What will my Sinar F2 4x5 do that a Chamonix 4x5 or Ebony 4x5 won't

[stradibarrius]

For those who have more experience than me is it necessary to have one of the better 4x5 field cameras and a high end monorail like a Sinar.
I have a Graflex Super Speed Graphic and it seems that the bellows are a bit short to do much semi close up work. Not macro but if I were out in the woods and saw a composition that had a mushroom in it requiring a "close up" shot the SSG doesn't have enough bellows to isolate the mushroom subject.

[koh303]

The sinar will do those things over any nice field camera:
It will not fold
It will be very heavy
It will be very big to transport
It will potentially offer a stiffer/sturdier camera at the cost of the above mentioned other "benefits"

[Peter Lewin]

Quick note: I owned a Sinar F, which was replaced first by a Wista/ZoneVI, and now by a Canham DLC^2. The answer to your question depends on what kind of photography you want to do. The Sinar has one more movement than most field cameras, rear rise. (My Canham, for example has rear tilt, swing, and shift, but not rise.) The Sinar can handle physically bigger lenses, because Sinar lens boards are larger; it can handle longer lenses, because with Sinar's modular system, you can continue to add rail sections, bellows frames and bellows, so that in theory you can handle as long focus a lens as you can get your hands on. The Sinar bag bellows is quite inexpensive, so it can handle very short lenses more cheaply than many field cameras (I can get a bag bellows for my Canham, but it is very expensive.) And the Sinar can be fitted with any of Sinar's behind-the-lens shutters. Bottom line, the Sinar system is ultimately more flexible. But if you don't need those particular features, a Sinar is heavier and more difficult to pack compactly than a good field camera.

[stradibarrius]

I don't really do macro work and if I want to do that I will use my digital gear. just makes more sense. I like to do portraits, table top still life subjects, some flowers and urban landscape or street photos. I would really like to get out with my LF ad not be restricted to close to the car. or figure out a workable way to carry my F2 out with me. Does anyone carry their monorail out for day hikes? if so how do you carry it? I have taken the F2 into the city to shoot some of the things you shoot in the city by putting the F2 case and tripod on a luggage dolly like you see in airports. That works fairly well but I wouldn't want to hike up a mountain and have to pull that little dolly.

[Preston]

Take a look at the Chamonix 045N-2 or the new F1. They are light, compact, and rigid camera--ideal for field use. They will handle a 300mm without the extension rack (max bellows draw w/o the rack is 395mm). I've had my N2 for a couple of years, and really like it.

045N-2 Specs are here (http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/45.html). The F1 specs are here (http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/045F1.html)

--P

[Ken Lee]

Respectfully, no single camera can be ideal for all applications.

[Bob Salomon]

The sinar will do those things over any nice field camera:
It will not fold
It will be very heavy
It will be very big to transport
It will potentially offer a stiffer/sturdier camera at the cost of the above mentioned other "benefits"

You left out, that like most modern monorails, it will have full movements, front and back and handle a wider range of lenses, wide to long as well as allow for greater macro ratios.

[Tim Meisburger]

I think the only reason to get a field camera is ease of portability. Otherwise, a monorail does everything better. My Ebony 45s is as rigid and precise as a monorail, and has the same movements, but uses a small (linhof) board and has limited bellows length. It is sufficient for me (especially since I have a Norma in the closet).

If you only want one camera, and you are normal in the sense that you want to shoot outside sometimes, then a field camera is the best compromise. If you only shoot in the studio, or do so a lot and can afford a second camera, then a monorail is the perfect choice. There is something really nice about having a camera in the house set up and ready to shoot anytime.

Most people, if they only have a monorail, will want a field camera. Many people are happy with just a field camera. Plus, if you only have a field camera, its easy and cheap to pick up a monorail as a second camera to throw in the closet (which truthfully is where mine lives).

My two cents, for what its worth.

