for one more sheet of 8x10 film. My results have not been successful the second time around.
More on Film Characteristic Curve later.

murphy
24-Oct-2014, 15:30
I believe I understand expansion development, having been taught Zone system perspective, how do you view, or explain expansion when preparing a negative for Alt processes?

Ken Lee
24-Oct-2014, 15:59
I believe I understand expansion development, having been taught Zone system perspective, how do you view, or explain expansion when preparing a negative for Alt processes?

You might find this article helpful: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html