Shen Hao XPO vs. Linhof Technika V

[richardman]

I know, I know, another one of those lame-arse "which one is better post" for which the answer is always, "YES" :-) but hear me out please.

Background: I am doing a project of costumers (cosplayers) in and out of their costumes, with 4x5 Provia. Here's the work in progress:
http://richardmanphoto.com/PICS/TransformationsCosplay-InProgress/

All of those are taken with a Chamonix F1, some with studio flash. As I mentioned elsewhere, I just want to optimize the workflow a little bit. The Chamonix does not have detents, and I have to tighten down the front standard, then make sure everything is parallel etc. In terms of absolute time spent, it's nothing compare to posing them, finding the location, etc. etc. but it's something added and fussing around equipments is not a good thing. I would often have the camera unfolded but still the bellow has to be shortened etc...

So I am thinking either a Shen Hao XPO or a Linhof Technika would be a plus as the standards are by default parallel. I just put the camera on tripod, slide the front standard out to marked positions and voila, ready to focus and shoot.

Cost for a new SH XPO is $1050, cost for a used Technika V seems to be from $1200-$1800, so lets call it $1500.

Weight is similar.

The Technika folds up into its own case, and with cammed lens, I can shoot handheld for some situations. I can get any lens cammed for around $550 (BTW, if anyone knows a good craftsman who can do a great job for less money, please let me know), so I can cam my Cooke PS945 that way. I understand that the RF is probably not in the right spot within the proper composition, so there is a limit to handheld photography, but the option is there, if I want.

Of course, handheld means holding 8 lbs+, so hmmm...

Anyone, what are the other PROs and CONs as you see them? Any comments?

I would definitely keep the Chamonix F1 for "field use" as it is much lighter and have assymmetrical tilt.

Thanks.

[Hugo Zhang]

Richard,

Have you thought of a 45 reflex camera like Graflex super d for portraits?

[richardman]

Richard,

Have you thought of a 45 reflex camera like Graflex super d for portraits?

Yes Hugo, your Tibet photos are definitely inspirational. I think a bunch of us are/were looking into Super-D because of your photos! :-)

A couple things:
a) Reflex LF is huge. I am 5'4" 135lbs. If nothing else, I think t may look a bit comical for me to hold a giant SLR
b) in one of the earlier threads about using RLF for quick portraits, someone makes the comment that the wooden camera is more "friendly" looking to a subject, than a big honking Canon with zoom lens or a LF SLR. I think there are some truth to that.
c) no readily available package... a stock Super-D does not have rotating back, does not use generic film holder, probably needs a CLA etc. The Aero-Liberator guy will convert a super d to a nice shape ready to go, but cost around $2000 for the service. I am not handy nor do I have the time like Ed Sawyer who did his own conversion. So....

[Jac@stafford.net]

Consider the Linhof Super Technika for its rangefinder and add an external viewfinder.
Setup is fast, and shooting when the subject moves is very quick and easy.
.

[Richard Johnson]

A monorail and heavy tripod would be even faster, square, and more robust. Save the Chamonix and lighter tripod for field work.

A quality monorail has all advantage except weight and bulk. If you are already doing more complex set-ups with lighting, adding a few more pounds to the gear wouldn't outweigh the benefits. Might make sense for that Cooke.

Handholding a Technika for portraits can work but they will never be as controlled as tripod shots, I suspect you'd see a large difference between the two techniques.

[richardman]

Actually, I was thinking may be a monorail should be considered too, but have no experience there (recall I only started on this LF thing a couple years ago).

So what's a quick to set up Monorail, without too much weight? Obviously serpentine movements are not needed.

Thanks.

[David A. Goldfarb]

A Technika with a cammed lens and parallax corrected zoom finder is great on a tripod for portraits, because you can focus with a holder loaded and ready to shoot, but I doubt that Linhof would cam a Cooke PS945, because soft focus lenses by definition don't have a definitive focal position for a given subject distance. They won't cam an Imagon, as far as I know. Where you focus in the image depends on the aperture and the effect you are trying to achieve, so there's no way to do it effectively without looking at the groundglass or using an LF SLR.

[richardman]

... but I doubt that Linhof would cam a Cooke PS945, because soft focus lenses by definition don't have a definitive focal position for a given subject distance..

True! I forgot about that. There is a slight focus shift with the PS945 as you stop down. Hmm... that sort of takes the Technika out of running. Thanks.

[analoguey]

Most monorails are upwards of 4-5 kilos afaik - what's the weight you're looking to lug around? At 1000 US you get very nice Sinar Ps, Cambos, Toyos etc.,
But they wont be as quick as a hand-held set-up for sure.

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] but I doubt that Linhof would cam a Cooke PS945, because soft focus lenses by definition don't have a definitive focal position for a given subject distance. [...]

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't paying attention to the Cooke PS945 requirement.
.

[DrTang]

what's wrong with tripods? if you're using studio flash. you're carrying lightstands and all the rest anyway

my suggestion: get a lightish tripod, get a crown graphic or linhof III or super speed graphic, stick that cooke on it, ignore the rangefinder if it has one - and get yourself some string

tie one end of the string to the tripod, find a bored bystander and stand them out about the distance you are going to photograph them at.. then they hold the string to the tip of their nose while you focus - - lock that focus down

from then on you just park your model somewhere and either move the camera or have them move so that the string hits their nose - then shoot

[Dan Fromm]

Richard, the Super D has a rotating back. Ask SKGrimes for the cost of converting to Graflok, be aware that film holders to fit 4x5 Graflex (that's what the Super D has) can be found. $2k for the conversion seems high. And, if you look comical that will put your models/subjects at ease.