[Peter Lewin]

I don't really do macro work and if I want to do that I will use my digital gear. just makes more sense. I like to do portraits, table top still life subjects, some flowers and urban landscape or street photos. I would really like to get out with my LF ad not be restricted to close to the car. or figure out a workable way to carry my F2 out with me. Does anyone carry their monorail out for day hikes? if so how do you carry it? I have taken the F2 into the city to shoot some of the things you shoot in the city by putting the F2 case and tripod on a luggage dolly like you see in airports. That works fairly well but I wouldn't want to hike up a mountain and have to pull that little dolly.
When I had my Sinar F, I certainly took it hiking. As you are probably aware, the Sinar F series was designed as their "field" camera, and by detaching the bellows from the front standard you could fold the two standards parallel to the rail, "pancaking" the camera for transit. I took off the extension rail, so the pancaked section was on a 6" rail, and dumped the whole thing into a medium unframed rucksack. I took along two lenses in wraps, plus the usual collection of holders, dark cloth, and light meter (i.e.nothing as sophisticated as padded compartments). It was fine for day hikes (and this was when I was in my 30s, not my current 60s). But I switched from the Sinar to first the Wista, and then my Canham, because they were lighter and packed more compactly. For what I was (and am) doing, the folding cameras worked better than the Sinar.

I sold the Sinar plus the Wista to buy the Canham. While I don't regret the decision, I sometimes wish I still had the Sinar (but only in addition to the Canham) because it was a little easier to use for table-top still lifes (although that just might be more nostalgia than fact, hard to say since I can't do a side-by-side comparison). And with the bigger lens board and the potential for behind the lens shutter, it might be fun to play with some of the antique lenses many people on this forum use and sell.

So in the end, we seem to choose similar subjects, and I made the decision to switch to a field camera. I thought the Canham was the most flexible of the field cameras in terms of what it could do (movements, bellows extension, etc.) but I have no experience with the Ebony system or the Chamonix, so my opinion is no more than just that, my own opinion.

[Adamphotoman]

I have packed my monorail [ Sinar Norma ] up a mountain. Not fun but once I got up there I much appreciated it's movements.

[Peter De Smidt]

I built a case that held a Sinar P 4x5 upside down by the rail out of thin plywood, glass fiber cloth, and epoxy. I made a rubber gasket to go between the lid and the main body. It was ugly as sin, but it was cheap, sturdy, light and highly water resistant. I used to bungie it to an aluminum external back pack frame for day hikes.

These days I use a Toyo AX in a Photobackpacker backpack for that sort of thing.

[gregmo]

I don't really do macro work and if I want to do that I will use my digital gear. just makes more sense. I like to do portraits, table top still life subjects, some flowers and urban landscape or street photos. I would really like to get out with my LF ad not be restricted to close to the car. or figure out a workable way to carry my F2 out with me. Does anyone carry their monorail out for day hikes? if so how do you carry it? I have taken the F2 into the city to shoot some of the things you shoot in the city by putting the F2 case and tripod on a luggage dolly like you see in airports. That works fairly well but I wouldn't want to hike up a mountain and have to pull that little dolly.

I have 2 monorails that I've hiked with. 4x5 Horseman LE & 5x7 Cambo SC. Both are roughly 10lbs. Each fit into my P1 backpack.

[Bernice Loui]

+1000...

There is not an ideal camera, there are cameras that can meet a specific set of individual needs.

Sinar offers great system flexibility, versatility, functionality and all that at the trade off of size weight and all that.

Field cameras offer low weight, portability with trade offs of rigidity, flexibility (bellows draw, use of extreme wide angle lenses), camera movements and ...


It is better to match the imaging needs to a specific camera rather than believe there is one ideal camera. This similar to different lenses that fit a specific imagine need.



Bernice



Respectfully, no single camera can be ideal for all applications.

[Ed Richards]

I retired my F2 for an Ebony to have an easier camera to carry. But the F2 did everything I need, and handles very wide lenses much better than my Ebony that is designed for them.

[stradibarrius]

Thanks Ed, This is the type info that someone that has had both can provide. I know one camera will not do everything, but understanding the pro's and con's helps with a decision if the difference is important to me.

[stradibarrius]

Peter this may be a solution for carrying it for day hikes. I have carried a backpack for years and I may try this and just carry my F2.
I built a case that held a Sinar P 4x5 upside down by the rail out of thin plywood, glass fiber cloth, and epoxy. I made a rubber gasket to go between the lid and the main body. It was ugly as sin, but it was cheap, sturdy, light and highly water resistant. I used to bungie it to an aluminum external back pack frame for day hikes.

