Betax #4 shutter size

[Mark Sawyer]

I have a crappy old Betax #4 shutter and a set of crappy old Turner Reich 12/19/25" lenses. The crappy old lenses don't even come close to fitting the crappy old shutter, but I noticed on crappy old ebay that some of the crappy old Turner Reichs are mounted in crappy old Betax #4 shutters. Does anybody know if the crappy old Betax #4's were made in different sizes, or were the crappy old Turner Reich's made in different sizes?

[Brian Vuillemenot]

I have no crappy idea.

[Ernest Purdum]

Turner-Reichs were available in differing shutters as well as in barrels. This was before the reasonable degree of standardization that came along later, so they necessarily had differing threads. I just looked up an old listing which shows 12" T-R lenses in Regno, "Auto", Universal, Compound , Optimo and Acme shutters. Interestingly, your choice varied the price by only about 10%.

[Mark Sawyer]

Thanks Ernest- kinda what I expected. Looks like I need to find another Compound shutter for my crappy lenses. (The one I have was shot when I bought the Turner Reich for $25.) I wouldn't bother normally, but I have these cute little B&J wide angle elements that fit in the same shutter, and together they make a really nice semi-casket set. I was hoping the Betax #4 would fit...

[Nathan Smith]

What exactly is wrong with your Compound shutter - is it repairable?
Same question for the Betax #4? What in particular leads you to pronounce it 'crappy'?
These are both good quality shutters, reliable when cleaned, lubed, and adjusted properly.
Of course, they are what they are ... no 1/500 sec speeds and often no flash sync, but your lenses already fit the Compound. That would seem to make it worth repairing unless parts are literally broken. On the other hand, if you want to get rid of those crappy old things let me know :^)

[Mark Sawyer]

Hey, Nathan! Don't know if the Compound is repairable or not; it works on Bulb, sorta works on Time (sometimes have to hit it several times to close), and all other speeds best decribed as "instant." Some of the aperture blades were replaced with what appears to be cut film, but the opening is pretty symmetrical. And the aperture scale is missing. Enough problems I don't think it's worth repairing.

I always liked the Betax shutters (never had trouble with the several I've owned), and I have a basket-case betax #4 with a Turner Reich triple convertable scale on it. I figured the most likely solution to all this would be to find a #4 that fit, and put my aperture scale on it. (My betax #4 fits the elements in the rear, but the front is too large.) But it sounds like all Betaxes are the same size, and the T-R lenses varied in size. Could be wrong, though, and I'll check any betaxes I run across... That complicated enough? : )

It would be a neat little set, mostly because with the B&J lenses, you'd have an 8" along with the 12", 19", and 25". And you can mix the B&J and T-R elements to get other lengths, probably of really crappy quality! (Actually, the 12" T-R is pretty good quality, the 19" and 25" okay for contact printing, and the B&J I've never used...) Such an odd lot I'd feel bad trying to sell it. But if you're ever passing through Tucson and have an interesting trade...

[Nathan Smith]

Mark - the Compound is an odd beast, as I recall, the B & T settings don't require the shutter to be cocked (cocking in in B or T will damage it if you try hard enough) and the original aperature blades were made of some sort of paper! Maybe some repairman, sorry, repair-person, substituted another material when that got damaged or deteriorated.

Check out S.K. Grimes page on the Compound (http://www.skgrimes.com/compound/) shutter.

I guess the lenses were set in mounts according to the shutters they were using at the time. So your Turner-Reich lenses would probably fit in most Compound shutters of the same size. Too bad they're not marked #3, #4, #5, etc., like the Betax's and Ilex's (or is that Betaxi and Ilexi?) it would make it a lot easier to figure that out from a blurry auction photo.

I may be in Tucson some time next year actually. I'll let you know if I come up with any enticing items for trade.

[Ole Tjugen]

Some Compound sizes (from 1962 Compur repair manual):

Compound 3-X Tube 7: Cell thread M55.69 x 40 tpi, Mount M60 x 29 1/13 tpi, diameter 87mm.

Compound 4-X Tube 9: Cell thread M62.2 x 40 tpi, Mount M65.9 x 29 1/13 tpi, diameter 106mm.

Compound 4-X Tube 10/II: Cell thread M67.92 x 40 tpi, Mount M76.7 x 29 1/13 tpi, diameter 106mm.

Compound 5-X Tube 12/I: Cell thread M82.77 x 40 tpi, Mount M90 x 1mm, diameter 125.5mm.

Compound 5-X Tube 12/II: Same, but slightly longer.

The odd thread pitches are the result of using a fixed rise angle instead of a fixed thread pitch!

[Nathan Smith]

Thanks Ole - so, if you need a Compound #4 and you somehow are able to ascertain from the auction seller (who "doesn't know anything about cameras") that it's a #4 , and you win the bid ...
... you still have a 50/50 chance that your lenses will fit.

[Ole Tjugen]

Fastest speed on Compound #3 is 1/100, #4: 1/75, #5: 1/50. That solves half the problem. For which tube version, you'll have to ask the seller to measure it. Or trust to luck, and maybe have an excuse to buy yet another old lens without shutter :)