Alternatives that haven't been mentioned include just about every 4x5 press and technical camera made. If you're going to use just one lens, Graphics (Speed and Crown) with Kalart rangefinders can probably be set up for the lens of your choice. Top RF Graphics need a cam for each lens, this can be a problem. Just pull the front standard out to the infinity stops for the lens you're using and you're set up.

About setting a Graphic with Kalart up for a PS945 or Imagon, well, infinity stops are movable and you're in charge, not a technician who can't know exactly what you want.

If you're shooting from tripod, well, press or technical again. Just pull the front standard out to the infinity stops for the lens you're using and you're set up. Setting a monorail up is more work.

[Ari]

You could also consider the Wista RF; less expensive than the Technika, zero-detents, fast set-up, and takes Technika boards.
It has lots of movements, if you need them, and some of the details are superior to the Technika (i.e. folding hood and GG screen).
The drawback is that the RF works only with 135mm, 150mm and 180mm lenses, but no cams needed.

[Jac@stafford.net]

what's wrong with tripods? if you're using studio flash. you're carrying lightstands and all the rest anyway

hold the string to the tip of their nose while you focus - - lock that focus down

from then on you just park your model somewhere and either move the camera or have them move so that the string hits their nose - then shoot

True!

May I add the use of a lightweight dolly below the tripod to move the unit quickly and easily if you are working on a relatively smooth surface. I don't know the brand name of the one I used, but can check it this afternoon. Mine has clips to secure the legs, and locks for the wheels, but using locks is really not always necessary. (This is a good thread and has reminded me that I was going to look for bigger wheels for it.)

[Jim Noel]

Yes Hugo, your Tibet photos are definitely inspirational. I think a bunch of us are/were looking into Super-D because of your photos! :-)

A couple things:
a) Reflex LF is huge. I am 5'4" 135lbs. If nothing else, I think t may look a bit comical for me to hold a giant SLR
b) in one of the earlier threads about using RLF for quick portraits, someone makes the comment that the wooden camera is more "friendly" looking to a subject, than a big honking Canon with zoom lens or a LF SLR. I think there are some truth to that.
c) no readily available package... a stock Super-D does not have rotating back, does not use generic film holder, probably needs a CLA etc. The Aero-Liberator guy will convert a super d to a nice shape ready to go, but cost around $2000 for the service. I am not handy nor do I have the time like Ed Sawyer who did his own conversion. So....

You are larger than Dorothea Lange who additionally had a bad foot, and she used a 5x7 Graflex. Go for it.

[Richard Johnson]

A monorail remains set up all the time, just put it on a tripod. In the real world you get a case - either a special dedicated case or a plastic milk crate - and hang it upside down from the rail, lens mounted and ready to go. Yes they are heavier and bulkier but also more solid and able to take a wack without losing zero. You can get a Sinar or Linhof or other higher end, heavy duty model for a fraction of the price of a popular camera, makes a great alternative to the Chamonix you already have.

A Crown or the fixed back Shen Hao might be OK but I would be concerned about running out of bellows with the Cooke once you move closer for portraits. Plus they are going to be really pretty much the same thing as what you already got except have detents. For that matter just leave the Chamonix assembled with the lens in place and verticals locked down snug... carry it in a box, like a plastic cooler with some padding. Send me $1000 for the money I saved you.

I've found the Chamonix to be rock solid compared to other lightweight cameras so maybe just learn how to deal with it better?

[richardman]

May be I need better photo assistant. Currently, I have none :-) I have tried to carry the camera (with the film holders etc.) AND a Profoto setup (with portable battery no less), on my &^#&*^$ back, down some concrete steps to an underpass. It wasn't fun. Yes, I have conflicting requirements, depending on the shooting situations.

Anyway, thanks for all the hints. Lots to think about.

[Bob Salomon]

A Technika with a cammed lens and parallax corrected zoom finder is great on a tripod for portraits, because you can focus with a holder loaded and ready to shoot, but I doubt that Linhof would cam a Cooke PS945, because soft focus lenses by definition don't have a definitive focal position for a given subject distance. They won't cam an Imagon, as far as I know. Where you focus in the image depends on the aperture and the effect you are trying to achieve, so there's no way to do it effectively without looking at the groundglass or using an LF SLR.

This might not be correct. The reason Linhof does not cam an Imagon is that there is a focus shift with each different disk and with the peripheral holes on each disk opened or closed. And there is no definitive point of real sharpness with the Imagon.

The Cooke could be a totally different story. You should contact Bob Watkins at Precision Camera and ask him if he can cam the Cooke and what the charge is.
So you are aware, the cost for camming includes the cam, plotting the curve, cutting and grinding the cam to the specific lens, the infinity stops and the focusing scale and the mounting of the infinity stops and the focusing scale.

[richardman]

Yes, I am still conflicted :-) I am imagining pulling a Hugo Zhang and walk around China or Hong Kong (my native "country") and photograph portraits of random people. In that case, a monorail does not sound so good anymore again :-/

Well, I will make do with the Chamonix F1 for the moment and keep thinking about this. I have another set of cosplayers set up to go this weekend. It should be good. They are master costumers and in "normal" clothes, they wear mohawks :-)

[richardman]

Of course this is an inspiration: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?108246-With-a-large-format-camera-documentary-Humanities/

I tried to contact the photographer, but he never replied.

[Lachlan 717]

The primary reason for the XPO was to get a wooden field camera that accepted Sinar shutters. I wanted a field camera that I could shoot old barrel lenses on.

In addition, I wanted something with a fair bit of draw - 420mm on my version.

As for the comment about the XPO having a "fixed back", I am not sure what the Poster meant by this. It has a removable back that allows change from portrait to landscape. Simple undoing of 2 clips, spin 90 degrees and put back in.

Again, if you've ever considered shooting with barrel lenses, this would be a good choice. Add a Sinar shutter and a Universal iris and you're on your way!