These days I use a Toyo AX in a Photobackpacker backpack for that sort of thing.

[Struan Gray]

I have a Sinar Norma and a Toyo 45A. I vastly prefer the Norma, even in the field.

Movements are easier to apply, and I appreciate the flexibility of having full movements and focussing on the front and rear standards.

Several have said that monorails are more flexible with wide angles. I mostly shoot with longer lenses (240 and 420 mm), and a monorail is more stable and easier to use with them too.

On a couple of occasions I have told myself that my preference for Norma was just a question of habit, and have forced myself to use only the Toyo (leaving the 420 mm lens at home, as it won't work at all on the Toyo). I found that the only benefit was size, and that was marginal. The weight difference was not significant to me, and even after practicing setup and strip down, I didn't find the field camera any faster than the monorail - the precision and alignment of the monorail counter-acted the need to add a rail extension and the lack of a viewing hood.

The only circumstances where the Toyo wins is when I know I will only need (or be able to carry) one lens. Then I can fit a basic kit in a small shoulder bag. The Norma requires a larger bag or a schoolbook-sized rucksack. The difference is small, but it's easier to bicycle with the Toyo kit and a tripod. Neither camera is as compatible with family outings as MF or a DSLR, as both need a tripod, and both take a couple of minutes to set up.

[stradibarrius]

I also have a Super Speed Graphic and setting it up and making adjustments is certainly more difficult compared to my F2.

[Drew Wiley]

I think I can offer valid perspective because I shoot both systems, even under analogous conditions. The Sinar is going to be way for versatile and a lot faster to set up shoot if you learn how to properly transport it. In actual use it's not as heavy as you might think because you can totally dispense with any kind of tripod head and just use the rail clamp, and balance the rail anywhere along its length. It is obviously a system camera that can be reconfigured many ways, with a very wide range of potential components, and is especially nice when you want to shoot either very long or very wide lenses. I did literally hundreds of backpack trips with various Sinar F configurations under all kinds of weather conditions, and it did in fact go up quite a few mountains over the years. It is also going to be the obvious choice if you need to replace or repair parts quickly - the camera is rugged and there are jillions of used Sinars out there. But I currently prefer to use the older Sinar Norma system which is a tiny bit heavier, offers a superior tapered bellows in 4x5, and is fully interchangeable with modern Sinar parts. ... Now for the Ebony. It's superbly made but obviously wooden, so potentially more fragile, the titanium hardware is excellent, the fresnel gets condensation between it and the ground glass (I removed it and installed a modified Sinar glass). I have the simplified version with the"universal" bellows, which accepts lenses from about 80mm to 360mm without need for tophat, recessed board, or telephoto. Very compact for backpacking andairline travel, so my favorite rig where lightwt and compactness are the
priority, and only a few ounces heavier than far flimsier ultralight 4x5 folders. The Chamonix is a nice little rig based on the Phillips design and in my opinion a good value, but certainly not in the quality league of Ebony or Sinar. Ebony is expensive right now, Sinars a real bargain, except for old Normas where condition can be
an issue - but lovely examples of them do turn up. With Sinar you want to read the fine print and ask current users when shopping anything used.

[stradibarrius]

Drew, thanks...this is a great post with great information. It will be much cheaper to try carrying the Sinar first. If that doesn't work for I can always buy a folder of whatever type. Since my experience with my LF in the field has been limited to "close to the car" Trying the Sinar really out in the field will let me know rally what kind of shooter I am out in the woods. Heck the Spuer Speed Graphic may be all that I need...

[Bernice Loui]

The camera for over 30+ years to this day has become Sinar. Reason being, the Sinar system has the least limitations of any sheet film camera system on the market. This means bellows length is mostly limited by rail and rail support ability. The longest lens in the collection is a 35" Red D Artar using this on a field or folder is not going to be easy. Shortest lens is 47mm Super Angulon, with a bag bellows on the Sinar, it is quite useable even with camera movement. Beyond this, the Sinar shutter allows using most any lens within reasonable size that can fit mechanically on the lens board and if the lens element fits within the opening of the Sinar shutter. Beyond this, interchangeability of format size (roll film to 8x10 and larger), the Sinar filter system, bellows mask system, and more is why this has become the camera system of choice for me.

The C and C2 that has been dragged around all over to make images became my preference due to the stability and ease of using camera movements with accuracy and good range. Fully exploiting camera movements means precision as camera movements are often only a few degrees if of swing, tilt or combined swing& tile front, rear or both standards. There are few if any images that are made without using camera movements, the ability to easily and accurately do this is of extreme importance to me.

When doing macro work, the object can be mounted on a blank lens board fastened to a spare front standard. This front standard can be attached to the camera rail (keep adding rails as needed with proper support) with the entire set up positioned much like a copy stand with camera/lens and related all connected. This significantly improves stability as the object being imaged moves with the lens, film plane and related minimizing image blur due to camera shake/movement. Microscope objectives or reverse mounted enlarging lenses can be used if needed with a bit of creativity.

Over the years, I have owned a good number of field camera, folders and other mono rail cameras. Sinar is the only one that meets my image making needs, Know back packing and long distance travel to make images is not my thing. This negates the advantages of owning a field camera with light weight shuttered lenses. Of the field cameras owned and used over the years, The Linhof Technika, Toyo 810M, Canham DLC and Dorf stands out as being faves. These field cameras are nice to use, precise, stable, and all those great things excellent field cameras offer. They do not have the ability to use really long focal length lenses, really short focal length lens. As delivered, using barrel mounted lenses is less than ideal. combined front & rear camera movements are not always possible. They are light weigh, can be put in a back pack for ease of travel and all those good things.

Again, it is a trade off. It maybe ideal to own more than one camera or camera system with the choice being what and where images are to be made.



Bernice



I have a Sinar Norma and a Toyo 45A. I vastly prefer the Norma, even in the field.

Movements are easier to apply, and I appreciate the flexibility of having full movements and focussing on the front and rear standards.

Several have said that monorails are more flexible with wide angles. I mostly shoot with longer lenses (240 and 420 mm), and a monorail is more stable and easier to use with them too.

On a couple of occasions I have told myself that my preference for Norma was just a question of habit, and have forced myself to use only the Toyo (leaving the 420 mm lens at home, as it won't work at all on the Toyo). I found that the only benefit was size, and that was marginal. The weight difference was not significant to me, and even after practicing setup and strip down, I didn't find the field camera any faster than the monorail - the precision and alignment of the monorail counter-acted the need to add a rail extension and the lack of a viewing hood.

The only circumstances where the Toyo wins is when I know I will only need (or be able to carry) one lens. Then I can fit a basic kit in a small shoulder bag. The Norma requires a larger bag or a schoolbook-sized rucksack. The difference is small, but it's easier to bicycle with the Toyo kit and a tripod. Neither camera is as compatible with family outings as MF or a DSLR, as both need a tripod, and both take a couple of minutes to set up.

[andreios]

I am often tempted by a cute little thing like the Chamonix, but then I always realize how good for working my Sinar Norma is. I carry it all complete on the shortest rail (6inch I think), take it out from the backpack, screw on the head, add another piece of rail and there you go. I doubt I could be any quicker with a field camera. It's not that heavy, has all movements nicely laid out..

[Kodachrome25]

I had a Sinar F2 for about a week, bought it to do macro in the field. Once I got a tripod head that could handle the weight of the camera, I took it out and found that it was an enormous production to get the shot setup. This was especially true of scenes that were straight down like frozen features on lake shores and fallen leaves. In the end, I experienced that using my very rigid Chamonix was far easier and a lot more flexible in this capacity and of course a lot better for the high elevation hikes & ski mountaineering trips I take it on.

I guess I don't need a monorail as I really do need light and fast and don't do portraits in LF or still life shots at all. If I ever have proper studio space I could see getting a mint P2 as it is in my opinion, one of the most beautifully engineered and manufactured cameras in history.

[Drew Wiley]

Here's what I do for dayhiking. Forget carrying cases and dedicated camera cases with all that redundant foam packing. I use good ole fashioned "vintage" external
frame packs like true Kelty or Camp Trails (the real deal from the 60's & 70's - there are still plenty of them around in good condition). I drop a simple Rubbermaid
plastic kitchen wastebasket into the top compartment. The box of 4x5 filmholders drops into the bottom, then the Sinar (any of them) just drop into there fully assembled, even with a lens or lenshade, even darkcloth in place. Doesn't matter how long the rail is - even 24" or more - it just rests across the top. Lenses and filters etc just go into the side pouches in sandwich bags and bubble packing. Still lots of room left over for jackets, lunch, you name it, even a week's worth of backpacking and mtn gear, though that takes a bit more planning, but I have done it many,many times. The Sinar just pops out right onto the rail clamp (already mounted to the tripod), you pop the lens cap, slide the standards and start your tilts and fine focus. Fast.

[Bernice Loui]

Which is why field cameras really, really work from more than a few image makers.

There are no absolutes here, just the image making tool that works best and fits best with the needs of the image maker.



Bernice



I had a Sinar F2 for about a week, bought it to do macro in the field. Once I got a tripod head that could handle the weight of the camera, I took it out and found that it was an enormous production to get the shot setup. This was especially true of scenes that were straight down like frozen features on lake shores and fallen leaves. In the end, I experienced that using my very rigid Chamonix was far easier and a lot more flexible in this capacity and of course a lot better for the high elevation hikes & ski mountaineering trips I take it on.

I guess I don't need a monorail as I really do need light and fast and don't do portraits in LF or still life shots at all. If I ever have proper studio space I could see getting a mint P2 as it is in my opinion, one of the most beautifully engineered and manufactured cameras in history.

[Drew Wiley]

Kodachrome - the Sinar F's (not P's) need LESS of a tripod than most folders, not only because its's far easier to center-balance than any folder, but because you simply don't need a tripod head, though I'll admit I don't use tripod heads for any kind of wilderness use. No need once you learn how to properly adjust tripod legs just like surveyors did it atop remote mtn summits for decades. But the rail clamp allows you a fast compromise technique easier to learn. The reason I currently carry an Ebony on long backpacks instead of my Sinar is that I've simply gotten older, lazier, and appreciate more room in my pack for something called "Food", so compactness has become a greater priority. Depending on fishing luck, which happens to coincide with morning and evening light when photography is also often best, has dictated more packaged food in the pack. I just returned from eleven days of backpacking in the Wind River Range in Wyoming, and yeah, I ate a bit too
well this time.

[analoguey]

@stradibarius at the home page of this site, there's a long article on using a horseman optical bench camera/ monorail in the field - and the one thing mentioned there is that the camera is just One part of the total weight you carry - which includes tripod, film holders, film, black cloth etc.,

Drew has pretty much covered this, but I'd still encourage you to check that post out.

/I only have a monorail and my farthest use has been 500m from the car. Hand-carried (I havent really got a good cabinet/bag for it)

[Timothy Blomquist]

I'll be taking my Sinar P 8x10 with a 240mm G-Claron and the 150mm SW Nikkor out for a shoot this coming Saturday. For the two locations this time, it's only about 150 feet or more from the Land Rover. Despite this short distance, I'm bringing the wife and 15 year old son. Good cheap labor is hard to find these days, so always enlist family :D.

[Ari]

Respectfully, no single camera can be ideal for all applications.

The Technikardan 45-S is awful close to perfect.

[Adamphotoman]

I absolutely luv the Norma. Like andreios said.
I think if I had spare $ I would look at an Ebony but I have a Norma so I use it.

Ari is a friend so I am going to to bug him tongue and cheek.
Ari Did you say the camera was awful? or awful Close to ...

Actually we are all wired differently.

Whenever I use a field I wish for the monorail adjustments.
Others I know have warmed up to the field adjustments. I just cannot.

[Ed Richards]

While it can cost as much as an f2, a Sinar pan-tilt head makes the Sinar really fast to use.

[Drew Wiley]

I'd rather do macro work any day of the week with a monorail rather than with a folding field camera, but I have learned how to successfully do it with any of em.
Same goes for architecture.

[wiggywag]

You could also consider the Arca Swiss F-line. It is very portable and has all the benefits of a monorail :-)

[Robert Langham]

Sinar F with bag bellows and 90mm Super Angulon.

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